My problem with Bill Belichick as a coach

[supafly]

Tony is not mad, he is just confused by your vague comments. You calling our draftees abysmal failures?
2014
Round2 Jamie Collins
Round2 Aaron Dobson
Round3 Logan Ryan
Round3 Duron Harmon
Round4 Josh Boyce
Round7 Michael Buchanan
Round7 Steve Beauharnais
"Above AVG"
2014
Round1 29 Dominique Easley
Round2 62 Jimmy Garoppolo
Round4 105 Bryan Stork
Round4 130 James White
Round4 140 Cameron Fleming
"Nothing but a 35m per yr QB but not a huge failure"
2015
Round 1: DT Malcom Brown, Texas
Round 2: SS Jordan Richards, Stanford
Round 3: DE Geneo Grissom, Oklahoma
Round 4: DE Trey Flowers, Arkansas
Round 4: OG Tre' Jackson, Florida State
Round 4: OG Shaq Mason, Georgia Tech
Round 5: LS Joe Cardona, Navy
"Only three quality starters but not a huge failure"
2016
Round2 Cyrus Jones
Round3 Joe Thuney
Round3 Jacoby Brissett
Round3 Vincent Valentine
Round4 Malcolm Mitchell
Round6 Kamu Grugier-Hill
Round6 Elandon Roberts
Round6 Ted Karras
Round7 Devin Lucien
" abysmal failures everywhere"
2017
Round3 Derek Rivers
Round3 Antonio Garcia
Round4 Deatrich Wise Jr.
Round6 Conor McDermott
"2 out of 4, avg"
2018
Round1 Isaiah Wynn
Round1 Sony Michel
Round2 Duke Dawson
Round5 Ja'Whaun Bentley
Round6 Christian Sam
Round6 Braxton Berrios
Round7 Danny Etling
Round7 Keion Crossen
Round7 Ryan Izzo TE
"two games in, might as well call it failure"

2 out 6 is not enough to call it abysmally failed.
Your "statement" is as vague and useless as it gets.

"Some is better, some is worse, you know, I am not saying I am good, but you are wrong to say I am not good"

I’m going to guess that your explanation is not quite where Tony was going with things. Just a hunch.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Tony is not mad, he is just confused by your vague comments. You calling our draftees abysmal failures?
2014
Round2 Jamie Collins
Round2 Aaron Dobson
Round3 Logan Ryan
Round3 Duron Harmon
Round4 Josh Boyce
Round7 Michael Buchanan
Round7 Steve Beauharnais
"Above AVG"
2014
Round1 29 Dominique Easley
Round2 62 Jimmy Garoppolo
Round4 105 Bryan Stork
Round4 130 James White
Round4 140 Cameron Fleming
"Nothing but a 35m per yr QB but not a huge failure"
2015
Round 1: DT Malcom Brown, Texas
Round 2: SS Jordan Richards, Stanford
Round 3: DE Geneo Grissom, Oklahoma
Round 4: DE Trey Flowers, Arkansas
Round 4: OG Tre' Jackson, Florida State
Round 4: OG Shaq Mason, Georgia Tech
Round 5: LS Joe Cardona, Navy
"Only three quality starters but not a huge failure"
2016
Round2 Cyrus Jones
Round3 Joe Thuney
Round3 Jacoby Brissett
Round3 Vincent Valentine
Round4 Malcolm Mitchell
Round6 Kamu Grugier-Hill
Round6 Elandon Roberts
Round6 Ted Karras
Round7 Devin Lucien
" abysmal failures everywhere"
2017
Round3 Derek Rivers
Round3 Antonio Garcia
Round4 Deatrich Wise Jr.
Round6 Conor McDermott
"2 out of 4, avg"
2018
Round1 Isaiah Wynn
Round1 Sony Michel
Round2 Duke Dawson
Round5 Ja'Whaun Bentley
Round6 Christian Sam
Round6 Braxton Berrios
Round7 Danny Etling
Round7 Keion Crossen
Round7 Ryan Izzo TE
"two games in, might as well call it failure"

2 out 6 is not enough to call it abysmally failed.
Your "statement" is as vague and useless as it gets.

"Some is better, some is worse, you know, I am not saying I am good, but you are wrong to say I am not good"

I definitely did NOT. Read the post again. Only someone w an agenda or is touched would come away thinking that.

You looked dumb rn tbh.

I actually identified most of the guys Patriot-Type Players months before the draft.

I'll spell it out for you since you seem slow. I was speaking to the many failures we've seen employed for years at various NFL positions like GM, coaches etc.

Crystal clear in the post but you're special I bet.

 

[supafly]

There was a forum that got shutdown years ago that had 2-3 brilliant posters that used to coach football that went on to do other things.

Did their names happen to be Saban, Ferentz, and Dimitroff, because we’ve been trying to track them down for awhile?

 

[edkk323]

I’m going to guess that your explanation is not quite where Tony was going with things. Just a hunch.

I said fans do not know enough to make good decision on drafting players.
BaconGrundleCandy disagreed and thought he was pretty at it.
Tony said BaconGrundleCandy was full of it.
BaconGrundleCandy started "Some is better, some is worse, you know, I am not saying I am good, but you are wrong to say I am not good"

Am I missing something? It is hard to argue cuz BaconGrundleCandy is staying vague.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I said fans do not know enough to make good decision on drafting players.
BaconGrundleCandy disagreed and thought he was pretty at it.
Tony said BaconGrundleCandy was full of it.
BaconGrundleCandy started "Some is better, some is worse, you know, I am not saying I am good, but you are wrong to say I am not good"

Am I missing something? It is hard to argue cuz BaconGrundleCandy is staying vague.

Lol.

I hope you're drunk for your sake.

 

[edkk323]

Lol.

I hope you're drunk for your sake.

Me: Fans IN GENERAL do not know enough to make good decision on drafting players.
(BaconGrundleCandy entering the scene out of nowhere)
B: You are FKING wrong, I am pretty good at.
Tony: Yeah right, B.
B: I have seen a lot of abysmal failures. Some fans can do better than some GM, some fans can be worse than some GM"
(BaconGrundleCandy starts invalidating edkk323's statement by introducing drunkenness.)
- ongoing-

 

[supafly]

Me: Fans IN GENERAL do not know enough to make good decision on drafting players.
(BaconGrundleCandy entering the scene out of nowhere)
B: You are FKING wrong, I am pretty good at.
Tony: Yeah right, B.
B: I have seen a lot of abysmal failures. Some fans can do better than some GM, some fans can be worse than some GM"
(BaconGrundleCandy starts invalidating edkk323's statement by introducing drunkenness.)
- ongoing-

Are the abysmal failures exclusive to the New England Patriots, though? What that the suggestion? I dunno, but I’m skeptical.

At any rate—who cares? This thread is a failure. Actually, it’s an abysmal failure.

 

[supafly]

how do you like them apples

Lightly polished, and carefully placed between two big breasts.

(okay, I’m done now)

 

[edkk323]

Lightly polished, and carefully placed between two big breasts.

(okay, I’m done now)

Like men boobs?

 

[supafly]

Like men boobs?

What?!! No. Boobs, not moobs.

Not that I’m judging either way, but you get a big red “X” for that comment.

 

[Deus Irae]

I will give a good example. I am a super homer of BB and how he operates this organization.

He benched Malcolm Butler for the SB because of the "rumored" tardiness. If you run the team for one season ONLY, of course you should do anything you can to win. But if you run your team like a business for 20 or 30 years, you do not compromise your core value at anytime.

It is same situation as businesses cutting to get higher short term profit.

It hurts to lose the SB but BB won't trade it for his philosophy.

Your example is terrible, sorry.

 

[BobDigital]

If there's no other coach you'd want and you're not looking to change him, WTF is your point?

By "change him" do you mean get another coach in here or get him to change the way he does things slightly? If you're asking if I want another coach then no. If you're if I would like him to do things a bit differently than yes.

As to why I am bringing this up. I think BB is worth talking about. Simple as that. Just because I don't want him replaced does that mean I can never criticize him? I think it's a point worth discussing.

I don't know what the **** you want...winning team every year, playoffs, Super Bowls. I don't understand women either.

I’ll just keep whistling past the graveyard until it ends.

I want my team to do better. What else could any fan want? I think we can talk about the potential flaws of our great sport icons in this area. Even those who brought home multiple championships. I find such discussion interesting. A Just because someone accomplishes a great feat doesn't mean we can't discuss potential short comings.

personally I find a guy like BB fascinating and want to talk about him. For instance, here's a thought. Can a coach like BB exist who isn't a control freak that wants everything done his way and has a massive ego? I think that is an interesting topic. Perhaps you don't. I think sometimes geniuses have the biggest blind spots and I find that to be interesting. Does BB have such a blind spot too? I think that's a debate worth having.

 

[TommyD4207]

I think what is needed is some perspective. As in who had these 'great' defenses other than the Pats and what was their record? It's all fun and games and heavy flow days complaining about a perceived problem. But what team or team with a great defense has a better record than the Pats?
.

Winner.

85 Bears, 1 SB win. 00 Ravens, 1 SB win, 02 Bucs, 1 SB win, 13 Seahawks, 1 SB win, 15 Broncos, 1 SB win.

80s/90s 49ers, 5 SB wins, 90s Cowboys, 3 SB wins, 00s/10s Patriots, 5 SB wins and counting.

 

[edkk323]

What?!! No. Boobs, not moobs.

Not that I’m judging either way, but you get a big red “X” for that comment.

If that is not the case, I prefer more than one pair holding my apple.

 

[luuked]

I just read through the rewatching SB 49 thread. If not for the dumbest play call, the greatest individual defensive play and greatest comeback in SB history, the Patriots would be 0-5 in Super Bowls since two weeks into the 2nd term of George W. Bush.

How differently would we be looking at the last 13 seasons? How differently would we view the legacy of Bill Belichick if Marshawn Lynch had just been allowed to run it in or the Falcons had just run the ball and kicked a FG at the end of SB 51?

I have a problem with control and authority freaks such as Bill. I have a problem with anyone thinking they’re worthy of having total power over anything. I’ve been leery of the Czar Bill setup from the beginning which only got worse when he was left to his own counsel after strong underlings like Pioli, Weiss, and Crennel left and replaced by unaccomplished college assistants who owe Czar Bill their careers. Everyone needs someone who will tell them that they are wrong.

There is no way to prove it, but I totally believe it. If in January 2009 Bill Belichick had left to become the Grand Imperial Poobah of the Kc Chiefs leaving Scott Pioli behind as the Patriots GM and Josh McDaniels as HC and rehiring Romeo Crennel as the DC, the Patriots would have won as many games and won more championships in the last nine years than they have with Czar Bill at the helm. You can’t prove they would not have either.

I mean you have pretty much proven at the start of your second sentence that you don't understand football much. Deciding not to run against a goal line defense was not a bad decision.

The irony here is that you are claiming that it was dumb luck when in reality the ending of SB49 alone should put BB into the HoF because his situational thinking and organizational foresight won us this ****ing SB.

He not only out-coached Carrol during that critical situation by staying calm and not taking a timeout he also out-prepared the Seahawks by having a goalline defense with 3 corners ready.

And if you put those two things together you can see why people call him a genius. Carrol saw the GL defense coming and correctly made a playcall to take advantage of it. What he and the rest of the Seahawks staff didn't see in all the stress between plays (because the Pats purposefully didn't take a timeout and the Hawks wanted to preserve their TO) was the additional corner. The rest is history.

Some people just have irrational expectations. They hear "best of all time" and it somehow means that the person has to be right about everything. Perfection is maybe something to strive for but certainly not something to expect. In reality what makes people at the very elite level stand out over their peers are the details and nuances which consistently provide them with an edge.


So already the second sentence of your post shows that you are clueless about the context of one the bigger plays in Patriots history and seemingly have fantasy football level insight into the sport. The rest of your post makes you look even worse.

 

[Joker]

FakinMongrelDandy sure is THE most arrogant, narcissistically crippled asshat I've ever encountered on ANY sports board in my 20 plus years of running sites and posting on them. He makes a statement that "anybody can do this job better than people who do it professionally"(sic) and then proceeds to call anybody who disagrees with him "touched","drunk", "special to be honest" etc etc.

Making a statement of fact that is in reality an OPINION, unknowingly and then mocking, deriding and attempting to humiliate other board members that have the temerity to disagree with him, THAT is a pathology. Abusing the dislike button like a little girl throwing a tantrum only exacerbates this nuttery.

I've seen this before, back when the KFFL site was up. A total free-for-all of insistent flamethrowers constantly mocking and attacking anybody who disagreed with their "hot takes". It folded. Patsfans has grown consistently over the decades through the hard work and dedication of Ian Logue, a Patriots fan who wanted a place where Patriots fans could gather and communicate in fellowship.

I mean I said his post was ridiculous, thats really not that bad & I don't think I was the only one.Wrong.His post wasn't "ridiculous!", it was his FAN OPINION and YOU are the only one openly mocking him. Now why is that?

I also don't think I'm "above the fray" or w/e you want to call it.call it snobbery or arrogance, haughtiness, elitism.Fits you like a body glove I don't think like that.of course not beautiful queen, you're the fairest of them all That said you can look at the re-watch thread or other post & see analysis of a play, player I don't see elsewhere. Tbh most will just post a tweet of someone else w nothing else. That's not ****y, it just is what it is.it sure is...YOU, KNOWER OF THINGS, have come here to instruct us poor dumb slobs that have never heard of all22 or NFL.com's Coaches Film. The brilliance...it BURNS!!

Like I said there are many people that don't work for a team that are absolutely as good if not better than some in those positions. empirical, PROVABLE evidence please..NAME them.

There was a forum that got shutdown years ago that had 2-3 brilliant posters that used to coach football that went on to do other things. Twitter has a ton of brilliant football minds, some of which worked for teams or got a job working for a team starting out as an amateur. and so, what areas of expertise are these "TONS" engaged in RIGHT NOW? I think this "TON!" is a figment of YOUR warped imagination, a figment YOU use to buttress your fragile self esteem.

I just think it's weak to think just bc someone doesn't work for a team means they couldn't coach or draft good players.Yeah, I think it's weak to think that just because someone doesn't work for the electric company, they can't work on downed lines safely, or just because someone isn't a doctor they can't perform operations and prescribe medicine or just because they aren't dentists they can't administer novocaine and pull teeth, saw gums and perform implants. There's a TON of people who can do thisAgain I have zero interest in coaching or being a scout. The latter gets paid **** for the most part & aren't listened to anyway. I've had success they way I do it.define your "success' in quantifiable, provable terms...I'll wait with bated breath.

NFL is most definitely a "good ole boys" network.total bull. It's a billionaires boys club. All that changes is the wealth of the billionaires involved. It's changing a little but it still has a ton of that in it.Impossibly naive, impossible to prove.Just mental masturbation meant to get YOU off.

With that you get a ton of people automatically excluded no matter how talented they are.sounds like the bleating of a poor, iddle widdle lambie pie that got rejected by Gillette Stadium security. On this point I will concur...Kraft should be able to hire parking lot attendants that actually have a high school education, with the price HE charges to park.

 

[edkk323]

Your example is terrible, sorry.

whatever

 

[luuked]

I'll never understand wtf BB was doing week 17 2015 in a win and clinch HFA against a 5 win Dolphin team. It was like he did not want to win the game. I know the team was really dinged up but HFA VS the Broncos was crucial.

There are multiple ex-players on record (the latest being Mayo on QuickSlants) that BB went into the game saying we will "run the ball" until the offense (including the OL and their issues with run blocking) figures that part out.

He purposefully limited the playbook on offense because according to Mayo he knew that they would not fare well in the playoffs if they could not find a way to run effectively.

 

[luuked]

3 'n out was the goal of those defenses
More recently, the goal is "hold 'em to a FG" (or under 40 in the SB)

If you read new the Lombardi book you will realize that limiting 4 point plays and playing more aggressively in the final 30 yards where the playbook is thinner and everything becomes more horizontal has been a staple of BBs defensive philosophy since before the 90s. As is the believe that pressure is more important than sacks and containment of QBs in the redzone has more significance than hunting them down.

This is nothing new. Even if some people like to glorify the early 2000s teams and pretend that BB changed his philosophy after some of the defensive pillars from those teams retired. Polian kickstarting the rule changes to favor the offense and by now castrate defenses had a bigger impact on everything than anything else.

 

[luuked]

I would straight up swap out Adam Butler for someone like Vincent Valentine.

I love how you want to actually take out one of the players who has been playing pretty well and if anything deserves an even larger role.