Is our defense good enough for a SB run?

[condon84]

1 sack in 6 games = 3 sacks for one season. Posters are complaining about Pats EDGE rushers with 8.5 sacks (Landry) so far this year. Phillips is nothing special, maybe above average?

It's not just about sacks, it's about pressuring the QB. We have to speed up the QB and not let him sit back there.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2025/defense_advanced.htm

Jaelan is top 10. More than Bonito, more than Will Anderson.

Landry is 32nd and Chiasson is 43rd.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Every time I've watched the Eagles since they got him he's been disruptive.

Eagles' Jaelan Phillips gets premium contract update after Dolphins trade

Philadelphia appears to have gotten itself a good one.

sports.yahoo.com

He has 27 pressures, 10 QB hits, a sack and three tackles for loss in six games with the Eagles.

It's not just about sacks, it's about pressuring the QB. We have to speed up the QB and not let him sit back there.

It's a subjective stat. What a scorer thinks is "pressure" could be a slight inconvenience to the QB. What stats aren't subjective and actually tangible are QB hits, knock downs, sacks and forced fumbles. Both Chaisson and Landry beats Phillips in that department. If a player is actually putting heat consistently on a QB, they will get the stats I've highlighted above.

Jaelan is top 10. More than Bonito, more than Will Anderson.

Landry is 32nd and Chiasson is 43rd.

To even compare Phillips to Bonito or Anderson is an insult to them. They both are clearly superior players and proof the "pressure" stat is seriously flawed.

By the way, this website has Barmore down as only having 10 "pressures" to NFL Next Gen having him leading all DT's at 46. That would put him tied with the leader Myles Garrett. LOL. I knew it didn't make sense. Zach Allen leads all with 43.

 

[condon84]

It's a subjective stat. What a scorer thinks is "pressure" could be a slight inconvenience to the QB. What stats aren't subjective and actually tangible are QB hits, knock downs, sacks and forced fumbles. Both Chaisson and Landry beats Phillips in that department. If a player is actually putting heat consistently on a QB, they will get the stats I've highlighted above.

To even compare Phillips to Bonito or Anderson is an insult to them. They both are clearly superior players and proof the "pressure" stat is seriously flawed.

By the way, this website has Barmore down as only having 10 "pressures" to NFL Next Gen having him leading all DT's at 46. That would put him tied with the leader Myles Garrett. LOL. I knew it didn't make sense. Zach Allen leads all with 43.

Declaring a stat is subjective because it doesn't fit your argument is wild.

How pressure is measured - Next Gen Stats: Introduction to pressure probability.

Pressure is defined as a pass-rush play where the rusher affects the quarterback before the pass is thrown. A pass rush becomes a pressure when pressure probability exceeds 75 percent. This includes sacks, QB hits, QB hurries and other plays where the pass rusher comes into close proximity with the quarterback; it will also include plays where the pass rusher has a free path to the QB or is winning the matchup with the blocker.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Declaring a stat is subjective because it doesn't fit your argument is wild.

How pressure is measured - Next Gen Stats: Introduction to pressure probability.

Pressure is defined as a pass-rush play where the rusher affects the quarterback before the pass is thrown. A pass rush becomes a pressure when pressure probability exceeds 75 percent. This includes sacks, QB hits, QB hurries and other plays where the pass rusher comes into close proximity with the quarterback; it will also include plays where the pass rusher has a free path to the QB or is winning the matchup with the blocker.

You're reaching badly for Phillips here....and the stat is subjective as the definition states.

Next Gen has Barmore pressuring the QB 46 times to Pro Football Reference with 10. Therefore, it is subjective.

 

[Vindicate]

It's a subjective stat. What a scorer thinks is "pressure" could be a slight inconvenience to the QB. What stats aren't subjective and actually tangible are QB hits, knock downs, sacks and forced fumbles. Both Chaisson and Landry beats Phillips in that department. If a player is actually putting heat consistently on a QB, they will get the stats I've highlighted above.

To even compare Phillips to Bonito or Anderson is an insult to them. They both are clearly superior players and proof the "pressure" stat is seriously flawed.

By the way, this website has Barmore down as only having 10 "pressures" to NFL Next Gen having him leading all DT's at 46. That would put him tied with the leader Myles Garrett. LOL. I knew it didn't make sense. Zach Allen leads all with 43.

According to Next Gen, their own definition of pressure:

"Pressure is defined as a pass-rush play where the rusher affects the quarterback before the pass is thrown. A pass rush becomes a pressure when pressure probability exceeds 75 percent. This includes sacks, QB hits, QB hurries and other plays where the pass rusher comes into close proximity with the quarterback; it will also include plays where the pass rusher has a free path to the QB or is winning the matchup with the blocker."

Bolded portion is where you could really inflate numbers if you wanted, it seems.

Honestly it's nauseating for me to read this **** because it's not my forte, but for those interested:

Next Gen Stats: Introduction to pressure probability

 

[TheRainMaker]

According to Next Gen, their own definition of pressure:

"Pressure is defined as a pass-rush play where the rusher affects the quarterback before the pass is thrown. A pass rush becomes a pressure when pressure probability exceeds 75 percent. This includes sacks, QB hits, QB hurries and other plays where the pass rusher comes into close proximity with the quarterback; it will also include plays where the pass rusher has a free path to the QB or is winning the matchup with the blocker."

Bolded portion is where you could really inflate numbers if you wanted, it seems.

Honestly it's nauseating for me to read this **** because it's not my forte, but for those interested:

Next Gen Stats: Introduction to pressure probability

All I care about are results. A QB has that timer going and can get the ball out by the time a defender is in "close proximity". Again, what Next Gen thinks is "pressure" may not be to the QB. For example, Josh Allen casually rolled out of the pocket by the "pressure" and threw a TD last Sunday. Carlton Davis had a free path to Allen, but couldn't sack him. How about when Maye had defenders actually hanging on him during their first meeting, but Maye shrugged it off and threw big plays to Diggs? In the end, nobody should care the defender "almost" had him.

My example of above showing how ridiculous of an argument for Phillips is because he has more "pressures" than Nick Bonito and Will Anderson. Seriously?

 

[Vindicate]

All I care about are results. A QB has that timer going and can get the ball out by the time a defender is in "close proximity". Again, what Next Gen thinks is "pressure" may not be to the QB. For example, Josh Allen casually rolled out of the pocket by the "pressure" and threw a TD last Sunday. Carlton Davis had a free path to Allen, but couldn't sack him. How about when Maye had defenders actually hanging on him during their first meeting, but Maye shrugged it off and threw big plays to Diggs? In the end, nobody should care the defender "almost" had him.

My example of above showing how ridiculous of an argument for Phillips is because he has more "pressures" than Nick Bonito and Will Anderson. Seriously?

Joe Burrow quite literally has said he doesn't care or think about a sack on 3rd down, which kinda crystalizes what you're talking about.

 

[condon84]

You're reaching badly for Phillips here....and the stat is subjective as the definition states.

Next Gen has Barmore pressuring the QB 46 times to Pro Football Reference with 10. Therefore, it is subjective.

I've seen enough Eagles games to understand how good of a player Phillips is. If you think Landry or Chaisson are better players then we'll agree to disagree.

 

[condon84]

All I care about are results. A QB has that timer going and can get the ball out by the time a defender is in "close proximity". Again, what Next Gen thinks is "pressure" may not be to the QB. For example, Josh Allen casually rolled out of the pocket by the "pressure" and threw a TD last Sunday. Carlton Davis had a free path to Allen, but couldn't sack him. How about when Maye had defenders actually hanging on him during their first meeting, but Maye shrugged it off and threw big plays to Diggs? In the end, nobody should care the defender "almost" had him.

My example of above showing how ridiculous of an argument for Phillips is because he has more "pressures" than Nick Bonito and Will Anderson. Seriously?

Also i want to add this, Belichick never cared for the sacks statistics. He was more focused on pressure -

Bill Belichick explains sneakily strategic philosophy on sacks

Bill Belichick seems borderline apathetic toward sacks. The New England Patriots coach doesn't seem to measure the success of his defensive linemen with sacks, instead focusing on pressure. The result seems to be that players don't rack up sacks in the Patriots' system.…

patriotswire.usatoday.com

"I think if you look at the overall passing game, the statistic that stands out the most in terms of correlation is pressure. So pressure on the quarterback leads to more bad plays than sacks do, in terms of turnovers unless you have strip sacks, obviously. That's the No. 1. After that, pressures cause bad throws and potentially turnovers."

 

[Huckleberry1]

35 people said it is??
Come on, this D has been way overrated. I know everyone hates the strength of schedule arguments, but when you face a bunch of sub-JAGs at QB, you can't properly evaluate a D. Anyone with ball-knowing eyes can see that we really suck at pass rushing, and have all year. Landry has been washed for a while. Chaisson always disappears. Our secondary is not good at pass D as a unit - especially at Safety and vs. TE's. And our D has not been tested in crunch time vs. top opponents yet. So, this shows they don't have an enforcer or blue-chipper at DE you can lean on. So, no, it is not good enough to win a SB.
And we absolutely will not go to the SB this year. We MAY (if luck strikes) get to the CG, but it'll be a learning season.

You don't have to be better on defense than anyone else, you just have to be better than your opponent that day. With the defense at full strength and with Drake Maye the Patriots can beat any team in this tournament this year.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Also i want to add this, Belichick never cared for the sacks statistics. He was more focused on pressure -

Bill Belichick explains sneakily strategic philosophy on sacks

Bill Belichick seems borderline apathetic toward sacks. The New England Patriots coach doesn't seem to measure the success of his defensive linemen with sacks, instead focusing on pressure. The result seems to be that players don't rack up sacks in the Patriots' system.…

patriotswire.usatoday.com

"I think if you look at the overall passing game, the statistic that stands out the most in terms of correlation is pressure. So pressure on the quarterback leads to more bad plays than sacks do, in terms of turnovers unless you have strip sacks, obviously. That's the No. 1. After that, pressures cause bad throws and potentially turnovers."

Yep, I remember this....and I don't believe him. The media was asking Bill why the pass rush sucked in 2018. They finished with a putrid 30 sacks on the season. He responded with this to stick up for them because he doesn't throw players/units under the bus.

It sure seemed like PFF started pushing this stat after Bill said this.

 

[TommyD4207]

Yep, I remember this....and I don't believe him. The media was asking Bill why the pass rush sucked in 2018. They finished with a putrid 30 sacks on the season. He responded with this to stick up for them because he doesn't throw players/units under the bus.

It sure seemed like PFF started pushing this stat after Bill said this.

They did win a super bowl that year.
Maybe he knew what he was talking about.

 

[TheRainMaker]

They did win a super bowl that year.
Maybe he knew what he was talking about.

Had the offense not bailed them out in the AFCCG, there's no Super Bowl. And it didn't really work out for Bill since then having bad players on defense.

 

[Huckleberry1]

We should have pulled the trigger on Jaelan Phillips.

A 3rd round pick for half a season? No thanks, this team still has. A lot of work to get done, they can't afford to throwaway Day 2 picks.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Depends on your perspective.
Phillips disappears a lot, and is hurt a lot. Can you get his production going forward from a top-100 pick you have under control for the next 4 years for cheap?

I'm going to support Vrabel not panicking and deciding to keep and accumulate draft capital to build the team going forward until he ****s it up.

Vrabel's philosophy is to develop players, and try to fill holes with free agency. I think many of this years rookies are going to make a big jump next year, and we will really know in 2 years if he's got it right, as all of those rookies from this class will heading towards their second deals. I believe he knows what he's doing, and has the right coaches and players to turn them into a great team.

 

[Huckleberry1]

lol @ such splitting of semantic hairs

He does this in every thread. He makes a statement about a player and then agrees with the person challenging his statement.

I'm not saying Barmore sucks I'm saying he isn't any good.

I agree, Barmore is a good player, I just wish he was better.

They need to replace Barmore and get Williams some help.

Defensive tackle isn't a need because they have Williams and Barmore.

I agree, Barmore isn't effective, they really need help at DL......


................

.................

 

[Vindicate]

Had the offense not bailed them out in the AFCCG, there's no Super Bowl. And it didn't really work out for Bill since then having bad players on defense.

Also, a point being made earlier is, who is determining what pressure is: yes, I trust Bill to actually know what to identify as real pressure vs. just checking a few numbered boxes. Bill could probably easily decipher when a player is getting meaningful pressure, and also utilize that pressure to generate a sack from... Flowers. From another player.

Pressure is a stat that is truly in the eye of the beholder, and in how they both identify and utilize it. Bill, for all his faults towards the end, could identify defensive stuff pretty goddamn well.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Also, a point being made earlier is, who is determining what pressure is: yes, I trust Bill to actually know what to identify as real pressure vs. just checking a few numbered boxes. Bill could probably easily decipher when a player is getting meaningful pressure, and also utilize that pressure to generate a sack from... Flowers. From another player.

Pressure is a stat that is truly in the eye of the beholder, and in how they both identify and utilize it. Bill, for all his faults towards the end, could identify defensive stuff pretty goddamn well.

I still think he was just sticking up for his players as the media was baiting him, but didn’t take it. The pass rush was really bad that season. Had the offense not won the game in overtime, we’re having a completely different conversation of how the defense collapsed.

Now we know why Chandler Jones and Matt Judon took the rest of the year off after November came around. Bill told them “you’ve already got 10 sacks on the year. It’s time to cool it!”

 

[Ring 6]

Declaring a stat is subjective because it doesn't fit your argument is wild.

How pressure is measured - Next Gen Stats: Introduction to pressure probability.

Pressure is defined as a pass-rush play where the rusher affects the quarterback before the pass is thrown. A pass rush becomes a pressure when pressure probability exceeds 75 percent. This includes sacks, QB hits, QB hurries and other plays where the pass rusher comes into close proximity with the quarterback; it will also include plays where the pass rusher has a free path to the QB or is winning the matchup with the blocker.

But that is subjective.
Who determines 75% probability? How is there even a probability facet? Someone is deciding it’s 75% likely the Qb was “affected”.
“Close proximity” is subjective and the difference between in your face to alter the throw and being driven past the Qb, or the qb took a slight step to avoid, are not quantified in a “pressure” number. “Has a free path” and “is winning the matchup” are also subjective.
Also I think the definition you used is not from the source you gave the stats from and they have very different numbers, like Barmores as the other poster noted.

 

[Ring 6]

Also i want to add this, Belichick never cared for the sacks statistics. He was more focused on pressure -

Bill Belichick explains sneakily strategic philosophy on sacks

Bill Belichick seems borderline apathetic toward sacks. The New England Patriots coach doesn't seem to measure the success of his defensive linemen with sacks, instead focusing on pressure. The result seems to be that players don't rack up sacks in the Patriots' system.…

patriotswire.usatoday.com

"I think if you look at the overall passing game, the statistic that stands out the most in terms of correlation is pressure. So pressure on the quarterback leads to more bad plays than sacks do, in terms of turnovers unless you have strip sacks, obviously. That's the No. 1. After that, pressures cause bad throws and potentially turnovers."

He wasnt saying he didn’t care about sacks. He was saying the best play for a defense is making the qb throw under duress and making a mistake. An int is better than a sack.
A stat on being in the vicinity of the qb or “winning your battle” doesn’t capture that.

I think the discrepancy is real pressure that impacts a play vs a statistic that includes many (the majority) of plays where there really wasn’t any significant impact, you just got close.