Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[DaBruinz]

I've seen bad QB's. Drew was not anywhere near the "bad" category.

Regarding Bill in Cleveland... IMO he wasn't ready back then for prime time as a head coach in this league.

I think Bill was very close to being ready. Had they brought him to Baltimore with them, him and Ozzy Newsome would have done wonders IMHO and Bill would never have been with the Pats. But Art Modell was too worried about kissing the ass of the reporters in Baltimore and kicked BB to the curb..

 

[crawhammer]

I've seen bad QB's. Drew was not anywhere near the "bad" category.

In Bledsoe's last 26 starts with the Patriots he was 7-19 with 32 INTs. What would you call that?

Regarding Bill in Cleveland... IMO he wasn't ready back then for prime time as a head coach in this league.

That's a better excuse than it was the owner's fault Belichick had a losing record for 4 of 5 seasons. And one playoff win (over Bledsoe with a 38.3 passer rating).

 

[crawhammer]

Are you saying a great coach needs a great QB to win, wow, ground breaking stuff.

Ever heard of Joe Gibbs?

 

[archstanton543]

Inside the most dysfunctional PatsFans Thread​

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ever heard of Joe Gibbs?

That was once accurate. Not anymore.

 

[crawhammer]

Bill was 16-15 each with Vinny Testaverde and Mac Jones. Are they better or worse than Drew?

None of them are impressive. But what's the point?

Belichick won 16 division titles in a row with Brady. As the HC of the same team, before (2000), during (2008) and after (2020-2022), he's 0-5. That doesn't tell you anything about the value of Brady?

How do you see that as a criticism? It's a fact. He was a FA. He went to a talented team with cap space which needed a QB. He could have gone to a worse team and gone 8-8. If he did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Aside from the Schilling reference, you make it sound like Tampa Bay was ready to win a Super Bowl with any top 15 quarterback in the league. Which is the same ******** argument were heard from Belichick's inner circle about Brady in New England. When will common sense kick in so some people can just acknowledge the obvious. Brady is what made of all the championships possible. Not just any very good quarterback. Brady, the best quarterback of all time. There's only one of those. So certainly there aren't 15 for any given season.

 

[RobertWeathers]

None of them are impressive. But what's the point?

BB did better with two middling QBs than Drew. You are on record as saying Drew sucks. You use his time with Drew as marginalizing Bill. He went 11-5 with Cassell. Your point is ********.

Brady went 9-7 as a starter in 2002 and 8-8 in 2022. So in those 2 years TB went 17-16. Big f-ing deal. Continue to pick random years as long as it buttresses your point.

Belichick won 16 division titles in a row with Brady. As the HC of the same team, before (2000), during (2008) and after (2020-2022), he's 0-5. That doesn't tell you anything about the value of Brady?

Your error is you think I am devaluing Brady by highlighting Belichick's importance the last 20 years.

Who was more important during the Steelers dynasty? Noll or Bradshaw?

Aside from the Schilling reference, you make it sound like Tampa Bay was ready to win a Super Bowl with any top 15 quarterback in the league.

Do you disagree Tampa had SB talent before Tom arrived? Do you not acknowledge they had over $50m in cap space to use?

Do you think the NEP & Brady could go to 9 SBs in 20 years with a mid-tier coach and mid-tier GM?

Which is the same ******** argument were heard from Belichick's inner circle about Brady in New England. When will common sense kick in so some people can just acknowledge the obvious. Brady is what made of all the championships possible. Not just any very good quarterback. Brady, the best quarterback of all time. There's only one of those. So certainly there aren't 15 for any given season.

I see. It's ******** to give Bill credit for coaching a team, managing a salary cap, drafting players, signing free agents, developing and keeping talent, managing a coaching staff and developing game plans for 20 years for an organization which was a loser before he got there.

I believe you are on record as saying, "BB did some good things".

What a joke.

 

[captain stone]

Don't care for this Drew slander.

In his last game as the QB of the NEP, Drew played tough, was emotionally committed, and played the best he could under the circumstances... But man he threw some baaad passes... Reminded me again of why Brady was such a breath of fresh air...

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Ever heard of Joe Gibbs?

So was Bill Walsh a great coach or was it all Joe Montana? You need both to win multiple super bowls.

 

[crawhammer]

BB did better with two middling QBs than Drew. You are on record as saying Drew sucks. You use his time with Drew as marginalizing Bill. He went 11-5 with Cassell. Your point is ********.

Brady went 9-7 as a starter in 2002 and 8-8 in 2022. So in those 2 years TB went 17-16. Big f-ing deal. Continue to pick random years as long as it buttresses your point.

Random? This particular exchange started with me pointing out Bill's initial record as the Patriots head coach with Drew (5-13) and how it dramatically changed with Brady (14-3).

You randomly replied Bill had the same mediocre record with mediocre Vinny and mediocre Mac. Ok, so Bill gets mediocre results with mediocre quarterbacks. Sounds about right.

16-0 in 2007.
11-5 in 2008.

Brady's a +5. Sounds about right too.

And compiling 2002 and 2022 is as random as it gets.

Do you disagree Tampa had SB talent before Tom arrived? Do you not acknowledge they had over $50m in cap space to use?

Yes, I disagree. Unless you think Winston is SB talent? Or 7-9 is on the brink of a SB championship?

I don't recall the exact cap space situation but I'll take your word for it. Brady still brought them to the promise land.

I see. It's ******** to give Bill credit for coaching a team, managing a salary cap, drafting players, signing free agents, developing and keeping talent, managing a coaching staff and developing game plans for 20 years for an organization which was a loser before he got there.

That's the job description of a HC/GM. Bill gets full credit for not slacking on his responsibilities to his employer.

What does this have to do with Bill's inner circle thinking the Patriots could have replicated their success with any top 15 quarterback?

Do you think the NEP & Brady could go to 9 SBs in 20 years with a mid-tier coach and mid-tier GM?

You won't appreciate this question but... How do we know that's not what happened?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Random? This particular exchange started with me pointing out Bill's initial record as the Patriots head coach with Drew (5-13) and how it dramatically changed with Brady (14-3).

It is random. Drew was not a fit for the offense and had become entitled. You continue to unincorporate context in your analysis.

You randomly replied Bill had the same mediocre record with mediocre Vinny and mediocre Mac. Ok, so Bill gets mediocre results with mediocre quarterbacks. Sounds about right.

16-0 in 2007.
11-5 in 2008.

Brady's a +5. Sounds about right too.

And compiling 2002 and 2022 is as random as it gets.

The point is Cassell went 11-5 with basically the 07 roster minus a shutdown CB. That doesn't disparage Tom. What is does to is prove BB can win a lot of games with a great roster an an average QB who knows the system.

Yes, I disagree. Unless you think Winston is SB talent? Or 7-9 is on the brink of a SB championship?

Please. Look at the rest of the roster minus Winston. Don't be coy.

I don't recall the exact cap space situation but I'll take your word for it. Brady still brought them to the promise land.


That's the job description of a HC/GM. Bill gets full credit for not slacking on his responsibilities to his employer.

What does this have to do with Bill's inner circle thinking the Patriots could have replicated their success with any top 15 quarterback?

I don't know what inner circle you are referring to.

You won't appreciate this question but... How do we know that's not what happened?

If that's what you think then every SB winning coach/GM which had a HoF QB which includes Lombardi, Landry, Noll and Walsh, Brown and Shula are mid tier coaches.

What it also tells me if you don't know the difference between Bill Belichick and Rich Kotite.

 

[IcyPatriot]

This thread is an embarrassment ... something more akin to a Jete forum ....

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

Random? This particular exchange started with me pointing out Bill's initial record as the Patriots head coach with Drew (5-13) and how it dramatically changed with Brady (14-3).

You randomly replied Bill had the same mediocre record with mediocre Vinny and mediocre Mac. Ok, so Bill gets mediocre results with mediocre quarterbacks. Sounds about right.

16-0 in 2007.
11-5 in 2008.

Brady's a +5. Sounds about right too.

And compiling 2002 and 2022 is as random as it gets.


Yes, I disagree. Unless you think Winston is SB talent? Or 7-9 is on the brink of a SB championship?

I don't recall the exact cap space situation but I'll take your word for it. Brady still brought them to the promise land.


That's the job description of a HC/GM. Bill gets full credit for not slacking on his responsibilities to his employer.

What does this have to do with Bill's inner circle thinking the Patriots could have replicated their success with any top 15 quarterback?


You won't appreciate this question but... How do we know that's not what happened?

Drew was a leftover from previous years, had a new contract, and was by then so established in his ways that trying to fit into a new coache's philosophy was not easy for him compared to a fresh out of the gate sponge like Brady. Drew did two great things for the Pats, establish the franchise and provide leadership for Tom when it was needed.

Do you acknowledge that in BB,'s last year in Cleveland the team was on the up swing before the rug was pulled out from the entire fanbase?

It's funny how you claim how BB took a -5 dip for 2008 because Brady wasn't there. With an almost identical team, correct? Can you tell me the results for the 2009 team then? I' pretty sure it's close to a 10-6 record, maybe 9-7? And that was with Brady back. I guess Brady isn't the crutch he thought he could lean on back then after all. So your -5 should have the context of a 3 year window for an honest example. Overall BB only lost how many games without TB in that window?
(PS:. Every Pats fan is still irate that 08 team didn't make the playoffs. Nice to see it being used as a sticking point for you though.)

Regarding the Bucs in 2019, honestly, where would you put them if Winston had the same interception ratio that TB has experienced? Could they have gotten a few more wins? I feel like they could have. What transpired after his signing was proof of his influence (with assistance from Licht) and immediate understanding of the direction of the team and the required pieces to get it done (Gronk and AB). That comes from experience in the Patriot system. Do you hold Ariens in the same realm of contempt that you do BB?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Bill the GM needs to do better for Bill the Coach or they eventually will both meet their demise.

The December slide, loses to teams above .500 since 2020 (about 10-20) and their defenses getting shredded by competent QB/offenses will end when the GM picks better players, has a better coaching staff and ends the dysfunction.

He needs a talented QB that can regularly march down field and score TD's, not be satisfied to trot off the field for Folk to kick a field goal.

 

[Tunescribe]

It's not about black or white. 100% Brady vs 100% Belichick. That's not the argument. The Patriots Dynasty exists. Who's most responsible for it? That's where the shades of gray come into it because it's a franchise, a team, a coaching staff, a rosters full of players. Everyone made contributions and had an impact, but how much and to what degree? That's the discussion. If you're interested? Those that lean Brady are interested more than those that lean Belichick, which is not incidental. But some are just content with 50/50 regarding the black and white part of it. That's fine.

I'm not giving Brady "all" of the credit. I'm giving him the largest majority of the credit. You mention the defenses. There were 37 points scored in the 4th quarter of SB 38. There were 1151 yards of offense in SB 52. Brady produced a game-winning drive in every single Patriots Super Bowl victory. 6 for 6.

Brady was 14-16 for 130 yards and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter of SB 49 against the Legion of Boom. Brady was 16-21 for 196 yards and 1 TD in the 4th quarter of SB 51. He added 5-6 for 50 yards on the game-winning TD drive in overtime wiping out a 25-point deficit.

Brady's 4th quarter/OT stats from Super Bowl's 49 and 51 (just over half a game):
35-43 (81.4%) for 376 yards and 3 TDs (0 INTs)

Brady is the only player to be on the roster for all 6 SB championships and no other quarterback has risen to the occasion as much or as dramatically as Brady. Credit lies elsewhere for the team's success too but the biggest chunk of the pie goes to Brady. That's it, in a nutshell.

Based on what? The last 3 seasons with a combined sub .500 record and 1 thrashing in the playoffs.

The Bucs won a Super Bowl with 3 road wins and followed that up with the first 2 consecutive division titles in franchise history. The Patriots were basically the Cleveland Browns for the last 3 seasons.

So now Brady himself has killed the discussion entirely? Firstly, it's important to him whether he acknowledges it or not. We're talking about part of his legacy here. Secondly, Brady can't "call off" anything discussion wise. According to you I guess, just let the dummies have at it.

toilet bowles flushed week 18 so had the starters remained in the game they would have won it. The Patriots didn't beat anyone with more than 9 wins this season. The Bears finished the season 0-10, their last win came in week 7 @NE. Look at the starting quarterbacks the Patriots beat over the last two seasons. Their schedule wasn't tough this season or last. There's no assuming any team wins any game when they're a .500 team for 3 seasons without a playoff win.

 

[RodThePat]

Drew was a leftover from previous years, had a new contract, and was by then so established in his ways that trying to fit into a new coache's philosophy was not easy for him compared to a fresh out of the gate sponge like Brady. Drew did two great things for the Pats, establish the franchise and provide leadership for Tom when it was needed.

Do you acknowledge that in BB,'s last year in Cleveland the team was on the up swing before the rug was pulled out from the entire fanbase?

It's funny how you claim how BB took a -5 dip for 2008 because Brady wasn't there. With an almost identical team, correct? Can you tell me the results for the 2009 team then? I' pretty sure it's close to a 10-6 record, maybe 9-7? And that was with Brady back. I guess Brady isn't the crutch he thought he could lean on back then after all. So your -5 should have the context of a 3 year window for an honest example. Overall BB only lost how many games without TB in that window?
(PS:. Every Pats fan is still irate that 08 team didn't make the playoffs. Nice to see it being used as a sticking point for you though.)

Regarding the Bucs in 2019, honestly, where would you put them if Winston had the same interception ratio that TB has experienced? Could they have gotten a few more wins? I feel like they could have. What transpired after his signing was proof of his influence (with assistance from Licht) and immediate understanding of the direction of the team and the required pieces to get it done (Gronk and AB). That comes from experience in the Patriot system. Do you hold Ariens in the same realm of contempt that you do BB?

This is so dumb. The '08 team was basically the same as the '07 squad that was one dropped INT away from going undefeated, they had not only the best roster in football but also one of the easier schedules (facing the awful NFC West and AFC West, the two worst divisions in the sport at the time). The 2009 team was COMPLETELY different. Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, Seymour, Seau all went away in the same off-season. Think that mattered a bit? Even then they had the best offense in the league by DVOA against the third hardest schedule of pass defenses.

 

[TommyD4207]

Ever heard of Joe Gibbs?

Joe Theismann was an MVP and Doug Williams was a first round draft pick. Let's not pretend his QBs sucked, k?

 

[RobertWeathers]

This is so dumb. The '08 team was basically the same as the '07 squad that was one dropped INT away from going undefeated, they had not only the best roster in football but also one of the easier schedules (facing the awful NFC West and AFC West, the two worst divisions in the sport at the time). The 2009 team was COMPLETELY different. Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, Seymour, Seau all went away in the same off-season. Think that mattered a bit? Even then they had the best offense in the league by DVOA against the third hardest schedule of pass defenses.

I wouldn't say the same. Maybe on offense but the 08 defense had some key losses and some regression in performance by some key players. For example Asante and Randall Gay left. That's 9 INTs and 25 PDs right there. Vrabel, Bru, Green, Rodney, Ty, etc all saw their play decline from 07.

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

This is so dumb. The '08 team was basically the same as the '07 squad that was one dropped INT away from going undefeated, they had not only the best roster in football but also one of the easier schedules (facing the awful NFC West and AFC West, the two worst divisions in the sport at the time). The 2009 team was COMPLETELY different. Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, Seymour, Seau all went away in the same off-season. Think that mattered a bit? Even then they had the best offense in the league by DVOA against the third hardest schedule of pass defenses.

All on the defensive side. Was the offense still the same? Why couldn't Brady regain that -5 the year he came back? Scheduling is irrelevant. Are you still crying about how easy the Colts schedules were when Manning played?

 

[State]

Are you saying a great coach needs a great QB to win, wow, ground breaking stuff.

I guess you’re not old enough to remember Joe Gibbs of the team that can no longer be named. He won I think three SBs with Williams and Rypien. Not close to being great.

Doug Williams had a career passing rate of 69.4%. And in Mark Rypien’s long career, 1986-2002, he was an all pro only twice. He was good for a few years, but I am sad to learn of his mental health struggles post his career.

These brain injuries really add up.