Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[RobertWeathers]

What thread does it actually belong on?

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion about the podcast, given that there are so many on this board who make everything about Brady vs Belichick.

...because BB and TB12 agreeing their time together was a true collaboration and neither would achieve their respective level of personal success without the other.

God forbid their actual words to each other doesn't fit the BB v TB12 crowd's narrative

 

[crawhammer]

...because BB and TB12 agreeing their time together was a true collaboration and neither would achieve their respective level of personal success without the other.

Just for the record (one without the other):

Brady: 3 seasons, 3 playoff appearances, 2 division titles, 5 playoff wins, 1 Super Bowl championship

Belichick: 10 seasons, 2 playoff appearances, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win

 

[PowerRunRevival]

...because BB and TB12 agreeing their time together was a true collaboration and neither would achieve their respective level of personal success without the other.

God forbid their actual words to each other doesn't fit the BB v TB12 crowd's narrative

After reading through the other thread, the podcast didn't seem to have any effect on opinions of the Brady vs Belichick people. Which is disappointing but not unexpected.

I don't think there is anything that could happen that would get those fans off of the Bill vs Tom narrative.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Eagles cornerback Darius Slay respects Matt Patricia as a coach, but not as a man

Darius Slay with no love for Patricia.

Matt Patricia is the greatest....according to him. What a fuking turd he is.

 

[Steve102]

...because BB and TB12 agreeing their time together was a true collaboration and neither would achieve their respective level of personal success without the other.

God forbid their actual words to each other doesn't fit the BB v TB12 crowd's narrative

It's hysterical. Tom Brady's own words won't stop them.

..."I think it's always a stupid conversation to say, 'Brady vs. Belichick' because, in my mind, that's not what a partnership is about."

 

[PowerRunRevival]

Just for the record (one without the other):

Brady: 3 seasons, 3 playoff appearances, 2 division titles, 5 playoff wins, 1 Super Bowl championship

Belichick: 10 seasons, 2 playoff appearances, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win

Yes, because good coaches don't win without good players. Brady left for a better roster and then won with that stacked roster. Of the non Brady Belichick seasons, the majority of them had the Patriots outplaying their talent (this past season was the exception). Coaches should get credit for how their team performs relative to the talent on the team, not in a vacuum.

The problem with that narrative is that football is a team sport with three phases and Brady only plays in one phase. That Bucs superbowl defense was dominant but Brady isn't responsible for that at all, but the defense did contribute to the success you listed.

A lot of the Patriots superbowl wins were lead by the defense, but the way you breaks things down gives all the credit to Brady for those defenses and none to Bill. Does that make sense to you? because it shouldn't.

Viewing things as just Brady or Belichick over simplifies a game that is dictated by 50-70. You miss so much if you focus on only black and white, completely ignoring any shades of gray.

 

[Rob0729]

Just for the record (one without the other):

Brady: 3 seasons, 3 playoff appearances, 2 division titles, 5 playoff wins, 1 Super Bowl championship

Belichick: 10 seasons, 2 playoff appearances, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win

In fairness, if the Patriots were in the NFC South this season instead of the Bucs, they would have won the NFC South too. And if they were in the NFC last year, they might have won a playoff game or two.

 

[Calhoun44]

I think a new rule on this forum should be that whenever a thread devolves into a BB vs. Brady debate, the thread gets closed. It is getting ridiculous. Actually, it has been ridiculous for quite a while now, but now that it has been three full seasons without Brady in NE it just seems even more tiring and pathetic.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Just for the record (one without the other):

Brady: 3 seasons, 3 playoff appearances, 2 division titles, 5 playoff wins, 1 Super Bowl championship

Belichick: 10 seasons, 2 playoff appearances, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win

Your "Record" needs a lot of footnotes and context.

 

[Steve102]

I think a new rule on this forum should be that whenever a thread devolves into a BB vs. Brady debate, the thread gets closed. It is getting ridiculous. Actually, it has been ridiculous for quite a while now, but now that it has been three full seasons without Brady in NE it just seems even more tiring and pathetic.

Not to mention Tom Brady himself called off the code red.

I suggested to @Ian, jokingly, that they need a tom v bill thread all to their own, so they can talk in circles to their hearts content. But after Tom's (and Bill's) comments on the podcast, I think we should have that. Banish all stupid Tom v Bill content to that thread and let them have at it.

 

[crawhammer]

Yes, because good coaches don't win without good players. Brady left for a better roster and then won with that stacked roster. Of the non Brady Belichick seasons, the majority of them had the Patriots outplaying their talent (this past season was the exception). Coaches should get credit for how their team performs relative to the talent on the team, not in a vacuum.

The problem with that narrative is that football is a team sport with three phases and Brady only plays in one phase. That Bucs superbowl defense was dominant but Brady isn't responsible for that at all, but the defense did contribute to the success you listed.

A lot of the Patriots superbowl wins were lead by the defense, but the way you breaks things down gives all the credit to Brady for those defenses and none to Bill. Does that make sense to you? because it shouldn't.

Viewing things as just Brady or Belichick over simplifies a game that is dictated by 50-70. You miss so much if you focus on only black and white, completely ignoring any shades of gray.

It's not about black or white. 100% Brady vs 100% Belichick. That's not the argument. The Patriots Dynasty exists. Who's most responsible for it? That's where the shades of gray come into it because it's a franchise, a team, a coaching staff, a rosters full of players. Everyone made contributions and had an impact, but how much and to what degree? That's the discussion. If you're interested? Those that lean Brady are interested more than those that lean Belichick, which is not incidental. But some are just content with 50/50 regarding the black and white part of it. That's fine.

I'm not giving Brady "all" of the credit. I'm giving him the largest majority of the credit. You mention the defenses. There were 37 points scored in the 4th quarter of SB 38. There were 1151 yards of offense in SB 52. Brady produced a game-winning drive in every single Patriots Super Bowl victory. 6 for 6.

Brady was 14-16 for 130 yards and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter of SB 49 against the Legion of Boom. Brady was 16-21 for 196 yards and 1 TD in the 4th quarter of SB 51. He added 5-6 for 50 yards on the game-winning TD drive in overtime wiping out a 25-point deficit.

Brady's 4th quarter/OT stats from Super Bowl's 49 and 51 (just over half a game):
35-43 (81.4%) for 376 yards and 3 TDs (0 INTs)

Brady is the only player to be on the roster for all 6 SB championships and no other quarterback has risen to the occasion as much or as dramatically as Brady. Credit lies elsewhere for the team's success too but the biggest chunk of the pie goes to Brady. That's it, in a nutshell.

 

[crawhammer]

In fairness, if the Patriots were in the NFC South this season instead of the Bucs, they would have won the NFC South too. And if they were in the NFC last year, they might have won a playoff game or two.

Based on what? The last 3 seasons with a combined sub .500 record and 1 thrashing in the playoffs.

The Bucs won a Super Bowl with 3 road wins and followed that up with the first 2 consecutive division titles in franchise history. The Patriots were basically the Cleveland Browns for the last 3 seasons.

 

[crawhammer]

Your "Record" needs a lot of footnotes and context.

You're welcome to it.

 

[Rob0729]

Based on what? The last 3 seasons with a combined sub .500 record and 1 thrashing in the playoffs.

The Bucs won a Super Bowl with 3 road wins and followed that up with the first 2 consecutive division titles in franchise history. The Patriots were basically the Cleveland Browns for the last 3 seasons.

The Pats finished the season with the same record as the Bucs this season with a tougher schedule and an exponentially tougher division. Of course they would have won the NFC South this year if they were there instead of the Bucs.

And the Pats would have had a far easier playoff opponent last year if they were in the NFC. They could have beaten the Cowboys who always choke in the playoffs. Or the Eagles who really weren't that good last year.

And did I mention anything about the Bucs? But will say they sucked this year and benefitted from a cake schedule and the worst division in football by far.

 

[crawhammer]

Not to mention Tom Brady himself called off the code red.

I suggested to @Ian, jokingly, that they need a tom v bill thread all to their own, so they can talk in circles to their hearts content. But after Tom's (and Bill's) comments on the podcast, I think we should have that. Banish all stupid Tom v Bill content to that thread and let them have at it.

So now Brady himself has killed the discussion entirely? Firstly, it's important to him whether he acknowledges it or not. We're talking about part of his legacy here. Secondly, Brady can't "call off" anything discussion wise. According to you I guess, just let the dummies have at it.

 

[PowerRunRevival]

It's not about black or white. 100% Brady vs 100% Belichick. That's not the argument. The Patriots Dynasty exists. Who's most responsible for it? That's where the shades of gray come into it because it's a franchise, a team, a coaching staff, a rosters full of players. Everyone made contributions and had an impact, but how much and to what degree? That's the discussion. If you're interested? Those that lean Brady are interested more than those that lean Belichick, which is not incidental. But some are just content with 50/50 regarding the black and white part of it. That's fine.

I'm not giving Brady "all" of the credit. I'm giving him the largest majority of the credit. You mention the defenses. There were 37 points scored in the 4th quarter of SB 38. There were 1151 yards of offense in SB 52. Brady produced a game-winning drive in every single Patriots Super Bowl victory. 6 for 6.

Brady was 14-16 for 130 yards and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter of SB 49 against the Legion of Boom. Brady was 16-21 for 196 yards and 1 TD in the 4th quarter of SB 51. He added 5-6 for 50 yards on the game-winning TD drive in overtime wiping out a 25-point deficit.

Brady's 4th quarter/OT stats from Super Bowl's 49 and 51 (just over half a game):
35-43 (81.4%) for 376 yards and 3 TDs (0 INTs)

Brady is the only player to be on the roster for all 6 SB championships and no other quarterback has risen to the occasion as much or as dramatically as Brady. Credit lies elsewhere for the team's success too but the biggest chunk of the pie goes to Brady. That's it, in a nutshell.

I'm completely fine with giving Brady more credit than Belichick for the dynasty as long as both get credit. Brady deserves more of the credit, imo.

What annoys me is how often the Brady people use this Brady vs Bill argument to denigrate Belichick. The people who post that Bill is a mediocre coach who should be fired usually cite the same stats you stated in your original post. I've seen a number of posts saying Bill is a mediocre coach without Brady, or that the methods/tactics the Patriots used during the dynasty to be successful no longer work without Tom. I think there are a lot of Pats fans that were hurt by Brady leaving, blame Belichick and never will forgive Bill for that.

I completely agree that Brady deserves the biggest chunk of the credit. However, Brady is retired, and hasn't played for the Patriots for four years. The way Brady verses Belichick is brought up in posts is 95% when people are talking negatively about Belichick. I understand your point that Tom deserves more of the credit but that's not the argument I see when people bring up Belichick vs Brady in terms of the current roster and coaching staff. Since Brady is no longer part of the team the majority of the time the topic is discussed now people are using it as an instrument to lower Bill not raise up Tom.

For example, this thread is essentially about the causes of the Patriots (mainly Bill) failing this year. When Bill vs Tom is brought up related to the failure of this year Tom doesn't have any relevance in the conversation unless people are using the BIll vs Tom debate to say that Bill was never good. How much credit Tom deserves vs Bill isn't really relevant to the failures of this past season unless it is brought up in a way to **** on Belichick which is more often not the way it is brought up on this board.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Not sure how this can be true, because according to Felger the cap is crap.

Yes, because good coaches don't win without good players. Brady left for a better roster and then won with that stacked roster. Of the non Brady Belichick seasons, the majority of them had the Patriots outplaying their talent (this past season was the exception). Coaches should get credit for how their team performs relative to the talent on the team, not in a vacuum.

The problem with that narrative is that football is a team sport with three phases and Brady only plays in one phase. That Bucs superbowl defense was dominant but Brady isn't responsible for that at all, but the defense did contribute to the success you listed.

A lot of the Patriots superbowl wins were lead by the defense, but the way you breaks things down gives all the credit to Brady for those defenses and none to Bill. Does that make sense to you? because it shouldn't.

Viewing things as just Brady or Belichick over simplifies a game that is dictated by 50-70. You miss so much if you focus on only black and white, completely ignoring any shades of gray.

After all the BS about the Rams and their ability to circumvent the cap and the Bucs being a great team that only won because of Brady, both teams are poised to become the 2019 Patriots. While it is true that the Boom and Bust model can win a championship, it is destined to fail long term when the cap catches up and the roster gets stale. The BB/TB12 partnership was unprecedented because of the year over year consistent excellence.

 

[Steve102]

So now Brady himself has killed the discussion entirely? Firstly, it's important to him whether he acknowledges it or not. We're talking about part of his legacy here. Secondly, Brady can't "call off" anything discussion wise. According to you I guess, just let the dummies have at it.

Not according to me, Felger, according to Tom.

I think it's always a stupid conversation to say, 'Brady vs. Belichick' because, in my mind, that's not what a partnership is about.

You're like some long lost Japanese soldier from WWII. Years in the jungle, can't fathom the war is over. Tom said it's a partnership. Bill says players win games. Anything else is just you continuing your diatribe. The two parties involved in the greatest dynasty the NFL has seen have settled it. There's no conflict.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You're welcome to it.

Done.

Footnotes and context.

Bill took over 3-13 and 5-11 teams with financial problems and made them playoff and SB contenders.

Bill drafted, developed and played Tom and surrounded him with HoF, ProBowl and pro-caliber talent on both sides of the ball and great coaching staffs.

Tom jumped to a team with talent, cap space and won a Super Bowl. Kudos to him for being 2021 version of 04 Curt Schilling.

Bill stayed and started a rebuilding process and was back in the playoffs 2 years later. He didn't jump to the 2021 Rams ala 2002 Jon Gruden to TB.

 

[crawhammer]

The Pats finished the season with the same record as the Bucs this season with a tougher schedule and an exponentially tougher division. Of course they would have won the NFC South this year if they were there instead of the Bucs.

toilet bowles flushed week 18 so had the starters remained in the game they would have won it. The Patriots didn't beat anyone with more than 9 wins this season. The Bears finished the season 0-10, their last win came in week 7 @NE. Look at the starting quarterbacks the Patriots beat over the last two seasons. Their schedule wasn't tough this season or last. There's no assuming any team wins any game when they're a .500 team for 3 seasons without a playoff win.