Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[patfanken]

This thread is an embarrassment ... something more akin to a Jete forum ....

Back around 2010 in the Rex Ryan days when the Jets were relevant, I was a visiter at what was then the most popular Jet fan site. (which I don't think even exists any more. Anyway I had some spirited FOOTBALL discussion over there. Some were good solid back and forth about the game and our teams. Sometimes I was treated like we often treat visitors from other teams who aren't trolls.

Anyway, as I was reading the last 2 pages of this thread, my first thought was, "this sounds like the Jet board", where often NOTHING productive was said, just whining, moaning and LOTS and LOTS of blaming,

 

[State]

Remember the cheering when we finally had a game against the Bills where they had to punt? And it’s been too long since we made the playoffs. And we’re being bumped out of prime time tv spots.

Give the Jets a good QB, and then they’ll have a real chance at a better record than we will.

 

[Ollie]

I don't get the obsession with the Tom Vs Brady thing.. Remove a hall of fame QB from any great coaches record and i'm pretty sure the record looks worse. That is just common sense. If you lose a great player the team will be effected negatively. HOF QBs aren't easy to find

 

[crawhammer]

It is random. Drew was not a fit for the offense and had become entitled. You continue to unincorporate context in your analysis.

Drew was not a fit for the offense?? Well then explain why Belichick signed him to a 10-year contract prior to the 2001 season. Explain why Belichick had Bledsoe on the field for weeks 1 & 2 of the 2001 season. Explain why it took Mo Lewis for Brady to get an opportunity.

Whoever you want to blame or credit, this is a fact, the team stunk with Belichick and Bledsoe, but the same exact team otherwise with Belichick and Brady was a Super Bowl champion. One thing changed for the team to go from awful to great: Brady.

The point is Cassell went 11-5 with basically the 07 roster minus a shutdown CB. That doesn't disparage Tom. What is does to is prove BB can win a lot of games with a great roster an an average QB who knows the system.

The end result was just another season, Belichick without Brady, with no division title, no playoffs, and no postseason success.

Please. Look at the rest of the roster minus Winston. Don't be coy.

Please look at the 2022 rosters of the Bills, Bengals, Chargers, Cowboys, and 49ers. Reaching the ultimate goal of competing in the Super Bowl isn't easy. Good rosters fall short all the time and do so way more often than not. It's just Brady who reaches the Super Bowl 48% of the time.

I don't know what inner circle you are referring to.

You're not familiar with the comments about the Patriots being able to have achieved as much success with any top 15 quarterback? Don't be coy.

If that's what you think then every SB winning coach/GM which had a HoF QB which includes Lombardi, Landry, Noll and Walsh, Brown and Shula are mid tier coaches.

What it also tells me if you don't know the difference between Bill Belichick and Rich Kotite.

You didn't answer the question. The question is fair given the circumstances. However, I've said Belichick is one of the greatest head coaches of the Super Bowl era (#1 on the list is fair). He's got some obvious blemishes but in the overall he's a great head coach. I can poke a million holes in his GM résumé. Looking at that just that aspect of his career, I don't think it's a given that he's exceptional.

 

[crawhammer]

Do you acknowledge that in BB,'s last year in Cleveland the team was on the up swing before the rug was pulled out from the entire fanbase?

I acknowledge Modell announced in November of 1995 that he was moving the team to Baltimore. The team wasn't on the upswing with a 4-5 record to that point, rather they were on pace for results in line with Belichick's first three uninspiring seasons as the head coach. The 1995 team wasn't good, they finished the season on a 2-10 slide which started before Modell's announcement. They were also bad their first four seasons in Baltimore, including 4-12 in 1996, one year after Belichick's departure.

It's funny how you claim how BB took a -5 dip for 2008 because Brady wasn't there. With an almost identical team, correct? Can you tell me the results for the 2009 team then? I' pretty sure it's close to a 10-6 record, maybe 9-7? And that was with Brady back. I guess Brady isn't the crutch he thought he could lean on back then after all. So your -5 should have the context of a 3 year window for an honest example. Overall BB only lost how many games without TB in that window?
(PS:. Every Pats fan is still irate that 08 team didn't make the playoffs. Nice to see it being used as a sticking point for you though.)

This is a little convoluted but I'll reply anyway. The 2009 season tells us what? For starters, Brady's coming back from an ACL. They had a similar record to the season prior but the schedule was much softer in 2008. In 2009 they had road losses to the Colts and Saints who would eventually meet in the SB. The defense got lit up in week 17 @HOU which was also the game when Welker blew out his ACL. This was the season Belichick suggested he couldn't reach the team and he comically ignored Kraft in a meeting. Have I made enough excuses yet? Let me know.

They did win the division in 2009 so that's a plus.

Regarding the Bucs in 2019, honestly, where would you put them if Winston had the same interception ratio that TB has experienced? Could they have gotten a few more wins? I feel like they could have. What transpired after his signing was proof of his influence (with assistance from Licht) and immediate understanding of the direction of the team and the required pieces to get it done (Gronk and AB). That comes from experience in the Patriot system. Do you hold Ariens in the same realm of contempt that you do BB?

As far as I know Arians isn't responsible for taking a Super Bowl ring away from Brady.

As for the Winston part, he was a disaster, obviously, with all of those turnovers. The 2019 Bucs are a good example of a QB ruining a season for a team. The 2020 Bucs are a good example of how Brady can influence a team (both on and off the field) and turn them into a Super Bowl champion.

 

[crawhammer]

Bill the GM needs to do better for Bill the Coach or they eventually will both meet their demise.

The December slide, loses to teams above .500 since 2020 (about 10-20) and their defenses getting shredded by competent QB/offenses will end when the GM picks better players, has a better coaching staff and ends the dysfunction.

He needs a talented QB that can regularly march down field and score TD's, not be satisfied to trot off the field for Folk to kick a field goal.

Good post but Bill's 70 and he doesn't have enough time to rebuild with another quarterback. He either has to try to make it work with Mac or trade for Rodgers or Jackson. Trading for a 'plug and contend' quarterback is Bill's best bet. Mac isn't going to be good enough to make it through the AFC gauntlet of Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, and Herbert.

 

[archstanton543]

I would, once again, like to thank Ian for the Mute function.

 

[crawhammer]

Joe Theismann was an MVP and Doug Williams was a first round draft pick. Let's not pretend his QBs sucked, k?

I'm not pretending. They collectively sucked.

Theismann never led the NFL in a passing category. Not once. 2x pro bowler. Undeservingly beat out ****erson for league MVP in 1983. Theismann was mediocre at best.

Doug Williams hadn't won an NFL game in 5 years before Gibbs went 3-0 with him in the 1987 postseason. It's an absolute miracle what Gibbs got out of Williams in that postseason. For the balance of his NFL career, Williams was an awful quarterback. He was a major 1st round bust with a career completion percentage of 47.4 when he showed up in Washington. Possibly the worst quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl.

Rypien again is classic Gibbs making chicken salad out of chicken ****. A barely serviceable quarterback winning another Super Bowl under Gibbs. Rypien was manageable until the wheels fell off. Rypien immediately bottomed out after Gibbs left and soon would become a forgotten backup.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Drew was not a fit for the offense?? Well then explain why Belichick signed him to a 10-year contract prior to the 2001 season.

He needed a QB and wasn't going to war with Kraft. Notice how it had an easy out after the 01 season?

Explain why Belichick had Bledsoe on the field for weeks 1 & 2 of the 2001 season. Explain why it took Mo Lewis for Brady to get an opportunity.

BB said Tom did not win the starting job because of his lack of experience as a starter. He outplayed Drew in camp.

Whoever you want to blame or credit, this is a fact, the team stunk with Belichick and Bledsoe, but the same exact team otherwise with Belichick and Brady was a Super Bowl champion. One thing changed for the team to go from awful to great: Brady.

Yes that is a fact.

The end result was just another season, Belichick without Brady, with no division title, no playoffs, and no postseason success.

OK. Tom went 8-8 this year. It takes a good team to win consistently.

Please look at the 2022 rosters of the Bills, Bengals, Chargers, Cowboys, and 49ers. Reaching the ultimate goal of competing in the Super Bowl isn't easy. Good rosters fall short all the time and do so way more often than not. It's just Brady who reaches the Super Bowl 48% of the time.

..because SB teams need good to great QB play.

You're not familiar with the comments about the Patriots being able to have achieved as much success with any top 15 quarterback? Don't be coy.

I don't care what other say. If you want to debate, debate what I say.

You didn't answer the question. The question is fair given the circumstances. However, I've said Belichick is one of the greatest head coaches of the Super Bowl era (#1 on the list is fair). He's got some obvious blemishes but in the overall he's a great head coach. I can poke a million holes in his GM résumé. Looking at that just that aspect of his career, I don't think it's a given that he's exceptional.

You can poke holes in every resume. What matters are the accomplishments.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I guess you’re not old enough to remember Joe Gibbs of the team that can no longer be named. He won I think three SBs with Williams and Rypien. Not close to being great.

Doug Williams had a career passing rate of 69.4%. And in Mark Rypien’s long career, 1986-2002, he was an all pro only twice. He was good for a few years, but I am sad to learn of his mental health struggles post his career.

These brain injuries really add up.

I would venture to guess I'm a little older than you and have been around since the 60's watching football. My question was about Bill Walsh, not Joe Gibbs. Joe Gibbs was a great coach, no argument from me. There are other coaches considered great that had one QB while they were on their run.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Random? This particular exchange started with me pointing out Bill's initial record as the Patriots head coach with Drew (5-13) and how it dramatically changed with Brady (14-3).

You randomly replied Bill had the same mediocre record with mediocre Vinny and mediocre Mac. Ok, so Bill gets mediocre results with mediocre quarterbacks. Sounds about right.

16-0 in 2007.
11-5 in 2008.

Brady's a +5. Sounds about right too.

And compiling 2002 and 2022 is as random as it gets.


Yes, I disagree. Unless you think Winston is SB talent? Or 7-9 is on the brink of a SB championship?

I don't recall the exact cap space situation but I'll take your word for it. Brady still brought them to the promise land.


That's the job description of a HC/GM. Bill gets full credit for not slacking on his responsibilities to his employer.

What does this have to do with Bill's inner circle thinking the Patriots could have replicated their success with any top 15 quarterback?


You won't appreciate this question but... How do we know that's not what happened?

But once TB was QB he had brough in a bunch of his own guys the second year. The first year was weeding out who he wanted to keep and who he needed to replace.

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

I acknowledge Modell announced in November of 1995 that he was moving the team to Baltimore. The team wasn't on the upswing with a 4-5 record to that point, rather they were on pace for results in line with Belichick's first three uninspiring seasons as the head coach. The 1995 team wasn't good, they finished the season on a 2-10 slide which started before Modell's announcement. They were also bad their first four seasons in Baltimore, including 4-12 in 1996, one year after Belichick's departure.


This is a little convoluted but I'll reply anyway. The 2009 season tells us what? For starters, Brady's coming back from an ACL. They had a similar record to the season prior but the schedule was much softer in 2008. In 2009 they had road losses to the Colts and Saints who would eventually meet in the SB. The defense got lit up in week 17 @HOU which was also the game when Welker blew out his ACL. This was the season Belichick suggested he couldn't reach the team and he comically ignored Kraft in a meeting. Have I made enough excuses yet? Let me know.

They did win the division in 2009 so that's a plus.


As far as I know Arians isn't responsible for taking a Super Bowl ring away from Brady.

As for the Winston part, he was a disaster, obviously, with all of those turnovers. The 2019 Bucs are a good example of a QB ruining a season for a team. The 2020 Bucs are a good example of how Brady can influence a team (both on and off the field) and turn them into a Super Bowl champion.

I acknowledge Modell announced in November of 1995 that he was moving the team to Baltimore. The team wasn't on the upswing with a 4-5 record to that point, rather they were on pace for results in line with Belichick's first three uninspiring seasons as the head coach. The 1995 team wasn't good, they finished the season on a 2-10 slide which started before Modell's announcement. They were also bad their first four seasons in Baltimore, including 4-12 in 1996, one year after Belichick's departure.


This is a little convoluted but I'll reply anyway. The 2009 season tells us what? For starters, Brady's coming back from an ACL. They had a similar record to the season prior but the schedule was much softer in 2008. In 2009 they had road losses to the Colts and Saints who would eventually meet in the SB. The defense got lit up in week 17 @HOU which was also the game when Welker blew out his ACL. This was the season Belichick suggested he couldn't reach the team and he comically ignored Kraft in a meeting. Have I made enough excuses yet? Let me know.

They did win the division in 2009 so that's a plus.


As far as I know Arians isn't responsible for taking a Super Bowl ring away from Brady.

As for the Winston part, he was a disaster, obviously, with all of those turnovers. The 2019 Bucs are a good example of a QB ruining a season for a team. The 2020 Bucs are a good example of how Brady can influence a team (both on and off the field) and turn them into a Super Bowl champion.

The announcement was Nov. 6th. They were 4-5. Still in the hunt. Are you holding BB accountable for everything after that?

Brady had a year to heal up and prepare for 2009. BB had two minutes to readjust in 2008. He excelled, then was let down by Bradys leader

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

The announcement was Nov. 6th. They were 4-5. Still in the hunt. Are you holding BB accountable for everything after that?

Brady had a year to heal up and prepare for 2009. BB had two minutes to readjust in 2008. He excelled, then was let down by Bradys leadership the following season. Weller's injury? We won't SBs without Gronk. That's a terrible excuse.

 

[crawhammer]

He needed a QB and wasn't going to war with Kraft. Notice how it had an easy out after the 01 season?

Bill seemed wedded to Bledsoe being his franchise quarterback. A 10-year contract is a pretty strong indication.

BB said Tom did not win the starting job because of his lack of experience as a starter. He outplayed Drew in camp.

He said that when? After Brady was wearing a SB ring. Let's assume Brady outplayed Drew in camp... was there even a known competition there? For all we know Drew coasted through camp because he had just signed a mega deal with the team and he naturally assumed his starting job was guaranteed.

OK. Tom went 8-8 this year. It takes a good team to win consistently.

If you want to debate then stick to the subject. And I wish you would stop bringing up this 8-8 record because it was really 8-9 and I don't want to correct you. Your version keeps Brady's .500 or above record intact for all 22 seasons. Which sounds better.

The Bucs won their division this season. They made the playoffs all three seasons with Brady and won their division back to back for the first time in franchise history. The Bucs were successful with Brady and had he got there sooner, perhaps prior to the 2017 season, then they probably would have won multiple Super Bowls.

..because SB teams need good to great QB play.

But only Brady reaches the Super Bowl 48% of the time. No other quarterback in the history of the NFL comes close to that percentage. Elway reached the Super Bowl 31% of the time. Montana was 30% of the time. Most all-time elite quarterbacks are much lower than those two.

I don't care what other say. If you want to debate, debate what I say.

I think it matters what Belichick thought of the team's success. It's flawed thinking to believe you can win with any top 15 quarterback. Mainly because you were winning with the top 1 quarterback and the rest of your career shows you haven't won with anything less than that.

 

[Rob0729]

Kurt Warner is on 98.5 and he is basically trashing Patricia. He is saying the concepts the Pats were trying to run are sound, but he doesn't believe Patricia understood the concepts and how to implement them. He said the receiver spacing was awful which made it impossible to know where to throw to. It is basically everything he said in the video later in the year, but a little more definitive towards blaming the coaching.

He did add that the only way to have a successful offense is to build the offense around the QB and his strengths and wants. He believes the Patriots built the offense around concepts they liked and didn't really take Mac Jones and his strengths into consideration.

 

[crawhammer]

The announcement was Nov. 6th. They were 4-5. Still in the hunt. Are you holding BB accountable for everything after that?

Can we wipe 2002 out of the record books? Because then I can say Brady made the playoffs every season of his career and pulled off a Super Bowl 3-peat right out of the gate.

Bill's record in 1995 for Cleveland says 5-11. He owes it.

 

[crawhammer]

Kurt Warner is on 98.5 and he is basically trashing Patricia. He is saying the concepts the Pats were trying to run are sound, but he doesn't believe Patricia understood the concepts and how to implement them. He said the receiver spacing was awful which made it impossible to know where to throw to. It is basically everything he said in the video later in the year, but a little more definitive towards blaming the coaching.

He did add that the only way to have a successful offense is to build the offense around the QB and his strengths and wants. He believes the Patriots built the offense around concepts they liked and didn't really take Mac Jones and his strengths into consideration.

Some quarterbacks, in fact many, aren't good enough to build a championship caliber offense. I would amend that first statement to:

the only way to have a successful offense is to build the offense around an elite QB and his strengths and wants.

 

[captain stone]

Joe Theismann was an MVP and Doug Williams was a first round draft pick. Let's not pretend his QBs sucked, k?

And Mark Rypien...?

 

[Rob0729]

Some quarterbacks, in fact many, aren't good enough to build a championship caliber offense. I would amend that first statement to:

Hope you live long enough for the Pats to have an elite QB again.

I mean the Pats should just trade away Mac Jones and get the next Mahomes, Allen, or Burrow. It is so simple, Belichick is a fool to not do that. The Pats first priority is to get an elite QB. Why aren't people seeing that? /sarcasm

No you devise an offense to maximize the strengths of the players you have whether you have Patrick Mahomes at QB or Sam Darnold at QB.

Based on your logic, the Pats should just tank every season until they can draft an elite QB. Are you ready for 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 years of being the worst or one of the worst teams in football until they do?

 

[crawhammer]

Hope you live long enough for the Pats to have an elite QB again.

I mean the Pats should just trade away Mac Jones and get the next Mahomes, Allen, or Burrow. It is so simple, Belichick is a fool to not do that. The Pats first priority is to get an elite QB. Why aren't people seeing that? /sarcasm

No you devise an offense to maximize the strengths of the players you have whether you have Patrick Mahomes at QB or Sam Darnold at QB.

Based on your logic, the Pats should just tank every season until they can draft an elite QB. Are you ready for 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 years of being the worst or one of the worst teams in football until they do?

It's not about me. It's about Belichick, who's 70 and nearing the end of his coaching career. How does he maximize the few seasons he has left? Try to (re)build (again) around a QB with a limited ceiling? You tell me, what kind of offense are the Patriots building around Mac to maximize his strengths? Or perhaps Bill can go after a known elite QB and swing for the fences for 2-3 seasons? This seems to be NYJ's plan so we may have an interesting comparison of approaches.

I don't have answers for how the team can get back to being consistent contenders again but I know they'll give themselves a needed advantage with an elite quarterback. The conference is full of them.