How much longer will you drink the BB kool-aid?

[Wozzy]

Tedy Bruschi rips Belichick's approach to free agency: 'Bill, go to work'

Tedy Bruschi isn’t pleased. On ESPN Wednesday, the New England Patriots Hall of Famer implored Bill Belichick to be more active in free agency even after they signed JuJu Smith-Schuster.

www.audacy.com

We know exactly what you are too.

I didn't read where Bruschi said all our players suck, BB sucks and the entire team was doomed... or did I miss something?

By my count the Pats have 69 players currently under contract, they have two long snappers and will cut Tucker Addington now that Cardona is back. They also have a lot of dead weight at the end of the depth chart if they want to add more players. But for the sake of argument, let's say Tucker is replaced by a punter.

They have 11 draft picks, so that means they can sign at minimum 10 more free agents or trade for some players.

They're going to add 21 more players from now to the start of camp to reach the 90 teams can invite, they have among the most cap space in the league, they have 11 draft picks. There are a lot of good to great free agents still out there and many players on the trading block.

I'm an objective rational fan who can state my position with nuance and without emotion.

You're a troll.

 

[State]

He's the best . Period.

The looming question that will become louder over the next few years is whether Don Shula’s record will be broken for all-time victories by Belichick.

This deserves its own thread.

 

[crawhammer]

I did... twice... back on page 11.

Proving you don't read responses. You just repeat your canned "BB sucks" and "Brady possessed magic powers" stock answers and think repetition is a good rational argument.

I read it. You gave me some nonsense about the Brady and Arians, which has nothing to do with the Patriots.

The remaining part of your response is woefully inadequate...

In 2021 they had a rookie QB. In 2022 they sucked all season offensively because Patricia is a clown, he's gone. "Every season" is actually one mostly competent season with a rookie QB and one throw away season with the worst offense coordinator in the league.

The timeframe is 2019 to 2022. 8-15 is the record. You ignored 2019 and 2020 altogether, blamed Mac I guess for 2021, and Patricia for 2022. Neither of those excuses for single seasons accounts for the 4 year trend when the only consistent is Belichick. He preaches late season surges but we've been getting is last season flops instead. To the tune of 8-15 after December 1.

You're deliriously obsessed with Brady... the guy is retired.

Move on with your life and pretend there are some great players still playing in 2023.

lol I talk about many of the great players still playing in the league all the time. You usually counter all of them unless they're Patriots. What does that tell us?

What was Brady's value in 2000, what was it in 2001?

2000?... 0 value. He was on the bench. His presence couldn't even motivate Drew to work harder.

2001?... tremendous value. They don't win that Super Bowl, or any of the others to follow, without Brady.

The offense went from 6th in scoring in 2021 to 25th in 2022... who persevered?

According to you... Zappe, Strange, Parker, Strong, and Kevin Harris. I'll add Stevenson to that list, he was great in 2022. Meyers had his best season (but we got rid of him because he didn't stroke BB's ego in his pressers).

Matt Patricia was a disaster, and you're talking about both sides of your mouth. On one hand BB sucks for hiring Patricia to run the offense, on the other hand the offense should have been great but wasn't and it was the QB's fault. The important thing is you keep your agenda flowing at peak efficiency. Good grief, you're more transparent than a wet t-shirt contest.

I've said repeatedly that Patricia was a disaster. I knew he would be and I was the first one to call it on the forum. Where were you?... probably defending the move tooth and nail. And BB does suck for making it happen, he just couldn't help himself from promoting more friends and family.

I never said the 2022 offense should have been great either. Had O'Brien arrived a year earlier, last season's offense wouldn't have been great because the QB wasn't good enough to be successful with what he was given to work with. It's why I think the team still has A LOT of work to do this offseason for me to agree they could be truly competitive in 2023.

Randy Moss on the Raiders in 2006 was washed up, Moss on the Patriots in 2007 was the best WR in the league.

Moss from 2006 to 2007 is your comp for Thornton 2022 to 2023??? And you're calling other people delusional.

 

[Wozzy]

I read it. You gave me some nonsense about the Brady and Arians, which has nothing to do with the Patriots.

No, I gave you answers prior to that that had nothing at all to do with Tampa. You ignored the answers.

You asked why, since the rebuild, the offense has sputtered after Thanksgiving. I told you exactly why, but I'll repeat it again because you don't want to read, you just want to respond as quickly as possible. I'll go backwards...

In 2022 they didn't get worse after Thanksgiving... they sucked before that, nothing changed. Patricia was the reason.

In 2021 they had a rookie QB with a doughy body who was used to playing 13 games at a much lower level of competition in college. The rest of the roster was also new players, with some younger players stepping into more prominent roles. Young players have to learn how to win in the NFL. When Tom entered the league he weighed 211 pounds at 6'4" and was a doughy mess also, luckily for him he wasn't asked to start.

The timeframe is 2019 to 2022. 8-15 is the record. You ignored 2019 and 2020 altogether, blamed Mac I guess for 2021, and Patricia for 2022. Neither of those excuses for single seasons accounts for the 4 year trend when the only consistent is Belichick. He preaches late season surges but we've been getting is last season flops instead. To the tune of 8-15 after December 1.

No, the time frame is 2021 and 2022.

In 2019 they were still "going all in" from the previous dynasty, and as much as you don't want to admit it, the sacred cow and offense is what failed that year. They had the #1 defense in the league, the offense was ranked 17th in scoring and got progressively worse game to game... Thanksgiving had nothing to do with it. Brady getting hurt and his decision to lobby for AB had everything to do with it.

2020 was a reset year, they intentionally took a down season to clear dead cap and bad contracts off the books. The upswing started in 2021 when they started reloading. Patricia in 2022 was a massive blunder but it has nothing to do with 2023... they will be substantially improved this year assuming health.

lol I talk about many of the great players still playing in the league all the time. You usually counter all of them unless they're Patriots. What does that tell us?

This sentence is barely legible and nonsensical. I gave my wish list of free agents from other teams prior to the offseason beginning. I speak to how good players on other teams are all the time.

2000?... 0 value. He was on the bench. His presence couldn't even motivate Drew to work harder.

So a young player who didn't get an opportunity didn't suck... but all our young developing players now automatically have no value. Sounds legit...

2001?... tremendous value. They don't win that Super Bowl, or any of the others to follow, without Brady.

Or Seymour, or AdamV, or Ty Law... and over a dozen other guys.

According to you... Zappe, Strange, Parker, Strong, and Kevin Harris. I'll add Stevenson to that list, he was great in 2022. Meyers had his best season (but we got rid of him because he didn't stroke BB's ego in his pressers).

Meyers best season was in 2021 and looks exactly like Bourne's best season... also in 2021. Juju for similar money is a better player, his best season eclipses Meyers best by almost 600 yards. Juju has matched or exceeded Jacobi's best season four times in a six year career. Meyers has only scored 8 TD's in his entire career, Juju did better than that in one season. Your hatred for BB is perplexing.

I've said repeatedly that Patricia was a disaster. I knew he would be and I was the first one to call it on the forum. Where were you?... probably defending the move tooth and nail. And BB does suck for making it happen, he just couldn't help himself from promoting more friends and family.

Again, some weird BB hate... but you'll quickly tell us you don't.

I never said the 2022 offense should have been great either. Had O'Brien arrived a year earlier, last season's offense wouldn't have been great because the QB wasn't good enough to be successful with what he was given to work with. It's why I think the team still has A LOT of work to do this offseason for me to agree they could be truly competitive in 2023.

They scored the 6th most points in the NFL when Mac was a rookie. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Moss from 2006 to 2007 is your comp for Thornton 2022 to 2023??? And you're calling other people delusional.

No joker... if the best WR in history can be neutered by a horrible offense around him, then a rookie in a horrible offense has no chance.

But leave it to you to completely miss the mark in pursuit of your agenda.

 

[Ian]

LOL, I'm in awe of @Wozzy's patience. Definitely impressive.

 

[Ring 6]

What?? Are you just putting random phrases together?


Sorry, Brady didn't walk into a "great team" in 2001. Records matter, right? The team was 5-13 with him on the sideline and then 14-3 once he became the starter. What's obvious there is the impact of a single player.

The rest of it is just the same old ridiculous argument. Because Brady didn't win 18 consecutive Super Bowls in New England, it shows us something, like he "couldn't" win in the seasons that the team fell short. The team appeared in the Super Bowl in 50% of Brady's seasons, that's a phenomenal percentage, and it's evidence that they could have won any given season, but obviously that's not actually going to happen every season, and when it doesn't, it doesn't mean they couldn't win, it just means they didn't. I would apply the same to 2020, 2021 & 2022, all of those Patriots teams would have had a chance with Brady, because they always did, and we saw him provide the same opportunities for another team (that hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years prior to his arrival).

Your argument is
1) WRs are vital to winning
2) Hill is a top 5 receiver

Hill went from Kc to Miami. Kc got better, Miami didn’t.

He is support of the argument that you are wrong about (1)


The 2001 team was a completely different team than the 2000 team.

 

[crawhammer]

No, the time frame is 2021 and 2022.

Um, how is it that you get to change my timeframe?? I said 2019 to 2022. Collectively 8-15 after December 1. Why?

You're giving me reasons for individual seasons. I can't change how you're responding to my question but you're not actually answering MY question.

You need to re-watch week 17 of the 2019 season too. Brady gave them the lead late in the 4th quarter. The defense pathetically couldn't stop Ryan Fitzpatrick. And Belichick managed timeouts as though he had been possessed by Todd Bowles.

So a young player who didn't get an opportunity didn't suck... but all our young developing players now automatically have no value. Sounds legit...

Sounds stupid. And also not something I said.

Or Seymour, or AdamV, or Ty Law... and over a dozen other guys.

I don't recall Seymour ever being dominant in the postseason. He didn't exactly tear it up as a rookie in 2001 either. I love Ty Law but they won in 2004 after he went down... 10-1 without him. I'll give Adam major cred for the game-tying FG in the Snow Bowl... given the conditions and the historical importance of the kick, it just may be the greatest made FG in the history of the NFL.

Meyers best season was in 2021 and looks exactly like Bourne's best season... also in 2021. Juju for similar money is a better player, his best season eclipses Meyers best by almost 600 yards. Juju has matched or exceeded Jacobi's best season four times in a six year career. Meyers has only scored 8 TD's in his entire career, Juju did better than that in one season. Your hatred for BB is perplexing.

I hate BB because I like Meyers and wanted him re-signed? That's a stupid opinion. I've been calling for Meyers to be re-signed since last spring, I like the player, he was a good fit for the offense. His best season was this past season, I did a stats comparison before to prove it (and as you like to say he was dealing with the catastrophe at OC).

I like Juju but he hasn't been the same player he was with AB terrorizing DBs on the other side of the field. I don't think Juju is a WR1. Although he probably can duplicate Meyers production, we'll see.

Again, some weird BB hate... but you'll quickly tell us you don't.

Did I say anything inaccurate there? Quote it.

They scored the 6th most points in the NFL when Mac was a rookie. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Who cares... there I'm talking about what the offense will look like in 2023. So far they've upgraded the TE2 spot, congratulations, Juju is nice, but they lost Meyers to offset that imo so I want to see what's next. They need to do more if they expect to be competitive with a mediocre QB like Mac.

No joker... if the best WR in history can be neutered by a horrible offense around him, then a rookie in a horrible offense has no chance.

You're not making a worthy point here. Who the **** knows what was going on with Moss in Oakland, he's a massive headcase, he clearly had checked out on that team, blatantly quit. He couldn't even keep his **** together in New England with the GOAT.

You want to say Thornton had no chance but he had 527 snaps (66%) with 45 targets of which he could only convert 48.9%. By comparison, Bourne had much fewer snaps with 441 (only 44%), and a similar number of targets with 48, but he hauled in 72.9% of those. Same offense, same OC, same QBs. I don't care if Thornton was supposedly blowing minds in training camp, he gave them very little when the real games started.

 

[crawhammer]

Your argument is
1) WRs are vital to winning
2) Hill is a top 5 receiver

Hill went from Kc to Miami. Kc got better, Miami didn’t.

He is support of the argument that you are wrong about (1)

So just to clarify further... Your argument is WRs are NOT vital to winning?

 

[crawhammer]

LOL, I'm in awe of @Wozzy's patience. Definitely impressive.

Come on, that's not fair coming from the Admin. Where's your impartiality? I think we're all trying to have patience.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

So just to clarify further... Your argument is WRs are NOT vital to winning?

forget it, he said miami did not got better lmao
miami's offense went from 25th to 6th despite their qb being out several weeks
the reason miami was not so good is their defense, it's a team sport
their offense was very good despite new coach, system, qb injured etc.
Miami made investments in the offense and they worked in the first year really well, the pats investments in the offense not so much
but he can't accept it as the biggest bb apologist

 

[Boston Boxer]

The looming question that will become louder over the next few years is whether Don Shula’s record will be broken for all-time victories by Belichick.

This deserves its own thread.

its the last piece to Belichick's legacy. BB will be around 2 more years

 

[Ian]

Come on, that's not fair coming from the Admin. Where's your impartiality? I think we're all trying to have patience.

This one's a little different. You and I have had back-and-forths on this topic, and you're not ever open to saying, "that's a good point" or even being even slightly open-minded. You've got your mind made up (the Bledsoe contract comment was brutal - like that was Belichick's idea or that he had remotely enough clout at the time to do anything about that [sigh] ), and as I've told you, your stubbornness makes it tough to have a discussion.

 

[Ian]

Come on, that's not fair coming from the Admin. Where's your impartiality? I think we're all trying to have patience.

I'll say this - you're a good dude, and I try to be patient [you know how far I've gone on this], but I do wish you'd be a little more willing to bend a bit. Would certainly make for some better discussions, I think.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

After SB42 is when I threw the Kool-Aid away. I've been critical/skeptical of more of his moves than not since.

An unquestionably long and draining season, at the same time as fun and glorious.

While Shula was tagged as 'not able to win the big one', a moniker Landry dropped the previous year over those Dolphins, practically nobody even knew about their actual transgression and penalty, and it was 'when will they finally lose' at the most.

So while there was national insanity stemming from decades of national prejudice, ultimately it came down to Belichick loves the Giants. He knows it. There was nothing on the bulletin board, despite mountains of material. The most we got was injured ankle Tom typically taking the high road about being held to 14 points (as they were) and Coach making a feeble reference pregame about this being the last chance to play in a season dedicated to Marquise Hill, who in actual heroic fashion saved a young woman before losing his life - more laudatory for me than anything Sean Taylor ever did - and I doubt there was any mention of the VaGiants dressing for the Patriots' 'funeral'.

Of course, eschewing a highly likely made FG, taking three points off the board and damaging the kicker's confidence, and McDaniels dropping the quarterback back to pass fifty times with a bad ankle against a team whose single solitary thing they did effectively all season was rush the passer, had a lot to do with it, too

 

[Sfpat]

forget it, he said miami did not got better lmao
miami's offense went from 25th to 6th despite their qb being out several weeks
the reason miami was not so good is their defense, it's a team sport
their offense was very good despite new coach, system, qb injured etc.
Miami made investments in the offense and they worked in the first year really well, the pats investments in the offense not so much
but he can't accept it as the biggest bb apologist

Not to jump into the middle of the discussion but now I am confused. You claim the reason Miami did not improve (W/L) is because of the defense and that it is a team game. This goes against the claim that it was TB who was solely responsible for the Pats winning (not necessarily your position but that of many on this board). So is it a team game or just the QB? Need to keep the logic straight.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Not to jump into the middle of the discussion but now I am confused. You claim the reason Miami did not improve (W/L) is because of the defense and that it is a team game. This goes against the claim that it was TB who was solely responsible for the Pats winning (not necessarily your position but that of many on this board). So is it a team game or just the QB? Need to keep the logic straight.

team game
qb play obv has a big influence because mistakes like turnovers can be game changing but team game

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

LOL! No way, brother. Not with BB's $100 mil franchise quarterback Drew Bledsoe. Maybe BB's worst GM decision ever... he wouldn't have made too many more either because Drew would have sent him into unemployment in short order.

Bill went along with Kraft, because Kraft is the boss and you don't carry much cache when you go 5-11. And the deal actually saved cap space.

It's amazing if you read the article, with Kraft saying literally everything that was really applicable to Tom infinitely, only he said it about Drew, which no matter how much you like Bledsoe is laughably absurd.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I would rather scoop my brains out with a melon baller than betray my beloved Coach Belichick.

Bill's done a lot of things really, really well.

...and he's done some miserably wrong and stupid things as well.

News flash! He's human. I still like Bill.

But last season's been giving me nightmares.

Even Red Auerbach made some boo-boos. But he recognized them, admitted it and tried to learn from them.

Kraft (that new Revs logo) and Belichick ("it's second down and six, and Jones drops back to pass...") don't.

 

[PatsfanTN]

Get Lamar and ill drink a straight gallon of that kool aid again.

 

[crawhammer]

(the Bledsoe contract comment was brutal - like that was Belichick's idea or that he had remotely enough clout at the time to do anything about that [sigh] )

I'm open to this. Like I suppose I'm not certain who did or did not want that Bledsoe mega-deal. Bill was hired as the head coach and general manager of the team, right? I thought Kraft hired Bill with an epiphany that even as the team's owner he needed to stay in his own lane and let the HC coach and the GM manage. After the whole debacle with the other Bill and the failure with Pete.

My assumption is Belichick would have at least signed off on that Bledsoe deal. I mean there's not a bigger decision for a team to make. How could Kraft have done that absent Bill's complete approval? I keep hearing, from members of the forum, that Bill had "nothing to do with it" and it was "all Robert Kraft's doing." I just don't recall ever seeing or hearing any actual confirmation of it. So I find it very hard to believe it went down like that.