Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by oldrover, Nov 20, 2019.
He would vote for Paul brown
I like Walsh for his innovations to the game. The only thing Shula added was a grumpy assed **** and a bad Steakhouse. Other than that, agree.
Paul Brown innovations:
the face mask
many of the now-standard training camp drills
the draw play
a practice squad
running a 3 OG rotation, with one bringing in the play from the sidelines to the huddle
radio headset so the coach can talk directly to the QB (this was he 50s or 60s!)
BB has often spoke glowingly about Paul Brown, who was also a gruff SOB!
He changed the game more than anyone.
I was not impressed with "Shula's" at all.
"Ditka's" was MUCH better.
First cut, Tony Dungy.
A prime cut.
Dungy nothing but an affirmative action selection...if going the affirmative action route why not name tomlin...13 seasons Dungy has .668 win %, Tomlin has .646
Tomlin been to 2 super bowls and won 1....
Dungy only went once and won 1...
And Tomlin didn't have his GM change the rules to suit his team
And Tomlin didn't have the leagues favorite player who got all the calls
This got me thinking about what makes a GREAT HC.
Leadership - which in the end is a function of Credibility and the Culture you develop with your team
Strategy - What you do to give your team an edge
Game day presence - As Bill said today (and I paraphrase) Football is like war. You know going in that whatever plan you have going in, once the game starts, it all falls apart and you have to adjust on the fly
Contributions to the game: What are the things you brought to the game over time, that made it better.
This is why I think each of these guys are on this list (briefly)
Bill Belichick (1991-1995; 2000-current) see below
Paul Brown (1946-1962; 1968-1975) The most important innovator in NFL history (as noted by others)
Guy Chamberlin (1922-1927) First time I ever heard his name
Tony Dungy (1996-2008) ran 2 relatively successful teams over 13 seasons
Weeb Ewbank (1954-1973) Coached the Jets and lived to tell about it.
Joe Gibbs (1954-1973) Won 3 superbowls with 3 DIFFERENT QB's
Sid Gillman (1955-1969; 1973-1974) - Helped reinvent the modern passing game
Bud Grant (1954-1973) - won a LOTof games over a LOT of years
George Halas (1920-1929; 1933-1967) - coached a LOT of years
Curly Lambeau (1921-1953) - has a field named after him
Tom Landry (1960-1988) - another great innovator who won superbowls and built a very strong and long lasting culture
Marv Levy (1978-1982; 1986-1997) - went the the superbowl 4 consecutive years (and is Jewish)
Vince Lombardi (1959-1967; 1969) - The best HC of HIS era.
John Madden (1969-1978) - Doesn't belong on this list
Chuck Noll (1969-1991) - Won 4 superbowls
Steve Owen (1930-1953) - Evidently coached a long time
Bill Parcells (1983-1990; 1993-1999; 2003-2006) - Front running, self promoter, who could build teams, but not maintain them
Fritz Pollard (1918-1921; 1925, 1928) Historically important
Don Shula (1963-1995) - Hate the guy, but he sure did win a LOT of football games.
Bill Walsh (1979-1988) - Very successful but also a great innovator. One of my favs.
Why Bellichick is #1
1. He'd done it for a LONG time. People try to down grade his time in Cleveland, but it took a lot longer to build a team in those days, and he built a good one before the owner chopped his legs out from under him. His success in NE needs no explanation.
2. He's been a great innovator and has led many transitions in the league. When 90% of the league was running a 4-3, he ran a 3-4, and within a decade most teams were running 3-4's (which was when he went back to the 4-3 )
He was the first to run 2 TE's as a base in this century. When football was getting rid of the FB position, he developed on of the best and made him a staple of the offense. As well as other innovations or reinventions.
3. Perhaps the most important innovation that has helped this run of success in NE was creating the environment where within a week he could give his team the advantage of week-specific game plans on both offense and defense.
There is a REASON why every team in the league doesn't do this. Semantics plays a big part in this. Bill has, over the years, created a language that allows a great deal of information to be dispensed in very few words. He has created a culture of SMART football players who can learn fast enough and be positionally flexible enough to be able to execute a different plan every week.
I don't think there has EVER been a head coach who has shown he can win with ANY system that helps him win football games. Who has proven over and over again that he will use whatever "system" happens to fit the talent that he has in a particular year.
There have been football players who have come through NE over the last 20 years. Many have succeeded, some have failed to different degrees, but in EVERY case that player was a better player going out, than he was coming in, and THAT is greatness in a HC. Just listen to what Michael Bennett said about him today.
4. Good football play is a function of good coaching. A much overlooked aspect of being a great HC is the development of assistant coaches, because no ONE coach can do it all. You have to have good assistants and to get them, most of the time you have to develop them. Create a program where coaches can LEARN to be eventual important contributors to the effort. Bill has done that in spades. Very few big name assistants. Very few former players. (though I love the fact that Troy and Mayo are on the staff.) Mostly a lot of no name guys who have gone from gofers, "quality control" assistants, to assistant position coaches, to position coaches, to coordinators, and beyond.
5. The LONG TERM success of Bill Bellichick who is coaching in the era of free agency, salary caps, and a draft system that is supposed to create mediocrity is simply astounding. No one else can even come close. I love guys like Walsh and Brown who innovated so much. But they won in part BECAUSE of those innovations. And when they weren't "innovations" anymore, it got harder to win.
The Ravens are winning because they are running an offense that was the "in thing" in the 1930's And what makes Bill such a great coach is how he will adjust to what is unique in today's game. Hopefully it will happen at our next meeting, but if not, by next season. Because that is what makes Bill the GOAT.
I accidentally posted that before I finished. But you are correct.
Not sure if anyone here watched their top 100 “game changers” episodes, but they included Landry at 19, Lombardi at 12, Belichick at 11, Walsh at 5 (!!!), and Brown at 1.
They attributed Walsh’s high ranking to his innovative offense, having brought the West coast style to the league. Out of all of the coaches rankings, I thought this one was ridiculous.
BB has changed the game, how to manage a team and how to build rosters.. comparing BB to any coach prior to that happening is difficult..
BB is not only a great coach, but he knows the game, the history and all of its rules.. how many times has he manipulated something to his favor that no one knows about..
I became a believer after the game plan for stopping the "Greatest Show on Turf" in Super Bowl XXXVI, Ty Law et al mugged the Rams WR's which later caused a rule change.. he probably has caused more rule changes than any other coach..
His legacy got a jump start when he was with Parcells at the NYG, his Super Bowl XXV defensive game plan is in the NFL Hall of Fame.. his list of adaptation/successes is exhaustive.
I liked Paul Brown and was a Browns fan up to 1969, but as good as Brown was the game was so much different on many levels, not sure how a comparison can be made..
The salary cap alone differentiates BB from many of the others on the list. Shula, Landry, Walsh et al never had to deal with those issues.
There is no question as to who is the greatest coach of all time.. we watch him for 19 weeks every fall/winter..
What does that mean?? He was still a great coach, put together one of the great coaching staffs in his time. Won SB with 3 different QB's. Granted he had a great owner and when JKC died the run dried up. JG was also a great offensive coach.
Definitely underappreciated. Never given the credit he deserved. SBIII still one of my all time favorite games.
I love this review. I cringe when people want him in the Pats HOF. Does not belong on the list.
"Bill Parcells (1983-1990; 1993-1999; 2003-2006) - Front running, self promoter, who could build teams, but not maintain them"
These kind of lists are impossible because of different circumstances.
The pre 1950's teams are impossible for us to evaluate and should be in a separate category (even I'm not old enough to have watched them).
You could probably differentiate from 1950 up to free agency but even then, football prior to 1970 was more more brutal.
Yup, definitely an exercise in futility for me.
Nah. I think he'd pick Paul Brown. I might do the same. Gotta think about it. Between the two of them for 1 and 2, IMHO. Walsh was an innovator, but he didn't coach long enough.
I used to be in that camp, but I've reconsidered over the years. No one could turn teams around better than Parcells. And, without Parcells, the odds that BB would be HC of the NEP are pretty long.
In my mind, these are the successful coaches that changed the game. If longevity is very important, obviously Halas should be considered. I don't think that any others should get consideration.
Separate names with a comma.