Eric Bienemy Available

[Ring 6]

Total Net yards:
Week 6: 291
Week 7: 295
Week 8: 248
Week 9: 295
Week 10: 328
Week 11: 382
Week 12: 269
Week 13: 422

Point Totals:
Weeks 6-9: 79 points
Weeks 10-13: 80 points

Red Zone:
Week 13: 2-of-6 (33%)
Week 12: 0-of-0
Week 11: 2-of-5 (40%)
Week 10: 1-of-5 (20%)
Week 9: 2-of-2 (100%)
Week 8: 3-of-4 (75%)
Week 7: 2-of-2 (100%)
Week 6: 1-of-1 (100%)

Maye's totals:
Weeks 6-9: 93/142 (65.5%) 932yds 7 TDs 5 INTs
Weeks 10-13: 75/106 (70.8%) 742yds 4 TDs 3 INTs

Maye's Red Zone Totals:
Weeks 6-9: 8/13 (61.5%) 51yds 3 TDs 0 INTs
Weeks 10-13: 10/17 (58.8%) 63yds 4 TDs *1 INT (*that unlucky pick to Henry last Sunday)

I don't know ... save for the Dolphins game where they fell behind, allowing Miami to tee off on them, their total net yards have been rising as of late. Again, not saying Van Pelt is great, but they've at least been slowly improving. Maye's also been more accurate, and he's been getting notably better each week. Their biggest issue right now is their red zone success, which has dipped in recent weeks. They've missed a significant amount of opportunities by comparison to the number of chances they had prior. Otherwise, their point total would be higher.

All of the above is available for you to mess with on here (the point totals by week, stats by week, etc.). The only thing I do have to add are the overall red zone success totals and total NET yards, which I realized after I had to go dig them up outside of here.

And try and keep in mind, this is an offense that has been competitive and improving with a receiving group that I think the majority of people in here think little of, so it's not as much of a dumpster fire as you're sort of making it out to be.

Last week’s game was encouraging but it was against a team ranked 27 vs the pass and 27 vs the run.
I’m not saying Mayes hasn’t grown at all or that they aren’t throwing a little more to increase yardage, but I don’t see MARKED improvement in what you posted. Ppg has been the same.

The premise was the offensive coaching staff is doing a great job with Maye and ever since he took over the offense has been getting better and better.
I see a jump by putting him in and then pretty much the same level since. Remember we have one just one game that he started and finished despite him playing really well (and being held back by penalties, sacks, drops, excessive pressure, etc).

I didn’t say it’s a dumpster fire, but aside from Maye it really is.
If Brissett played all 13 games we would certainly be the worst offense in the league and wouldn’t see improvement. I mean what can you point to as improvement besides Maye, especially if you consider consistency (ie once in a while we have a good ruining game but more often we can’t run at all except for Maye scrambling)

 

[Ring 6]

This is a joke, right? Why wouldn’t we? Because he is a terrible OC when he is calling plays, not Reid.

So you want the guy who didn’t call plays in offenses that stunk then came here to call plays and sucks at it over the guy who ran the best offense in football for 5 years, the 5 best of Andy Reid’s career, because he went to a talent less Washington team and didn’t make it great in his first season?

Ok. I’ll take the guy who has had great success, you can have the guy who has failed.

 

[Ian]

Last week’s game was encouraging but it was against a team ranked 27 vs the pass and 27 vs the run.
I’m not saying Mayes hasn’t grown at all or that they aren’t throwing a little more to increase yardage, but I don’t see MARKED improvement in what you posted. Ppg has been the same.

The premise was the offensive coaching staff is doing a great job with Maye and ever since he took over the offense has been getting better and better.
I see a jump by putting him in and then pretty much the same level since. Remember we have one just one game that he started and finished despite him playing really well (and being held back by penalties, sacks, drops, excessive pressure, etc).

I didn’t say it’s a dumpster fire, but aside from Maye it really is.
If Brissett played all 13 games we would certainly be the worst offense in the league and wouldn’t see improvement. I mean what can you point to as improvement besides Maye, especially if you consider consistency (ie once in a while we have a good ruining game but more often we can’t run at all except for Maye scrambling)

Based on your logic, though, would that have meant Bill O’Brien should have been fired last year? Or does context - the QB, lack of receivers, offensive line, etc - matter? I would also argue AVP has been getting the most he can from this group and has at least stopped repeating some of the early mistakes we saw this season…?

Again, not my first choice, but I’ll give AVP credit for being among the coaches who has at least been getting better, not worse.

 

[Ian]

So you want the guy who didn’t call plays in offenses that stunk then came here to call plays and sucks at it over the guy who ran the best offense in football for 5 years, the 5 best of Andy Reid’s career, because he went to a talent less Washington team and didn’t make it great in his first season?

Ok. I’ll take the guy who has had great success, you can have the guy who has failed.

You don’t find it odd that given the emphasis on offensive coordinators in recent years, and given the team he coached, that it’s not a little odd that teams aren’t clamoring for his services?

 

[Ring 6]

Also - this will blow your mind. The Patriots' offense last year scored 13 points from weeks 10-13 (four games). They've scored 80 over the same span this year.

Edit: Week 11 was a bye - they scored 30 from Weeks 9-13 in 2023. Still 50 points behind where they are over their recent four-game span this season.

Didn’t blow my mind I was there. If our bar is better than the worst offensive month in the history of the franchise, we will always be happy.

So you think if we just stay the course and make no changes you are happy with the offense??? That seems to be your standpoint.

 

[Ian]

Didn’t blow my mind I was there. If our bar is better than the worst offensive month in the history of the franchise, we will always be happy.

So you think if we just stay the course and make no changes you are happy with the offense??? That seems to be your standpoint.

Coaching-wise, yes, at least through the end of the season. I’m not ready to kick AVP to the curb yet. Not after seeing what he’s done with Maye.

But offensive tackle and a top WR is a huge need for this group. Sort of wonder how much better a couple of these receivers would be if the club had a guy who demanded attention. They’ve got a bunch of 3s and 4s right now, which also doesn’t help.

 

[Ring 6]

Based on your logic, though, would that have meant Bill O’Brien should have been fired last year? Or does context - the QB, lack of receivers, offensive line, etc - matter? I would also argue AVP has been getting the most he can from this group and has at least stopped repeating some of the early mistakes we saw this season…?

Again, not my first choice, but I’ll give AVP credit for being among the coaches who has been getting better, not worse.

Bill OBrien should have been fired last year. No question.

Look at our offense. Maye is single handedly carrying it in his back.
The OL is undisciplined, with many pre and post snap penalties.
Pass protection is poor usually at the worst times. Weak OTs are left one on one far too often.
We are horrendous at beating the blitz with an uncovered rusher, and seem to not even have a hot route concept in our offense.
We cannot run the ball consistently, since Maye took over he is our leading rusher (all scrambles no designed runs) and everyone else averages 70 yards a game.
Our top WR gets 38 receiving yards a game and has caused 2 ints by not knowing what to do.

We are 25th on 3rd down.
We are 30th in the red zone.
We are 30th in points per drive
We are 28th in yards per drive.
We have punted the 5th most times


I am very surprised that you have watched this offense and consider it well coached.

 

[Ian]

Bill OBrien should have been fired last year. No question.

Look at our offense. Maye is single handedly carrying it in his back.
The OL is undisciplined, with many pre and post snap penalties.
Pass protection is poor usually at the worst times. Weak OTs are left one on one far too often.
We are horrendous at beating the blitz with an uncovered rusher, and seem to not even have a hot route concept in our offense.
We cannot run the ball consistently, since Maye took over he is our leading rusher (all scrambles no designed runs) and everyone else averages 70 yards a game.
Our top WR gets 38 receiving yards a game and has caused 2 ints by not knowing what to do.

We are 25th on 3rd down.
We are 30th in the red zone.
We are 30th in points per drive
We are 28th in yards per drive.
We have punted the 5th most times


I am very surprised that you have watched this offense and consider it well coached.

I wouldn’t say “well coached.” Again, I’d say he’s gotten better and learned from some of his mistakes in recent weeks and their offensive production - red zone aside - reflects that. However, I would say that the receivers/offensive line coaches will be scrutinized this off-season. Granted, talent is an issue, but so is probably coaching inexperience. And I think the connection to the University of Washington might have let them down this off-season. Unless Polk makes a significant turnaround, which is still possible. I certainly have more hope for him than I did for Thornton.

But I would argue the defensive side is the bigger problem and I’d put Covington ahead of AVP in terms of guys doing a worse job right now. Especially considering Covington is doing less with more, by comparison.

 

[Ring 6]

Coaching-wise, yes, at least through the end of the season. I’m not ready to kick AVP to the curb yet. Not after seeing what he’s done with Maye.

But offensive tackle and a top WR is a huge need for this group. Sort of wonder how much better a couple of these receivers would be if the club had a guy who demanded attention. They’ve got a bunch of 3s and 4s right now, which also doesn’t help.

Well I’m not talking about firing people with 4 games left. I would support hiring someone who is available though before losing them.

See I just don’t get where people this Van Pelt has done something with Maye. I see it as Maye is playing well in spite of Van Pelt.

But it’s the OCs job to put players in a position to succeed.
Remember how Nate Solder had such a good rep here and then stunk badly when he left? It was because we ran an offense where either the ball was coming out quickly or he got help.
Passing plays are designed to get receivers open. Look at the better passing schemes, SF, the Rams, etc. whoever plays gets open because the okay call gets them open. Most “pretty good” receivers putting up pretty good numbers aren’t doing special things, they are running their route within a combination of routes. Yes there are elite receivers who just beat defenders, but the vast majority of completed passes are schemes. Our guy isn’t good at that.

Here are the passing rankings of the offenses he has been OC of.

30,24,27,22,19,32 (and btw the 19 ranking was accompanied by leading the league in ints).

My issues with Van Pelt is that his knowledge, acumen , skill and ability to create, design, operate and call an NFL passing offense just aren’t strong.
He fails to utilize motion. He doesn’t have strong pass protection concepts, his play design is lacking and really there just doesn’t seem to be a clear, confident this is how we do it philosophy. It shows up every week.

Here’s an AVP anomaly I have noticed. It’s extremely clear from his play calling and decision making that rather than a “chunk play” philosophy; trying to make first downs on first and second at the risk of being in 3rd and long, he has the “stay on schedule” philosophy wanting to prioritize not getting into 3rd and long.
However, he calls a VERY VERY high frequency of outside runs, and WR screens in first down, which are much more boom or bust plays than staying inside the numbers. Shanahan and McVay do that too but that’s because they run a chunk play offensive philosophy. It’s just inconsistent.
AVP to me seems like a guy who takes a bunch of different ideas from a bunch of different places and throws them together but lacks an overall philosophy or plan to implement them.

I just don’t see us ever winning with him.

 

[Ian]

Well I’m not talking about firing people with 4 games left. I would support hiring someone who is available though before losing them.

See I just don’t get where people this Van Pelt has done something with Maye. I see it as Maye is playing well in spite of Van Pelt.

You can't cherry pick. Because the argument would potentially be whether or not Maye would be this far along at this point without him, and I don't think he would.

He fails to utilize motion.

Again, you've painted the guy into a corner and assume that he's not realizing his mistakes and trying to become a better coordinator:

This is from Evan Lazar:

"4. Patriots Offense Incorporating More Motion the Second Half of the Season

One talking point surrounding the Patriots scheme under offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt is how often the offense is or isn't incorporating motion into their play designs.

Motion, as referred to here, is when an offensive player shifts before the snap to relocate to a different spot in the formation or motions at the snap (example: jet motion). Offenses use motion to undress the coverage, create space and blocking angles in the defense, or act as eye candy or a decoy. To further explain undressing the coverage, the defense must tip its hand when a player comes in motion. For example, if a defender follows the motion man, it's most likely man coverage.

This season, teams average nearly identical yardage when they motion (5.5 yards) compared to when they don't motion (5.6). It's possible that means defenses are catching up on how to handle motion, but historically, plays with motion produce more yards than plays without motion. The top offenses in motion rate are also considered the hardest offenses to defend in the NFL: Rams, Dolphins, 49ers, Packers, Lions, Bills, Chiefs.

The Patriots rank 13th in overall motion rate, including shifts (66.2%), but are only 26th in motion at the snap rate (27.1%). However, their motion rate has increased over the last three weeks, with a 71.9% motion rate and a 30.6% motion at the snap rate. Last week, they used motion 20 times to stress the Colts zone coverage defense. One possibility as to why the Pats are slowly incorporating motion is that they have a first-year quarterback. The quarterback's responsible for controlling the motions pre-snap so that they're legal and timed up to the snap, so maybe the coaching staff didn't want to put too much on Maye's plate too soon.

Hopefully, the motion that led to several successful plays for the Patriots offense against the Colts continues for an offense that needs any scheme-aided help it can get."

Nine Advanced Stats on the Patriots at the Bye Week

A deep dive into the Patriots advanced metrics as they break for the bye 13 weeks into the season.

www.patriots.com

Again, I'm not married to AVP by any means, albeit I'd prefer continuity-wise for him to succeed. And I'll give him credit and the benefit of the doubt for taking the steps forward that he has so far.

 

[Ring 6]

I wouldn’t say “well coached.” Again, I’d say he’s gotten better and learned from some of his mistakes in recent weeks and their offensive production - red zone aside - reflects that. However, I would say that the receivers/offensive line coaches will be scrutinized this off-season. Granted, talent is an issue, but so is probably coaching inexperience. And I think the connection to the University of Washington might have let them down this off-season. Unless Polk makes a significant turnaround, which is still possible. I certainly have more hope for him than I did for Thornton.

But I would argue the defensive side is the bigger problem and I’d put Covington ahead of AVP in terms of guys doing a worse job right now. Especially considering Covington is doing less with more, by comparison.

I get your logic. The offense stunk and the defense was good.

But I actually see it differently.

On defense I think Covington was given the most complex defense probably in the history of the NFL. And that includes having built a system that fit pieces together unconventionally and always got more than the sum of the parts. It’s like I took 25 years to build a complex puzzle with many moving parts and only I truly understand how each part impacts the others, the. I hand it to you. You may be a lot smarter than me but you won’t see what I saw.
Then you start removing parts (guy, Barmore, Wilson, mills, Bryant Philips, Judon and replaced them with virtually no one.
I saw this coming.

Bit on offense you have the QB. With an effective OC and good play calling you can overcome any issues with other personnel at least to the point of being average.
We are currently 32nd in the nfl in passing offense. That should not happen.

Should we win a SB with these offensive players, of course not, but with Maye we should be a better than average offense.
We don’t have the OC who can do that, which also means when we get better players they are held back too

Alex Van Pelt came into the NFL as a QB 30 years ago and became a coach 29 years ago and we are the first team to trust him to run our offense completely. I don’t see him suddenly becoming good at it. There have to be better choices.

 

[Ring 6]

You can't cherry pick. Because the argument would potentially be whether or not Maye would be this far along at this point without him, and I don't think he would.

Again, you've painted the guy into a corner and assume that he's not realizing his mistakes and trying to become a better coordinator:

This is from Evan Lazar:

"4. Patriots Offense Incorporating More Motion the Second Half of the Season

One talking point surrounding the Patriots scheme under offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt is how often the offense is or isn't incorporating motion into their play designs.

Motion, as referred to here, is when an offensive player shifts before the snap to relocate to a different spot in the formation or motions at the snap (example: jet motion). Offenses use motion to undress the coverage, create space and blocking angles in the defense, or act as eye candy or a decoy. To further explain undressing the coverage, the defense must tip its hand when a player comes in motion. For example, if a defender follows the motion man, it's most likely man coverage.

This season, teams average nearly identical yardage when they motion (5.5 yards) compared to when they don't motion (5.6). It's possible that means defenses are catching up on how to handle motion, but historically, plays with motion produce more yards than plays without motion. The top offenses in motion rate are also considered the hardest offenses to defend in the NFL: Rams, Dolphins, 49ers, Packers, Lions, Bills, Chiefs.

The Patriots rank 13th in overall motion rate, including shifts (66.2%), but are only 26th in motion at the snap rate (27.1%). However, their motion rate has increased over the last three weeks, with a 71.9% motion rate and a 30.6% motion at the snap rate. Last week, they used motion 20 times to stress the Colts zone coverage defense. One possibility as to why the Pats are slowly incorporating motion is that they have a first-year quarterback. The quarterback's responsible for controlling the motions pre-snap so that they're legal and timed up to the snap, so maybe the coaching staff didn't want to put too much on Maye's plate too soon.

Hopefully, the motion that led to several successful plays for the Patriots offense against the Colts continues for an offense that needs any scheme-aided help it can get."

Nine Advanced Stats on the Patriots at the Bye Week

A deep dive into the Patriots advanced metrics as they break for the bye 13 weeks into the season.

www.patriots.com

Again, I'm not married to AVP by any means, albeit I'd prefer continuity-wise for him to succeed. And I'll give him credit and the benefit of the doubt for taking the steps forward that he has so far.

I’m not cherry picking. Maye is carrying the offense with no help from his OC in making his job easier or getting more out of using players better.

They were 26th at 27.1% then increased to 30.6% How does that demonstrate he learned something? That may be about 2 times a game, which easily could be a reflection of game situation or run/pass mix instead of philosophical changes.

But ultimately do you want a guy in charge of the offense and your franchise QB who after 10 years as a QB and 20 as a coach is still figuring out motion?
I don’t care so much about the frequency of motion, but more about he has a strong, solid, well thought out scheme, concepts and game plans that are string and he is good at implementing them.

Lack of continuity is better than keeping ineffective people.

 

[Boomer B]

I wonder if Andy can take a leave again

 

[Ian]

I get your logic. The offense stunk and the defense was good.

But I actually see it differently.

On defense I think Covington was given the most complex defense probably in the history of the NFL. And that includes having built a system that fit pieces together unconventionally and always got more than the sum of the parts. It’s like I took 25 years to build a complex puzzle with many moving parts and only I truly understand how each part impacts the others, the. I hand it to you. You may be a lot smarter than me but you won’t see what I saw.
Then you start removing parts (guy, Barmore, Wilson, mills, Bryant Philips, Judon and replaced them with virtually no one.
I saw this coming.

Bit on offense you have the QB. With an effective OC and good play calling you can overcome any issues with other personnel at least to the point of being average.
We are currently 32nd in the nfl in passing offense. That should not happen.

Should we win a SB with these offensive players, of course not, but with Maye we should be a better than average offense.
We don’t have the OC who can do that, which also means when we get better players they are held back too

Alex Van Pelt came into the NFL as a QB 30 years ago and became a coach 29 years ago and we are the first team to trust him to run our offense completely. I don’t see him suddenly becoming good at it. There have to be better choices.

So you’re giving Covington a pass because the defense is “complex”? Barmore has been back for a couple of games now, and have you not seen how out of position they’ve been both at the linebacker and secondary level? Or the players saying after multiple games how not on the same page they’ve been? That’s a coaching thing. I don’t recall seeing that prior to this year. At least not consistently.

And as for Judon, (pass rush), I don’t know if you’ve seen how that turned out, but that draft pick feels like gold right now compared to how he’s been playing. Either way, Covington has been on the worse side of things as of late by comparison. And AVP has at least been trending upward.

Regardless, Bienemy is not the guy and I’ll absolutely take AVP if he at least keeps improving. 31 other teams seem to also feel the same way. For now, I’ll see how these final four weeks go and see if by January I feel any differently.

 

[dliverey44]

The difference is it performed much better with Bieniemy as OC

You're right, but I was hoping to gain more insight into why they are performing better with roughly the same roster. Is EB just more aggressive in certain situations than Pederson and Nacy, using more motion to confuse the defense or if there is a schematic difference in the 3 OC's. Your question just brough about an interesting case study for me as to why the result is better with EB.

Sadly it is not important enough to go back watch and try to decipher the differences. I was hoping you had some insight and I realize that I did not ask in such a way to express my curiousiy.

 

[Ring 6]

I wonder if Andy can take a leave again

I wonder if you can GFY

 

[dliverey44]

Whose to say that isn’t part of Mayo’s directive to be conservative at the end of the half or games?

I would put money on the overall lack of aggression coming from Mayo. Since he listens to all the offensive calls that he would interject if he wanted more aggression.

 

[Ring 6]

You're right, but I was hoping to gain more insight into why they are performing better with roughly the same roster. Is EB just more aggressive in certain situations than Pederson and Nacy, using more motion to confuse the defense or if there is a schematic difference in the 3 OC's. Your question just brough about an interesting case study for me as to why the result is better with EB.

Sadly it is not important enough to go back watch and try to decipher the differences. I was hoping you had some insight and I realize that I did not ask in such a way to express my curiousiy.

There can be a million reasons. OCs don’t just draw up plays and call them. They have enormous responsibilities. The position coaches work under three, so everything they are doing to evaluate, train and coach up their players is under the OC direction. They run practice for the offense a did there is any fan base that understands FA the value of practice it’s ours, same with meetings. They decide who plays, when they play, what groupings they want to use. They determine the identity of the offense. They film review and direct the entire off staff on what improvements are needed. They are responsible for the game plan and the adjustments in the game plan on game day. And that’s just a sampling.

 

[Ring 6]

So you’re giving Covington a pass because the defense is “complex”? Barmore has been back for a couple of games now, and have you not seen how out of position they’ve been both at the linebacker and secondary level? Or the players saying after multiple games how not on the same page they’ve been? That’s a coaching thing. I don’t recall seeing that prior to this year. At least not consistently.

And as for Judon, (pass rush), I don’t know if you’ve seen how that turned out, but that draft pick feels like gold right now compared to how he’s been playing. Either way, Covington has been on the worse side of things as of late by comparison. And AVP has at least been trending upward.

Regardless, Bienemy is not the guy and I’ll absolutely take AVP if he at least keeps improving. 31 other teams seem to also feel the same way. For now, I’ll see how these final four weeks go and see if by January I feel any differently.

I’m not giving Covington a pass, I’m saying he walked into a defense that was coached as well as any has been and is complex and had a decrease in talent, so I expected it. Understand that doesn’t make it acceptable. It’s his job and he needs to figure it out regardless of the obstacles and challenges. Because ultimately there are always obstacles and challenges and being a good coach means overcoming them whatever they are.

31 other teams, nine of which would give AVP responsibility feel he deserved it? Where did you get that?

Again, I’m not seeing improvement in AVP. I’m seeing the worst offense in football rescued by Maye and becoming a below average offense doing worse than teams with lesser QBs that hasn’t grown at all over and above what Maye gives them over Brissett.
Do you think the play calling is good? Do you like the way he creates plays to get WRs open? Do you like how he sets up the pass with the run or vice versa? Do you think we have a good screen game? Do you like the protection schemes? Do you see an identity you like? I don’t see any of that.

In fact, I’ll say this. The biggest difference in the offense has been Maye keeping plays and drives alive by scrambling and being the #1 rusher. If he wasn’t mobile, would the offense really be much better than it was with Brissett? How much of the modest scoring increase was from drives kept alive with scrambles? OC had nothing to do with that.



What about Bieniemy do you think makes him worse than AVP. He has consistently done better. He has accomplished multitudes more. Why would you not want him?

 

[Ian]

I’m not giving Covington a pass, I’m saying he walked into a defense that was coached as well as any has been and is complex and had a decrease in talent, so I expected it. Understand that doesn’t make it acceptable. It’s his job and he needs to figure it out regardless of the obstacles and challenges. Because ultimately there are always obstacles and challenges and being a good coach means overcoming them whatever they are.

31 other teams, nine of which would give AVP responsibility feel he deserved it?

I was referring to 31 other teams passing on Bienemy.

Where did you get that?

Again, I’m not seeing improvement in AVP.

Ok, we’ve already seen flexibility and a desire to improve, and the numbers - and what Lazar pointed out - shows that he’s at least making progress.

But based on what I’ve read and the lack of interest around the league - I’m siding with continuity unless someone younger from the McVay/Shanahan coaching tree comes free. I also don’t want Maye to have to deal with multiple coordinaters, which is why I’m rooting for success, not failure here.