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ELITE PASS-RUSHERS, Over-analyzed

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Lets say it's Ty Warren, Wilfork and Wilkerson, does that do it???

Personally I would not see a big increase in sacks with that combo.
Am figuring Warren is not quite what he was years ago, read on here that Wilkerson is similar to Ty Warren, not known for generating a pass rush.

I want to add speed. It's killed us in the recent past.
Draft Speed (Bowers?) and run defense(Wilkerson?).


Conversely, I'd like to see how much more effective the pass rush from Ninkovich and Cunningham becomes once we restore a 30-front that offenses have to respect.
 
Thi is why stats make me laugh.. 07 defense wasn't as nearly as good as 04 and 05.. 07 had the advantage of pinning their ears back and going after the QB




Bottom line, we need a couple of guys to get to the QB.. I've yet to see someone explain why targeting players and moving up is a bad idea.

Actually, I think you've SEEN several someones explain why moving up might not be the best strategy. You've simply rejected those explanations and there's nothing wrong with that. It is kind of irksome for you to say that you haven't "seen" those explanations. Kinda makes the effort not seem worth the time.
 
Actually, I think you've SEEN several someones explain why moving up might not be the best strategy. You've simply rejected those explanations and there's nothing wrong with that. It is kind of irksome for you to say that you haven't "seen" those explanations. Kinda makes the effort not seem worth the time.

I've read every post in both threads were the topic is being discussed. Of all things my questions on who would U rather have or do we use the bpa method after Brady leaves, still has not been answered by u. Yet u ask me a question and I respond with my pov.

Regarding others explanations on why it isn't a smart move, I've read comments that the 07 offense was the issue, another year with what we have is good, we need to stop the run 1st.. History tells us moving up is bad


Problem with these replies they hold no substance. I get these responses from people who post all day saying history says trading up is not good, where's the facts? Saying we need to stop the run 1st doesn't answer the question, in a passing league, do u stop the run 1st or pass. Never mind I said, numerous times, we need a combination of OLB and de (another point missed in my multiple posts), so I agree we need both

I love the yahoos who want fitzy in these madden type trades. Yet i say we need a pass rusher and i get these replies from people who r looking to just increase their post count (yes i believe people here do that)

Notice how the past 4 SB champs all could get after the qb. And b4 that we won 3 sb's with a defense that pushed the pocket. I'm just pointing out something so obvious, I am shocked how many others are on the other side of the debate
 
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Lets say it's Ty Warren, Wilfork and Wilkerson, does that do it???

Personally I would not see a big increase in sacks with that combo.
Am figuring Warren is not quite what he was years ago, read on here that Wilkerson is similar to Ty Warren, not known for generating a pass rush.

I want to add speed. It's killed us in the recent past.
Draft Speed (Bowers?) and run defense(Wilkerson?).

I like speed too. But BB's defense has been about disruption and confusion.. Certainly speed creates disruption but so do strength and power which also lead to penetration into the backfield, which eventually gives the Lb's free reign to roam,blitz,stunt and basically creat havoc.

I agree I'd like to see a scenario which involves a burner like Miller/Quinn,Kerrigan,Bowers and a big run stopping DE/DT who can push the pocket. Heyward,Wilkerson,Jenkins and Ellis come to mind.
 
Lets say it's Ty Warren, Wilfork and Wilkerson, does that do it???

Personally I would not see a big increase in sacks with that combo.
Am figuring Warren is not quite what he was years ago, read on here that Wilkerson is similar to Ty Warren, not known for generating a pass rush.

I want to add speed. It's killed us in the recent past.
Draft Speed (Bowers?) and run defense(Wilkerson?).
Some people here are saying Muhammad Wilkerson's ceiling is Ty Warren - which is not a bad thing at all. Still, there's one cantankerous poster who claims Wilkerson brings a blend of Warren and Mike Wright to the table, based on watching him in a couple games (both with an impact on the MAC championship, so they weren't throw away games). I'll give you one guess who that curmudgeon might be.

Here's a more professional perspective, if written to smooze connections in the industry a bit - it's worth it to click on the author's name and read his bio.
Breaking down Muhammad Wilkerson and Phil Taylor
Because of his power and explosiveness, he is best at attacking; when he comes hard he can be very difficult to block or contain. He does get penetration and is disruptive. He plays with a good motor and does a good job in pursuit.

As a pass rusher, he is very raw; he gets his production on natural talent. He lacks good hand use and isn’t good at putting moves together but I feel with NFL coaching he will only get better. One thing that was obvious on tape was when Temple needed a play to be made, Wilkerson made it!

Overall, this is a very interesting prospect. As I said above he is very raw but that’s what makes him so interesting. He is going to need time and coaching but once he gets it down this player will be a defensive force in the NFL. The sky is the limit with this player and I’m not sure he even knows how good he can be
 
Not on my TV, Wright was splitting double-teams and drawing the heat inside. It may not have been coincidence when Cunningham faded down the stretch, I'd love to see the coach's scoring on QB pressure and hits for each game to see if Wright's injury coincides with the drop-off late in the season.

it took me some time but i looked it up on ESPN's boxscore for each game and the pats had 36 QB hits the first 10 games of the season just over 3 per game and the last 6 games ( with out Wright ) the pats had 29 QB hits just under 5 per game... but the Defense as a whole was playing better the last 6 games with Brady blowing out all most every team they faced

Mike Wright was leading the team in QB hits befor he got hurt Banta-Cain end it up leading the team with 13 QB hits Ninkovich and Wright each had 9
 
it took me some time but i looked it up on ESPN's boxscore for each game and the pats had 36 QB hits the first 10 games of the season just over 3 per game and the last 6 games ( with out Wright ) the pats had 29 QB hits just under 5 per game... but the Defense as a whole was playing better the last 6 games with Brady blowing out all most every team they faced

Mike Wright was leading the team in QB hits befor he got hurt Banta-Cain end it up leading the team with 13 QB hits Ninkovich and Wright each had 9
Thank you, do we know if this was ESPN analysts scoring the game or if this was derived from the NE media release they do after the season with the coach's scoring? For now it clearly shows Wright having an impact, the question was whether TBC was drawing the heat outside to help him?
 
Some people here are saying Muhammad Wilkerson's ceiling is Ty Warren - which is not a bad thing at all. Still, there's one cantankerous poster who claims Wilkerson brings a blend of Warren and Mike Wright to the table, based on watching him in a couple games (both with an impact on the MAC championship, so they weren't throw away games). I'll give you one guess who that curmudgeon might be.

Here's a more professional perspective, if written to smooze connections in the industry a bit - it's worth it to click on the author's name and read his bio.
Breaking down Muhammad Wilkerson and Phil Taylor


NFLN was talking about Wilkerson last night and a lot of the people feel he plays high, takes a lot of plays off and wasn't an impact player in the MAC. I personally never saw him play but when a panel of coaches, scouts and ex-players mentioned his lack of "big play", I felt I should mention this compared to what someone previously said "Wilkerson makes big plays"
 
Thank you, do we know if this was ESPN analysts scoring the game or if this was derived from the NE media release they do after the season with the coach's scoring? For now it clearly shows Wright having an impact, the question was whether TBC was drawing the heat outside to help him?

I'd be interested in how the stats were composed.. But it sounds like Wright wasn't missed..
Getting the same amt of QB hits in half the time without Wright..
Sounds strange..
 
NFLN was talking about Wilkerson last night and a lot of the people feel he plays high, takes a lot of plays off and wasn't an impact player in the MAC. I personally never saw him play but when a panel of coaches, scouts and ex-players mentioned his lack of "big play", I felt I should mention this compared to what someone previously said "Wilkerson makes big plays"
Gabriel has a need to smooze a little in his article, and the NFLN guys do the same. There have been reports on certain players being hyped by the likes of Kiper as a result of his access to an agent, certainly Mayock (Jay Cutler) has gone overboard on occasion, and if Casserly was part of the panel I'd find myself needing a low sodium diet plan afterwards. I take most late write-ups this time of the draft process with huge amounts of skepticism, in this case I've seen Wilkerson play, my lying eyes like the kid.
 
Regarding others explanations on why it isn't a smart move, I've read comments that the 07 offense was the issue, another year with what we have is good, we need to stop the run 1st.. History tells us moving up is bad


Problem with these replies they hold no substance. I get these responses from people who post all day saying history says trading up is not good, where's the facts?

Nobody is saying the Pats don't need a pass-rush. We all agree they need a pass-rush. The question is, how do you get those players? And history shows that the absolute worst strategy you can employ is trading multiple high picks for an unproven draft prospect. Ask Jacksonville how trading four picks to Baltimore to get up to the #8 slot to draft Derrick Harvey worked out for them. In the last ten years there have been 12 defensive ends taken in the top 10; six of them have been outright busts, and by that I mean guys who literally contributed nothing at all. We're talking about names like Harvey, Derrick Morgan, Vernon Gholston, Jamaal Anderson, and Jamaal Reynolds. If you want to go beyond the top 10, you can add Aaron Maybin, Michael Haynes, Jerome McDougle, David Pollack, Jarvis Moss, Erasmus James, Robert Ayers, Kenechi Udeze, Lawrence Jackson, Jerry Hughes and a few others. Again, these aren't just the guys who underperformed, they're guys who gave you absolutely nothing.

Nothing hurts a team more than a high draft pick who is a zero contributor, because it's a double-or triple-whammy: not only are you spending the draft ammo, you're also spending big-time money, which you then can't spend on other needs. Then, also, if you miss on a high draft pick, you still have a hole on the roster and you have to spend another pick there next year.

So it's bad enough to reach for need when we're only talking about one pick. But trading multiple high picks is taking a huge risk. If you miss, it sets your team back years, because you not only have multiple holes on your roster, you're tying up money in the busted draft pick.

The Pats' draft strategy is the best because it recognizes that luck plays a huge role in draft success. The only way to beat luck is to increase the number of chances (and, conversely, minimize the damage of failed picks). The math on the draft clearly shows that the rate of lost value as you go down in the draft is a lot lower than the corresponding increase in the bust rate. In other words, you tend to get more value with multiple lower picks as opposed to one high pick.

The counter-argument is that, sure, that works if you're looking for depth, but the Pats need impact players on defense. But if you look at the premier pass-rushers in the league, yes, a lot of them came from high picks -- guys like Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney. But just as many were middle-round guys or undrafted guys. Look at Cameron Wake (udfa), Shaun Phillips (4th), Umeniyora and Tuck (second- and third-round, respectively), Charles Johnson (3rd round), Robert Mathis (5th) and Jared Allen (4th). Jerome Harrison and James Hall were undrafted free agents.

You're almost always better off sitting tight at your draft spot or even trading down a little, making your selection, and then praying that one of them turns out to be an effective pass-rusher. Do you want one shot at Kenechi Udeze in the first round, or three or four shots at Shaun Phillips in the fourth? The impatience to jump up and spend big resources on a celebrated pass-rush prospect comes purely from all the pre-draft hype, which is designed to make us all think that some of these guys are sure things. The reality is that nobody really knows how these guys will turn out. Not even the coaches. The Patriots to their credit seem to realize how often even they screw things up, which is why they almost never bet a lot on one player. They will move up a little to get a guy they like (i.e. Gronkowski), but for the most part they play it conservatively and shoot for depth. So if you're advocating betting the farm on Von Miller, remember that he has about a 50% chance of turning into Vernon Gholston.
 
Nobody is saying the Pats don't need a pass-rush. We all agree they need a pass-rush. The question is, how do you get those players? And history shows that the absolute worst strategy you can employ is trading multiple high picks for an unproven draft prospect. Ask Jacksonville how trading four picks to Baltimore to get up to the #8 slot to draft Derrick Harvey worked out for them. In the last ten years there have been 12 defensive ends taken in the top 10; six of them have been outright busts, and by that I mean guys who literally contributed nothing at all.

Bad teams draft poorly, year in and year out, no matter the position. Read this article NFLDraft101: NFL Draft Slot Analysis: Do First Round Draft Slots Matter by Fran Duffy

You can see 50% is usually the normal go around in the 1st round.. But look at the names drafted in the top 10 compared to the positions we sit at.. So the percentage is typically the same but the type of impace you get is far greater when you move up..


Agree some of the picks have been horrible but most of th
Nothing hurts a team more than a high draft pick who is a zero contributor, because it's a double-or triple-whammy: not only are you spending the draft ammo, you're also spending big-time money, which you then can't spend on other needs.


Definitely would hurt but I feel confident in our scouting department. We've done well of late. I wouldn't want to lump us in the same boat with the Detriots and Cowboy of the world.

.

The counter-argument is that, sure, that works if you're looking for depth, but the Pats need impact players on defense. But if you look at the premier pass-rushers in the league, yes, a lot of them came from high picks -- guys like Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney. But just as many were middle-round guys or undrafted guys. Look at Cameron Wake (udfa), Shaun Phillips (4th), Umeniyora and Tuck (second- and third-round, respectively), Charles Johnson (3rd round), Robert Mathis (5th) and Jared Allen (4th). Jerome Harrison and James Hall were undrafted free agents.


ll the guys you mentioned took a couple of years to develop.. This is a key point I'm making.. Do you want to wait 4 years and take a greater chance of waiting around (btw Brady will be retired) or move up and get a player who makes an impact from Day 1?
 
The impatience to jump up and spend big resources on a celebrated pass-rush prospect comes purely from all the pre-draft hype, which is designed to make us all think that some of these guys are sure things. The reality is that nobody really knows how these guys will turn out. Not even the coaches. The Patriots to their credit seem to realize how often even they screw things up, which is why they almost never bet a lot on one player. They will move up a little to get a guy they like (i.e. Gronkowski), but for the most part they play it conservatively and shoot for depth. So if you're advocating betting the farm on Von Miller, remember that he has about a 50% chance of turning into Vernon Gholston.

Very well put. The draft is a crapshoot. You may have all the confidence in the world in your scouting department. But teams make mistakes drafting all the time. The best way to play the draft is to play the odds. By making more selections you have a better chances on 'hitting' on good players.

The other word to keep in mind is prospect. Thats what these players in the draft are, prospects who may pan out or who may bust. You read a glowing scouting report and you think, oh this is a sure thing can't miss player. But after you draft him what you get may turn out to be not what you expected at all. For example, guess who this glowing excerpt was about:

"Strengths: Terrific natural athlete who is very strong for his size…he should continue to add to his frame and has the ability to be an every down player…14 sacks as a senior against top notch competition, including 3 against Jake Long…explosive off the line of scrimmage…already has a variety of pass rush moves…a “natural” pass rusher…he is willing to support against the run…hard working player who keeps himself in top notch shape…"

That's right, that player is Vernon Gholston. And here's a piece about a draftnik who fell in love with Gholston's potential on draft day as well.

Why I Refuse To Give Up On Vernon Gholston | Bleacher Report

Of course the piece was written before Gholston was eventually cut by the Jets. So there you go, the cautionary tale. There is no such thing as a can't-miss-player. And pulling a 'Ditka' is still a bad draft strategy even if you land yourself a stud instead of a dud. How many superbowls did the Saints win with Rickey Williams? None. It's rather ironic they didn't win anything till both Ditka and Williams had been long gone.
 
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Bad teams draft poorly, year in and year out, no matter the position. Read this article NFLDraft101: NFL Draft Slot Analysis: Do First Round Draft Slots Matter by Fran Duffy

You can see 50% is usually the normal go around in the 1st round.. But look at the names drafted in the top 10 compared to the positions we sit at.. So the percentage is typically the same but the type of impace you get is far greater when you move up.

After the QB position, drafting starts with a philosophy and then being able to find players that fit that philosophy with as little projecting as possible.

And because projecting is involved and coaching changes are a way of life and money motivates people differently etc. etc. etc, drafting can never be an exact science.
 
This was the post of yours that I last responded to:

Thi is why stats make me laugh.. 07 defense wasn't as nearly as good as 04 and 05.. 07 had the advantage of pinning their ears back and going after the QB

Bottom line, we need a couple of guys to get to the QB.. I've yet to see someone explain why targeting players and moving up is a bad idea.

Perhaps I should have simply referred you to comment #55 in this thread.

I've read every post in both threads were the topic is being discussed. Of all things my questions on who would U rather have ....

"Rather have" compared to who? I think most people here have gotten pretty sick of me posting over and over and over again that I'd prefer one of Heyward, Watt, Wilkerson or Jordan for 34 RDE as our first priority and my belief that at least one of those is likely to fall to us at #17. Perhaps you've been one of the lucky ones who've missed all those posts.

..... or do we use the bpa method after Brady leaves, still has not been answered by u. Yet u ask me a question and I respond with my pov.

Correct. I have not responded to this question - mainly because I don't understand it.

Regarding others explanations on why it isn't a smart move, I've read comments that the 07 offense was the issue, another year with what we have is good, we need to stop the run 1st.. History tells us moving up is bad

Problem with these replies they hold no substance. I get these responses from people who post all day saying history says trading up is not good, where's the facts? Saying we need to stop the run 1st doesn't answer the question, in a passing league, do u stop the run 1st or pass. Never mind I said, numerous times, we need a combination of OLB and de (another point missed in my multiple posts), so I agree we need both

Actually, I've posted an opinion on this a few times, though probably not in these two most recent "pass-rusher" threads. The NFL may be a "passing league", but the Pats don't play all other 31 teams in the NFL every season. They play a 13-team subset. For the past 2-3 years that subset has included about 8 games against the top ten RUNNING teams in the league with four games against teams in our own division, MIA and the JETS, who run that ball just about as much as they pass. Seems to me a wise strategy to configure your roster and otherwise prepare to handle the offenses you WILL face in order to get to the playoffs rather than for the other teams in the league who you WON'T face if you don't get TO the playoffs.

In this situation, yes, you DO work to stop the run first. And that's really where the defense - specifically the D-line - failed against the JETS offense. If our D-line had been able to stop their ground game on its own without requiring so much extra help from LBs and safeties, we'd have been able to put the entire ballgame on Sanchez's shoulders - and THAT we could have beaten. But we couldn't stop their ground game and make their offense "Sanchez-only" and they beat us (and, yes, offensive and special teams errors ALSO made a huge difference in that result).

I love the yahoos who want fitzy in these madden type trades. Yet i say we need a pass rusher and i get these replies from people who r looking to just increase their post count (yes i believe people here do that)

?

Notice how the past 4 SB champs all could get after the qb.

During the 2009 regular season, the Saints had about the same number of sacks and pressures as the Pats did in 2010. Their D-line was a bit better against the run, however. The didn't really demonstrate that they could "get after the QB" until DC Gregg Williams elected to bring the house on nearly every play in their playoff games against ancient and immobile Kurt Warner and Bret Favre. Yet they had only one post-season sack.

And b4 that we won 3 sb's with a defense that pushed the pocket.

Those D-lines were also much better against the run than our 2010 D-line was. IOW, there appears there may be valid alternative explanation for our 2010 defensive failures beyond the assumption that it failed because we had no elite pass-rusher.

I'm just pointing out something so obvious, I am shocked how many others are on the other side of the debate

So, what is it that's so obvious?
 
All the guys you mentioned took a couple of years to develop.. This is a key point I'm making.. Do you want to wait 4 years and take a greater chance of waiting around (btw Brady will be retired) or move up and get a player who makes an impact from Day 1?

That doesn't make any sense. You'd rather have Jerome McDougle right away instead of Justin Tuck two years from now? The whole point is that it's a crapshoot no matter what you do. You don't really increase the odds by moving up, at least not to the point where it's worth the risk. Look at any draft and you'll see that there are always more impact guys outside the top 10 than in it. Take 2006: there was one good pass-rusher in the top 10, Mario Williams. But two of the best guys were in the 4th round -- Elvis Dumervil and Ray Edwards. Dumervil is a 20-sack guy. The Texans had to pay Williams $54 million. Fourth-rounders get about $3 million over four years. Just look at the guys who got picked in the fourth round that year: Jahri Evans, Leon Washington, Gostkowski, Domata Peko, Stephen Tulloch, Barry Cofield, Willie Colon. Getting any of those guys for $3 million is worth far more to your team than getting Mario Williams for $50 million.

Even with a rookie pay scale, it's still a crappy deal to spend multiple picks on an unproven pass-rusher. No matter how you slice it, it's dumb to spend $15 million on one pick with a 50% bust rate instead of spending $8 million total on TWO picks with 30% bust rates each, which is about what your odds would be on two second-rounders. You choose the first option and you still have less of a chance of succeeding overall, while you're paying twice as much.

If Von Miller really was guaranteed to be Demarcus Ware, he'd obviously be worth multiple picks, but history shows over and over again that you're better off taking a bunch of Brooks Reeds and Cliff Matthewses and praying for good luck instead of betting the farm on one Von Miller.
 
Look at any draft and you'll see that there are always more impact guys outside the top 10 than in it. Take 2006: there was one good pass-rusher in the top 10, Mario Williams. But two of the best guys were in the 4th round -- Elvis Dumervil and Ray Edwards.

So you're saying that a pool of 300 players has more impact guys that a pool of 10 players? Brilliant observation there. How about percentage-wise, can you tell me what percentage of top 20 guys succeed as opposed to guys drafted outside the top 20? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing the answer might surprise you. The fact of the matter is that all draft prospects carry a risk of failure and pass rushers seem to carry a higher one than say OL or CBs. However, pass rushers also have a way of impacting a game more so than an OL or a CB. That's why teams sometimes draft them way to high - like Derrick Harvey, Michael Haynes, or Aaron Maybin.
 
So you're saying that a pool of 300 players has more impact guys that a pool of 10 players? Brilliant observation there. How about percentage-wise, can you tell me what percentage of top 20 guys succeed as opposed to guys drafted outside the top 20? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing the answer might surprise you. The fact of the matter is that all draft prospects carry a risk of failure and pass rushers seem to carry a higher one than say OL or CBs. However, pass rushers also have a way of impacting a game more so than an OL or a CB. That's why teams sometimes draft them way to high - like Derrick Harvey, Michael Haynes, or Aaron Maybin.

I can't tell you that, but I can tell you that that Massey-Thaler study showed pretty clearly that the odds only improve very slightly as you move up in the draft. The 6th pick in the draft, for instance, was only better than the 11th pick 52% of the time. So if you give up a second-rounder to move from 11 to 6, you're basically giving up 4 years of a relatively inexpensive player to improve your odds by 2%.
 
Very well put. The draft is a crapshoot. You may have all the confidence in the world in your scouting department. But teams make mistakes drafting all the time. The best way to play the draft is to play the odds. By making more selections you have a better chances on 'hitting' on good players.

That's right, that player is Vernon Gholston. And here's a piece about a draftnik who fell in love with Gholston's potential on draft day as well.

Why I Refuse To Give Up On Vernon Gholston | Bleacher Report

Of course the piece was written before Gholston was eventually cut by the Jets. So there you go, the cautionary tale. There is no such thing as a can't-miss-player. And pulling a 'Ditka' is still a bad draft strategy even if you land yourself a stud instead of a dud. How many superbowls did the Saints win with Rickey Williams? None. It's rather ironic they didn't win anything till both Ditka and Williams had been long gone.

There were plenty of people here who liked Gholston, but plenty more, like me, who questioned how this kid who never seemed to show up on game tapes, was suddenly skyrocketing up the draft boards. I went back to the 2008 draft day discussions and found out that a few of us were questioning Gholston, and nobody thought he ws a lock. Then of course came my now infamous meltdown at the end of the day, and the string of posting that followed in which I correctly stated that Mayo would be the only member of the draft class that would be any good, and my hatred of Slater, which has been justified over the years....

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...fficial-2008-nfl-draft-discussion-page71.html

Here we are three years later, and I'm still hoping for the Pats to draft a pass rusher. You all know what the definition of insanity is don't you.......
 
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There were plenty of people here who liked Gholston, but plenty more, like me, who questioned how this kid who never seemed to show up on game tapes, was suddenly skyrocketing up the draft boards. I went back to the 2008 draft day discussions and found out that a few of us were questioning Gholston, and nobody thought he ws a lock. Then of course came my now infamous meltdown at the end of the day, and the string of p[osting that followed in which I correctly stated that mayo would be the only member of the draft class that would be any good, and my hatred of Slater, which has been justified over the years....

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...fficial-2008-nfl-draft-discussion-page71.html

Here we are three years later, and I'm still hoping for the Pats to draft a pass rusher. You all know what the definition of insanity is don't you.......

Didn't you also pick Michael Crabtree for the Ryan Leaf bust award and say you'd "wet yourself" if the Pats in 2009 came away with a draft of Clint Sintim (with the 24th pick!), Macho Harris, CJ Spiller, and Nic Harris?
 
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