Elite Defense if no major injuries?

[Gymrat]

something I don't know about??????????? You arrogant snotty little punk. I was playing Division 1 basketball when you were not even the beginning of an idea in your daddy's mind. You think because you've spent a few months in a gym that YOU are now the "KNOWER OF THINGS" ? For your edification, I have been playing football, watching football, writing about football and been a die hard Patriots fans since 1961.I GO to the camps every year and I SEE the players up close. YOU log on here and start screaming in gibberish that YOU know Patriot players like Jones and Hightower are fat and out of shape. YOU are a NUTBAG.Maybe somebody will drop a 50 pound dumb bell on your head to make a matched set.

First off joke thank for the compliments. Seriously I'm not being funny those were compliments. First off I never said being at optimum muscle/fat ratios and optimum flexibility were the only key to being an NFL pro bowler. You have to have the talent to be a player first. Then every player should want to optimize his ability. If losing 15 lbs of fat and adding 10-15 lbs of muscle could take a player to the next level what the H#$L is wrong with that. Why would that insult you so much.Why would ANYBODY take such offense to that. Just saying a player can improve with some minor tweaks and I suddenly seemed to have called them fat losers. Is there anything wrong with hoping patriot players take the next step as elite players. This is a passing league also featuring qbs with wr speed and and all the elite lbs have plenty of speed. Maybe you're very old school where nobody thought about gaining 20 lbs of muscle while minimizing fat. And Matt Millen style lbs were coveted. But this is 2014 where bigger faster stronger more athletic prevail and PEDs are rampant. Ask any player if leaning out while adding muscle and power helped. Just cuz Gholston was a bust it means optimizing muscle and power while leaning out isn't an advantage? If you noticed I said you have to be an NFL talent first THEN adding muscle and losing fat maximizes your ability and gives you an edge over players who haven't.

Take 2 DE's of similar football ability. Both 6'4 with similar frame and ability. One player goes the extra mile with nutrition,training,and flexibility training to decrease fat while maximizing muscle/power and flexibility. He is 6'4 265 lbs with 6-7% body fat while his twin brother is 6'4 270 lbs at 10-12% body fat. The leaner dude is going to be much more powerful and explosive while being much quicker. Jones at 265 with 6-7% is at a whole new level than he is at 265-270 at 10-11%

Why did that anger you. Its true if you look around the NFL most of the elite passrushers and lbs look a Lil stronger more athletic than Jones mayo and hightower. It just means they have more potential which is a GOOD thing dude. Why did you get so offended like I put your wife/kids/religion down. Its just football its not religion dude.

 

[Gymrat]

BTW couple months in the gym I spent. Nobody gets a perfect bod in a couple months.

 

[strngplyr]

This may not be the right place to post this, but I was just watching the footage of Easley being drafted over again, and I noticed that he was called a defensive end. That probably means that when the draft card was filled out by one of the Pats front office guys, he was written in as a DE. Obviously versatility is important and plenty of our players line up all over the place, but does anyone think it's possible that BB envisions him as primarily an end rather than a tackle?

Caserio specifically said on the phone either "Defensive Tackle" or "Defensive Lineman", Goodell, or whoever wrote it on the card handed to Goodell, wrote/said "Defensive End", the Man who put in the call did not. There is video of Caserio making the call.

We can put that defensive end talk to rest, he's a DT with versatility.

 

[supafly]

Looking at Terrell Thomas as a DB....hmmmmm.

One thing is for sure, we can never have too much depth at the position, so I like the idea. Maybe HE is the kind of guy that would project much better to safety? I still think that Ryan sees a ton of reps at CB, even if he plays some safety this year, and/or is a depth position behind McCourty/Harmon. I just don't see Ryan permanently moving to safety full time.

For one thing, there's no way to properly judge what kind of player we really have for the future in Ryan and his CB skills (without giving him playing time), in terms of his progress from year one to year two, and that could be quite important considering that Arrington may be seeing his last year here + and Revis will likely be playing hardball in negotiations. For a guy who picked off 5 INTs last year, it would seem like quite a waste of a potential future CB talent, and I don't think Belichick is that stupid.

Terrell Thomas is a bit bigger, is physical, and has experience. His main knock of course has been the ACL injuries of '11 and '12, but he played almost 40 snaps per game last year on average. He very well could be over his poor stretch of luck in regards to the injuries. At the very worst he would provide depth. Another thought is that we could potentially give Arrington more reps at safety, while giving Thomas more of a slot role.

I guess I'm getting way ahead of myself, but I love to see good depth and competition

 

[pencilneckgeek]

To the OP, you don't get to assume perfect health. The team with no major injuries amongst its starters is a true rarity. I don't accept the on-paper premise. We have 4 DL with injury concerns, although I fully expect Easley to be recovered early in the year, due to his youth and experience rehabbing an ACL.

Smith has had enough time and the Pats were satisfied enough with his rehab progress to go get him, but I am concerned about the health of Wilfork and Kelly. It is unlikely that either will be close to 100% in Week 1. For all the talent we've added, only Siliga can play NT effectively. The DLmen we added (Smith, Armstead, Easley) are smaller, like Jones and Vellano. Until we get an effective Vince or Kelly back, we're going to need to load-up to stop the run and reduce the effectiveness of our pass defense. That will look a lot like last year. Revis and Browner won't make a ton of difference in this respect. When we got beat in play action last year, it was TEs and RBs who got separation on our run stoppers, not the outside WRs. When we went small at DT, we got run over on more than a couple drives. Maybe Siliga improves his endurance this off-season and can help weather the storm until our vet DTs are back, or maybe one or both come back when they are at 90%, but if they do, it might be a long while before they regain their full effectiveness. Playing NT is not generally a recommended rehab protocol.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Hightower needs to play at 255 at the most....Every elite 4-3 lb is 235-250. There r none playing at 270. Hightower must gain a couple steps if he is 2 take his game to the next level and at least honorable mention when listing the best lbs.
Jones should add 10-15 lbs of muscle and maybe even lean out by 10 lbs. He is almost there as an elite rusher. Half step quicker n a little stronger I think shows up in his game. He is good,but shut down way to often. He works hard with his brother who knows the advantage of being as strong as u can at your most productive weight ratio.
Collins is plenty lean n quick,he just needs 10-12 lbs of muscle. He is explosive,athletic n powerful 4 his weight already. A little more muscle n he could hit double digit sacks from his old spot. Not many teams would stop him on a blitz.
This may seem a stretch but the r young growing athletes. Losing 10-15pounds of bodyfat and adding 10 lbs of muscle isn't out of question or time consuming and is amazing how much stronger and more effective small tweaks in nutrition/training makes. i seen many non athletes training for first time add 10-15 lbs of muscle in well under a year so its very easy for young athletes who r still growing.
...
Even a mere 15\16 lbs of fat slows you down CONSIDERABLY. Be it carried in the belly or distributed evenly giving muscles a smoother less defined appearance. Leaning out and adding SOME muscle IS an undeniable advantage for that player. More quickness more power meaning more explosiveness Period. Why do you think players use PEDs.
...
If pot bellied couch potatoes can start nutrition/diet,training and tae kwan do to become stronger,quicker and more flexible then there's improvement within pro athlete's as well. Couple yrs ago I wasn't going to the gym for a good while and ate whatever I wanted and gained almost 20 lbs. I felt slow when I played sports or did any running and thought it was normal as I hit my 30s. I mean I blamed some of it on being a little out of shape. But by the average Americans standard I was still in pretty good shape. So I thought losing quickness was partially due to getting out of shape but Noway could it account for all of feeling slow and losing speed and quickness. When I got back in shape lifting ant eating better I felt 23 again and shocked myself on how much faster I was again and how easy it was to run. I just thought wow only if everybody could feel this difference. I had no idea carrying 15-20 lbs of fat could do that. And I now understood at the time what the nutritionist I saw was talking about that so many athletes don't realize how good they could really be. It comes down to losing excess fat and adding enough muscle for power without to much to slow you down.

[/QUOTE]
Ok, Gymrodent (thanks, Joker ), you've been spewing like a born-again CrossFitter on a half-dozen threads, and it's getting old. Start a new thread if you want to compare training philosophies, and keep it in one place. Better still, do it over at T-Nation, where folks who have run D1 weight rooms can provide a proper response and educate your mouse brain. I will try this once here. After that, I will return to discussing football here and quietly train for the Zombie Apocalypse in my gym.

There's a world of difference between training an elite athlete and turning a coach potato into a functioning human animal, and there's much more to consider than strength-to-weight ratio in training an NFL football player. The room for improvement in somebody like Jones is remarkably thin. A body-building protocol to put mass on his legs (the area where he feels he needs to improve his strength) has a decent chance of slowing him down at the same time that it adds strength to his bull rush. He will train for explosiveness and strength, which will probably put a little weight on him, but not if he worries about trimming his negligible fat. The margins are too thin at that level of training to be doing two things at once, especially when they are oppositional (adding one kind of weight here and losing another elsewhere). Chandler knows more about training than you can ever expect to, and he's working with folks who know far more than him. Your incessant opining about what he needs to do in the gym in the off-season to dominate on game day is worse than the folks who never played football guessing about whose assignment as blown and assigning blame definitively in the postgame threads.

Wrt Hightower, he might benefit from a leaner physique, but he might not. If BB wants him to be able to play 3-4 OLB and stand-up a OT at the point-of-attack or run blitz and knock a pulling guard on his ass, that extra mass is useful. Football is much more about leverage and momentum than raw strength. Speed is great both in it's own right because it provides momentum. However, in small spaces especially against the run, size can be an asset, because it makes you harder to move. I'm sure the team will set weight goals for him. He's enough of a pro to hit them. If he shows-up at 270, you can assume that the team likes him that size, and I'm happy to appeal to the authority of Coaches Belichick and Harold Nash on that point.

Lastly, unlike body builders, football players have use for intramuscular fat. If they get lean and shredded, they lose some of their glycogen storage capacity. That muscular glycogen is a primary source of energy for the short, intense efforts that characterize a football play. Furthermore, there is evidence that moderate levels of fat provide some injury protection, likely by providing energy reserves through the demands of training, practice, and games and thereby reducing overall stress on the body. If you lean-out too much or too fast, it can effect hormone levels or performance and open a player up to injury. Everybody is a little different, and I'm not in the training room working with these guys on a daily basis, so I'm going to reserve judgment on what they each need to do. You should take a slice of humble pie and learn to do the same.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

I bet kelly doesn't even make the team

I can see him being the sacrificial vet who is let go in favor of a less talented youngster who the coaching staff views as being more likely to get and stay on the field. We won't have a clue, however, until we see him in TC.

 

[AzorianPats]

BTW couple months in the gym I spent. Nobody gets a perfect bod in a couple months.

Ohh blow it out ur ass!!!!

Everything about your post screams like a brain washed annoying cross fitter.

 

[Kontradiction]

Ohh blow it out ur ass!!!!

Everything about your post screams like a brain washed annoying cross fitter.

I actually bet Gymrat is a fatty. Probably a fatty that just joined Crossfit.

 

[captain stone]

Looking at Terrell Thomas as a DB....hmmmmm.

One thing is for sure, we can never have too much depth at the position, so I like the idea. Maybe HE is the kind of guy that would project much better to safety? I still think that Ryan sees a ton of reps at CB, even if he plays some safety this year, and/or is a depth position behind McCourty/Harmon. I just don't see Ryan permanently moving to safety full time.

For one thing, there's no way to properly judge what kind of player we really have for the future in Ryan and his CB skills (without giving him playing time), in terms of his progress from year one to year two, and that could be quite important considering that Arrington may be seeing his last year here + and Revis will likely be playing hardball in negotiations. For a guy who picked off 5 INTs last year, it would seem like quite a waste of a potential future CB talent, and I don't think Belichick is that stupid.

Terrell Thomas is a bit bigger, is physical, and has experience. His main knock of course has been the ACL injuries of '11 and '12, but he played almost 40 snaps per game last year on average. He very well could be over his poor stretch of luck in regards to the injuries. At the very worst he would provide depth. Another thought is that we could potentially give Arrington more reps at safety, while giving Thomas more of a slot role.

I guess I'm getting way ahead of myself, but I love to see good depth and competition

I'm hoping to see one or more of these vet visitors on both sides of the ball signed after June 1st.

 

[Gymrat]

Glycogen storage is only a prob at rediculously low body fat. That's y I mention a target bf of like 6-8%. Structural fat is important for that. And its safe at levels as low as 6%. Of course I'm not just talking bout bodybuilding muscle. Of course there is particular training to optimize flexibility and transfer muscle to the field. Just cuz an athlete is farther along than a couch potato doesn't mean there's not vast improvement in everybody athletes included. Did you know jerry rice was listed at 200 lbs most of his career (was 205 in oakland) but played at 188-190 for most part. He was already in great shape yet dropped 10-12 lbs of body fat to get faster when he had probs separating on longer intermediate routes and deep routes early on in his career. I think it worked don't you. A certain DT was dissapointing his first several seasons. He saw a renowned nutritionist/trainer costing $200hr( I saw same one in college twice probably much more now) and has since made a pro bowl or 2. I wanted the pats to sign him both times he was fa. I thought there was a good chance of a breakout when I heard.

Look im not trying to brag but you really do need to feel the difference in ease of movement when you add muscle/lose fat and get in your personal best shape. I know adding to much muscle can slow u down as well and actually less powerful/explosive. Jamal Lewis was far easier to tackle at 255lbs than 231. His power didn't hit with nearly the force when he got slow. So yeah I know there is always a fine line. I do commend your intelligence to debate this scientifically than get your pants wadded thinking somebody attacked/insulted your hometown player like im talking bout their wife.

A fatty? Like I would ever stoop to cross fit LOL

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm glad that you don't, then. People that do Crossfit are absolutely unbearable to be around. Give me a treadmill, a stationary bike, and free weights and I'm golden. Crossfit is for people that don't know how to work out and/or have a history of a couch potato lifestyle so they need guidance. That pic also looks like it was taken in the late 90's.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

A fatty? Like I would ever stoop to crossView attachment 6585 fitView attachment 6585 LOL

So who's the other guy cut off in the photo?

 

[Gymrat]

OK everybody glad you noticed and responded. First off I was 158lbs in the late 90's( when I got my start to getting buffed). Secondly you can see enough to know that's not a guy. I'm actually slightly shy and not a shirtless showoff. The chic that talked me into that pic with her got engaged a couple months later and didn't want her fiance constantly questioning her about me and asked me to cut her out. But all this attention is great. LOL That's y I working out and nutrition is so awesome. I dunno what I would do if people weren't always looking,commenting,and asking how to get like that and girls staring. Especially hot girls when her average Joe bf is right there. Its just so awesome fun! Come on you have to admit I look good. Awesome even.

On a more serious patriot note. After car accident I took my time getting back to the gym on a full time basis. I gained nearly 20lbs of fat and lost 15-20 lbs of muscle. I was still in pretty good shape by average American standards. But when I decided to get back in shape it felt so good and was amazing how strong I felt again and how easy it was to run and maneuver playing football or anything. Don't we all want to see hightower and Jones get faster while stronger to and dominate like we all want.

 

[varjao]

If Wilfork/Mayo/Kelly return healthy, plus the addition of Revis/Browner/Easley.... The Pats have added a lot more than any of those teams.

That's the big if I'm talking about, I'm not optimistic at all that Vince will be effective, Mayo had a injury that takes time to recover and have an impact on his camp for next season because a LB needs to do bench press and develop strength on deltoid an chest and he's got a torn pectoral, Kelly was a nice surprise last season, as far as I know he didn't have surgery but going into the 30's motivation plays a big factor, I don't know what to expect, a player can decline fast from one year to the other.

So if anything goes wrong with these guys it will offset the addition of the other 3 you mentioned, and I'm afraid there's a big chance of this to happen. Keeping Wilfork was a wrong move in my opinion. I don't want him there playing at 60% of his capabilities , it will become a liability.

 

[Gymrat]

So who's the other guy cut off in the photo?

I know dude, at one point back in highschool I was envious of of this 2

 

[Kontradiction]

OK everybody glad you noticed and responded. First off I was 158lbs in the late 90's( when I got my start to getting buffed). Secondly you can see enough to know that's not a guy. I'm actually slightly shy and not a shirtless showoff. The chic that talked me into that pic with her got engaged a couple months later and didn't want her fiance constantly questioning her about me and asked me to cut her out. But all this attention is great. LOL That's y I working out and nutrition is so awesome. I dunno what I would do if people weren't always looking,commenting,and asking how to get like that and girls staring. Especially hot girls when her average Joe bf is right there. Its just so awesome fun! Come on you have to admit I look good. Awesome even.

On a more serious patriot note. After car accident I took my time getting back to the gym on a full time basis. I gained nearly 20lbs of fat and lost 15-20 lbs of muscle. I was still in pretty good shape by average American standards. But when I decided to get back in shape it felt so good and was amazing how strong I felt again and how easy it was to run and maneuver playing football or anything. Don't we all want to see hightower and Jones get faster while stronger to and dominate like we all want.

 

[Sicilian]

OK everybody glad you noticed and responded. First off I was 158lbs in the late 90's( when I got my start to getting buffed). Secondly you can see enough to know that's not a guy. I'm actually slightly shy and not a shirtless showoff. The chic that talked me into that pic with her got engaged a couple months later and didn't want her fiance constantly questioning her about me and asked me to cut her out. But all this attention is great. LOL That's y I working out and nutrition is so awesome. I dunno what I would do if people weren't always looking,commenting,and asking how to get like that and girls staring. Especially hot girls when her average Joe bf is right there. Its just so awesome fun! Come on you have to admit I look good. Awesome even.

On a more serious patriot note. After car accident I took my time getting back to the gym on a full time basis. I gained nearly 20lbs of fat and lost 15-20 lbs of muscle. I was still in pretty good shape by average American standards. But when I decided to get back in shape it felt so good and was amazing how strong I felt again and how easy it was to run and maneuver playing football or anything. Don't we all want to see hightower and Jones get faster while stronger to and dominate like we all want.

You're either a colossal troll, or you're literally my least favorite person to ever grace this board. Get over yourself, you narcissistic turd.

 

[Gymrat]

Then why were you commenting kontra Besides every male wants to look like this

 

[Kontradiction]

You're either a colossal troll, or you're literally my least favorite person to ever grace this board. Get over yourself, you narcissistic turd.

I think he's a troll. Good trolls usually make me laugh. That must mean that he's bad at what he does.