Dwayne Allen to the moon?

[brdmaverick]

You're correct that BB has tried to get 2 TE receiving threats. But it hasn't worked as well as you said. Most people would question you saying Graham/Watson as dual threats since Graham became one of the best blocking TEs the game has seen while here and didn't do a lot in the receiving game.

Most people have said it was only when BB got the Gronk/Hernandez duo that he truly got the 2 receiving TE threats he wanted. He got the Hybrid in Gronk and the almost pure receiver in Hernandez. With Bennett, it was duplicated, though they only played in 3 (?) games together..

2000 - Bjornson, Wiggins, Rutledge
2001 - Wiggins, Rutledge
2002- Fauria, Cleeland, Graham
2003 - Fauria, Graham
2004 - Fauria, Graham (Watson was IRed after 1 game)
2005 - Watson, Graham, Fauria
2006 - Watson, Graham, Thomas
2007 - Watson, Thomas (2 games), K. Brady
2008 - Watson, Thomas
2009 - Watson, Baker
2010 - Gronkowski, Hernandez, Crumpler
2011 - Gronkowski, Hernandez
2012 - Gronkowski, Hernandez, Fells, Hoomanawanui
2013 - Gronkowski, Hoomanawanui, Mulligan
2014 - Gronkowski, Tim Wright, Hoomanawanui
2015 - Gronkowski, Scott Chandler, Michael Williams, Asante Cleveland
2016 - Gronkowski, Bennett, Lengel
2017 - Gronkowski, Allen, Hollister, Bennett.

Right, I don't think I made an inference to how effective the project was, but only that the intent was to have two receiving TE's.

I think BB was hoping Graham/Watson would be the Gronk/Hernandez, it just never materialized.

While Graham's strength was blocking (from what I was told, again, don't pay much attention to that), he was definitely a red zone beast as well.

Helpful list though, 2013 was the clear outlier with no second receiving TE. As great as Hooman's catch at Miami was they were recently hurting bigtime after Gronk's injury.

 

[PatsDeb]

BTW, SFBs, I'm not on any high horse. I'm just pointing out that you don't know wtf you are talking about. Sorry if you don't like facts and reality. That's your issue.

Oh the irony! Ok DaB - you win. Duane Allen has been AWESOME! You've schooled me!

 

[long distance]

Its 19-0 every March and August . then “Pats lack talented players“ in September and “cut/trade these JAGs“ before October trade deadline despite all the glory Novembers, Decembers, Jans and Febs that took place under same system/leadership/roadmap. It's just uncanny..

Thankfully the trade deadline and salivating for “binkies“ that are “JAGs“ on other team's rosters is over (I plead guilty having a small wish for some DE depth).


The unknown is always something that we love in NFL. - M.Lombardi

 

[Bruins29]

I think all but one throw to him was catchable,

Regardless of what you, I, DaBruinz, Dwane Allen's Mom, and Santa Claus think, that is not correct. He has one drop on the season. There were maybe 2 more he "could" have come down with but they were not even considered drops.

All that matters at this point is what he brings to the table going forward. What he did for the past 9 games whether atrocious receiving or elite blocking is irrelevant.

 

[maineman209]

Interesting point of discussion, but I would still say 'no'. For almost the entirety of the BB era the Pats have made a point to try to get two tight ends that are receiving threats going all the way back to Fauria/Graham, Graham/Watson, Gronk/Hernandez, and Gronk/Bennett. Sure, they might have a third tight end be a blocking specialist like Alge Crumpler or Jed Weaver (I think that was his name), but historically they've liked two tight ends to be receiving threats.

Given that history and the fact that Allen showed some promise as a receiving threat in Indy, I'm guessing he was brought in to continue to show signs of life in the receiving game (signs that weren't shown until yesterday). Plus, the fact that Bennett comes in and gets more receptions in one game than Allen has had for all year is just further indication that they want that additional threat.

I don't think that BB has ever been a big fan of TEs who can catch but not block (same for WRs). So, while he may WANT that second TE receiving threat (who can also block well), he's not always going to find one.

Anyway, I think that because Allen was brought in as Bennett was on his way out the door, folks were expecting a sort of lesser version of Bennett from day one - a TE who can both block and catch passes (in the Pats system). I think it's more likely that BB saw a very good blocker who might - eventually - become a decent enough pass-catcher in the Pats offensive system, but could hold up well on the blocking side of things in the meantime. IOW, I kinda doubt that his expectations for Allen as a receiver were nearly as high as ours were.

I also think he's been looking for an additional blocking-receiving TE since the day Allen was signed, ending up with only young developmental prospect, Hollister - until Bennett dropped into his lap.

BTW - Crumpler wasn't at all a "blocking specialist" before he was signed by the Pats.

 

[maineman209]

Speaking of the dependable James Develin with his excellent Blocking. In regards to his catching ability even if he has an opening the size of the Red Sea after catching the rock: it would still probably take Develin until June to get there he's molasses slow after the catch.

Allen, nearly identical to Develin size-wise, isn't significantly faster. Bennett and Gronk are both faster than either Develin or Allen.

 

[patriot1136]

Total side question. How is D. Allen as a teammate? maybe he is a good leader and can even mentor a young guy like Hollister. All may not be lost with Allen.

 

[maineman209]

Oh the irony! Ok DaB - you win. Duane Allen has been AWESOME! You've schooled me!

Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you personally of this, but your retort DOES highlight an attitude among some posters that a player is either "awesome" or "he sucks" and there's no in-between. There's little or no acceptance of a guy who just does his job in his assigned role because, most of the time, posters don't really take the time to try to understand what a player's assigned role actually is, or stop to think that perhaps OUR expectations of a guy - based on his positional designation and/or his salary - are significantly different from the TEAM's expectations of the same guy. And there also seems to be little acknowledgement of the reality that a "better player" - meaning a guy that fulfills OUR expectations - may not actually be available to the Pats at the tie they need to make a decision.

 

[maineman209]

Total side question. How is D. Allen as a teammate? maybe he is a good leader and can even mentor a young guy like Hollister. All may not be lost with Allen.

Good point. I've always suspect that Crumpler was brought in for 2010 to provide mentoring for Gronk and Hernandez, as well as to provide excellent blocking support.

So, yeah, that could be part of Allen's role for this season. But I expect that BB also has a longer term view of what Allen may eventually bring to the table.

 

[brdmaverick]

BTW - Crumpler wasn't at all a "blocking specialist" before he was signed by the Pats.

Agreed, but he was definitely a blocking specialist at that point in his career with the Pats.

 

[PatsDeb]

Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you personally of this, but your retort DOES highlight an attitude among some posters that a player is either "awesome" or "he sucks" and there's no in-between. There's little or no acceptance of a guy who just does his job in his assigned role because, most of the time, posters don't really take the time to try to understand what a player's assigned role actually is, or stop to think that perhaps OUR expectations of a guy - based on his positional designation and/or his salary - are significantly different from the TEAM's expectations of the same guy. And there also seems to be little acknowledgement of the reality that a "better player" - meaning a guy that fulfills OUR expectations - may not actually be available to the Pats at the tie they need to make a decision.

I don't disagree with you. However, I am not a person who says AWESOME or SUCKS without thinking about it. I think that so far, Duane Allen has been a disappointment, or even a bust if you will. I feel I am not alone in this assessment (correct me if I am wrong, but until Sunday even Tom Brady had stopped looking Allen's way). But I was happy for the guy that he got that TD pass and hope that things are trending upward. I also noted the fact that his teammates, including the aforementioned Tom Brady, were really happy for him that he got the catch, indicating that he is a good teammate. I also wonder why, though, if all BB, JMcD and TB wanted from Allen was a blocker able to make a catch every (maybe) 10 games or so, they immediately picked up his injured predecessor and inserted him into the game with one practice under his belt, whereupon he caught three passes. I know others disagree with my assessment, and my opinion that most, if not all of the balls thrown Allen's way were "catchable." However, it makes me mad that because I disagree with some on whether Duane Allen is any good, or worth his contract, my intelligence is insulted I am told I don't know WTF is going on. I also disagree with that assessment, hence my "snarky" comment. It's okay. I've moved on to discussions about end zone celebrations.

 

[PatsDeb]

I don't think that BB has ever been a big fan of TEs who can catch but not block (same for WRs). So, while he may WANT that second TE receiving threat (who can also block well), he's not always going to find one.

Well there you go. I also think BB is not a big fan of TEs who can block but can't catch.

 

[Bruins29]

I also wonder why, though, if all BB, JMcD and TB wanted from Allen was a blocker able to make a catch every (maybe) 10 games or so, they immediately picked up his injured predecessor and inserted him into the game with one practice under his belt, whereupon he caught three passes. .

First, the world disagrees with you regarding which balls were catchable. It has nothing to do with opinions at this point. It is what is is. Let it go.

Second, MM is out, Hogan is down. We have DA who is injured, That leaves, Cooks, and Dorsett who is still somewhat raw. Slater is injured too. With all that going on I see signing Bennett (on the cheap) who can catch balls as a real strong need.

It had little to do with Allen especially at the cost they got him for.

 

[PatsDeb]

First, the world disagrees with you regarding which balls were catchable. It has nothing to do with opinions at this point. It is what is is. Let it go.

Second, MM is out, Hogan is down. We have DA who is injured, That leaves, Cooks, and Dorsett who is still somewhat raw. Slater is injured too. With all that going on I see signing Bennett (on the cheap) who can catch balls as a real strong need.

It had little to do with Allen especially at the cost they got him for.

Once again, we will have to agree to disagree, particularly your last sentence.

 

[Bruins29]

Once again, we will have to agree to disagree, particularly your last sentence.

You can disagree with all the football metrics you desire. You sounds more bitter about being proven wrong then more happy that Allens trending upwards...and the team is winning which is all that matters. Lets not even get into his blocking etc.

 

[NE-VT]

@PatsDeb I hope you don't mind me giving my 2 cents. I agree that people were quite rude with you. Even if I tend to agree with the football point they were making, they should not have treated you like that.

I think all but one throw to him was catchable, and he was not doing his job to be a pass catching tight end in this offense, particuluarly for the amount he's being paid. He also wasn't great at blocking in several games. Heck, Marty Bennett has 3 times as many catches as him after 8 snaps. I'm allowed to ***** about that if I want to, legitimately so. Just like you can ***** about other fans like me from your high (horse) armchair.

I would have responded with something like this:

1. I have a different memory of the number of catchable, or quasi catchable balls. Perhaps we can think of which particular plays they are on and re-watch it.

2. I would have pointed out that there can be multiple factors for lack of targets. Perhaps he is just not getting that open, and he is being used to manipulate coverage anyway.

3. On this one, I can only think of three plays that people pointed to where he missed blocks. I think three missed blocks is a reasonable rate for a TE, given his playing time.

However, it makes me mad that because I disagree with some on whether Duane Allen is any good, or worth his contract, my intelligence is insulted I am told I don't know WTF is going on. I also disagree with that assessment, hence my "snarky" comment.

This makes me mad as well. I think a much more appropriate response would have been like I did it above. I am sorry, in the empathetic sense, that people treated you like that.

(correct me if I am wrong, but until Sunday even Tom Brady had stopped looking Allen's way)

I don't recall Brady not looking his way when he was open. I recall him not being particularly open.

I know others disagree with my assessment, and my opinion that most, if not all of the balls thrown Allen's way were "catchable."

Thats why we do the re-watch the tape, and post clips of plays. You very well might be right, it is just hard to evaluate only on memory.

 

[brdmaverick]

I don't disagree with you. However, I am not a person who says AWESOME or SUCKS without thinking about it. I think that so far, Duane Allen has been a disappointment, or even a bust if you will. I feel I am not alone in this assessment (correct me if I am wrong, but until Sunday even Tom Brady had stopped looking Allen's way). But I was happy for the guy that he got that TD pass and hope that things are trending upward. I also noted the fact that his teammates, including the aforementioned Tom Brady, were really happy for him that he got the catch, indicating that he is a good teammate. I also wonder why, though, if all BB, JMcD and TB wanted from Allen was a blocker able to make a catch every (maybe) 10 games or so, they immediately picked up his injured predecessor and inserted him into the game with one practice under his belt, whereupon he caught three passes. I know others disagree with my assessment, and my opinion that most, if not all of the balls thrown Allen's way were "catchable." However, it makes me mad that because I disagree with some on whether Duane Allen is any good, or worth his contract, my intelligence is insulted I am told I don't know WTF is going on. I also disagree with that assessment, hence my "snarky" comment. It's okay. I've moved on to discussions about end zone celebrations.

Based on my recollection of most of the passes thrown his way were bad throws, but perhaps could still be deemed 'catchable'.

Anyways, moving past that I actually think you crafted a well-reasoned response.

Even though many on this thread are willing to classify Allen's season through ten games as a success, I don't think those same individuals should find a counter argument all that crazy for a guy who has only 1 catch to date.

Sure, maybe they are right that he is an above average blocker. Even if he's a B+ blocker I think it's safe to say he's been no better than a D in the passing game. While he may not have been brought in to be a 40 catch guy, I think it's still safe to say we expected more in this facet and this could be a potential reason why the offense has sputtered in the red zone.

Again, I think it's worthy of intelligent conversation and should not be belittled and immediately dismissed like you have.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Since you all decided to scheme and get MB back, Allen is 3 for 4 and 1TD.
That is 75% reception and a score for every 4 passes. You can't beat this!

 

[IllegalContact]

Well there you go. I also think BB is not a big fan of TEs who can block but can't catch.

He had an OT playing TE for a couple of years

 

[VegasGuy]

Regardless of what you, I, DaBruinz, Dwane Allen's Mom, and Santa Claus think, that is not correct. He has one drop on the season. There were maybe 2 more he "could" have come down with but they were not even considered drops.

All that matters at this point is what he brings to the table going forward. What he did for the past 9 games whether atrocious receiving or elite blocking is irrelevant.

Is that one official drop?

I swear there's been more than that.