Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Biffins]

The fact that there are even people running around trying to assess blame is bizarre.
In any other fan base the man would be canonized. Here his QB leaves, players opt out for covid, we have to deal with a season where the cap caught up, and after winning 3 sbs going to a 4th in the last 7 years, winning one just 2 years ago, coming off a 12-4 season, one losing season and this board is 24/7 rip belichick.
Remarkable but not surprising here.

You guys seemed fine tearing into Brady last year for his numbers after he had accomplished what he did over previous 5 years (3 SB wins, 4 visits to SB, NFL MVP) and you kicked him to the curb and lauding BB for the tough decision.

Well now BB’s being taken to task for his decision to kick out a local icon, and rightly so. Ballsy decision. And if it went right then BB gets lauded.

Suppose Newton worked out great here and we were 11-5 and heading into playoffs and Brady flopped and Bucs were 6-10. Would we call BB a genius? And how he had vision. Yes we would. Well guess what? The opposite has happened. So who gets the blame. It’s BB of course. You can’t have it both ways. “Genius” if it works and “He’s trying things” if it doesn’t. No. You get blamed for your stupid decisions.

 

[Ring 6]

You guys seemed fine tearing into Brady last year for his numbers after he had accomplished what he did over previous 5 years (3 SB wins, 4 visits to SB, NFL MVP) and you kicked him to the curb and lauding BB for the tough decision.

Well now BB’s being taken to task for his decision to kick out a local icon, and rightly so. Ballsy decision. And if it went right then BB gets lauded.

Suppose Newton worked out great here and we were 11-5 and heading into playoffs and Brady flopped and Bucs were 6-10. Would we call BB a genius? And how he had vision. Yes we would. Well guess what? The opposite has happened. So who gets the blame. It’s BB of course. You can’t have it both ways. “Genius” if it works and “He’s trying things” if it doesn’t. No. You get blamed for your stupid decisions.

You must have me confused with someone else.
I never trashed Brady and I never applauded his decision to leave the patriots

My point is why is it necessary to run around assigning blame?
If Brady had played out his career here and reached the point where the team was losing because of him the idiot brigade would be doing the same thing to him, and I’d be saying the same thing.

 

[TheRainMaker]

If Brady wins the Super Bowl (unlikely), the debate is OVER!

 

[Kdo5]

If Brady wins the Super Bowl (unlikely), the debate is OVER!

Debates already over. Only a segment Patriots fans think otherwise.

 

[Kdo5]

You guys seemed fine tearing into Brady last year for his numbers after he had accomplished what he did over previous 5 years (3 SB wins, 4 visits to SB, NFL MVP) and you kicked him to the curb and lauding BB for the tough decision.

Well now BB’s being taken to task for his decision to kick out a local icon, and rightly so. Ballsy decision. And if it went right then BB gets lauded.

Suppose Newton worked out great here and we were 11-5 and heading into playoffs and Brady flopped and Bucs were 6-10. Would we call BB a genius? And how he had vision. Yes we would. Well guess what? The opposite has happened. So who gets the blame. It’s BB of course. You can’t have it both ways. “Genius” if it works and “He’s trying things” if it doesn’t. No. You get blamed for your stupid decisions.

People who are excuse making for Belichick are the same people bemoaning others for making excuses for Tom last season.

 

[sb1]

If Brady wins the Super Bowl (unlikely), the debate is OVER!

The debate already is over. Great QB > Great Coach when it comes to credit for winning championships. Always. So gimme the great QB. Peyton Manning took Jim Caldwell who is not a good coach to a Super Bowl. Nuff said.

The other debate is whether Bill is a good coach at all. There’s no reason at all to think he isn’t. It makes no sense to not consider Bill’s career WITH Brady as well as without, as part of his coaching resume unless you’re cherry picking to fit the narrative you want to hear. But he’s not a miracle worker and I doubt even Vince Lombardi takes a roster like this to the playoffs. Players are more important than coaches because they actually play. Always. A team can win with a subpar coach but not with a bad roster. Great coaches though will always maximize what they have and Bill has done that this year and throughout his career. Swap Jim Caldwell for Belichick and I doubt this 2020 team wins 2 games.

GM Bill needs to give Coach Bill some help and then it will help us look at him without Brady.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Debates already over. Only a segment Patriots fans think otherwise.

I've been convinced since 2001 that Brady was more important than BB as he was looking like Coach Red in "The Waterboy" when Coach Klein countered his own stolen playbook before Brady took over.

But if he wins without BB, there's no argument.

 

[Ring 6]

People who are excuse making for Belichick are the same people bemoaning others for making excuses for Tom last season.

Neither need excuses made for them. They are both GOATS

 

[sb1]

Neither need excuses made for them. They are both GOATS

This season permanently ended the system QB argument. That’s nice to know.

 

[Ring 6]

The debate already is over. Great QB > Great Coach when it comes to credit for winning championships. Always. Peyton Manning took Jim Caldwell who is not a good coach to a Super Bowl. Nuff said.
Eli Manning

Eli Manning
The shell of Peyton Manning
Brad Johnson
Trent Dilfer
Nick Foles
Joe Flacco
Doug Williams
Phil Simms
Jim McMahon
Jeff Hostetler
Hell Terry bradshaw 4 times.

what is the stat? Is it no QB to lead the league in passing has ever won a SB? (Or is it mvp?). If it were all about the qb how can that be?

 

[Ring 6]

This season permanently ended the system QB argument. That’s nice to know.

There was never a system QB argument, except by morons.

 

[sb1]

Eli Manning
The shell of Peyton Manning
Brad Johnson
Trent Dilfer
Nick Foles
Joe Flacco
Doug Williams
Phil Simms
Jim McMahon
Jeff Hostetler
Hell Terry bradshaw 4 times.

what is the stat? I’d it no QB to lead the league in passing has ever won a SB? (Or is it mvp?). If it were all about the qb how can that be?

Not sure I follow. I said Great QB > Great Coach. If I had a choice to pick one or the other I’m going with the great QB.

Great coach with an awful QB - see 2020 NE Patriots.

Mediocre coach with a great QB - see 2009 Colts who were AFC Champions. Or 2013 Broncos - same. Or 2010 Packers - SB champions. Or the Norv Turner Chargers who were a very good team. Or the 2002 Raiders. It‘s been proven again and again. Or - 2020 Bucs, not that I think Arians is as bad as people say he is. Even Mike Shanahan - he gave us fits over the years but was he really a great coach? He had Elway and won two SBs with him but what else has he done?

 

[sb1]

There was never a system QB argument, except by morons.

Well the morons at least have to zip it now.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Phil Jackson is an all-time great coach, and his strength was taking uber talented teams with egos and keeping them grounded and focused on the greater good.

Larry Brown is an all-time great coach who specialized in building and coaching up teams who had a perceived lack of talent.

We know Belichick can do what Jackson did and win with talent. Maybe that’s just what he’s great at, and that’s fine. I’d rather have a guy who can win six championships in 20 years by maximizing a loaded team than a guy who will take your 5 win team and get them to 9 wins and a one and done.

 

[ralmat55]

Bill’s job is and has been a much tougher job than Tom’s. Tom has to get one player ready to play. Bill has had to get 46 or now 48 players ready to compete every game. When Tom was resting with his family and jumping off cliffs in Central America, Bill was sclepping around the country watching draft prospects do 3 cone drills.

Why this whole discussion is so silly, is that everyone is trying to compare apples to oranges and trying to compare today to 5, 10 or 20 years ago.

All of us only have so much within us. When Tommy was learning to add and subtract, Bill was already matching wits with Walsh and Gibbs. There’s precedent for QBs in their early 40s to still be playing nearly as well as the did 5 years before (Moon and Farve). There is no precedent for a HC in their late 60s to be coaching as well as they did in their early 60s or before. Much less be as good of a team builder and de facto D coordinator as well.

What they are today does not tell us what their comparative worth was in 2001, 2009 or 2018. They both were the GOATS if you ask me, and I’m incredibly appreciative of the smiles and great Sundays they gave me for over 20 years.

 

[Tony2046]

Why is the call of removing BB as GM batshit crazy? He’a drafted horribly for years. And whiffed on trades repeatedly lately with this Sanu disaster being the latest. The team composition sucks today (including the decision to let Brady walk) because we made some horrible front office decisions.

Not even remotely fair.

 

[Ring 6]

Not sure I follow. I said Great QB > Great Coach. If I had a choice to pick one or the other I’m going with the great QB.

Great coach with an awful QB - see 2020 NE Patriots.

Mediocre coach with a great QB - see 2009 Colts who were AFC Champions. Or 2013 Broncos - same. Or 2010 Packers - SB champions. Or the Norv Turner Chargers who were a very good team. Or the 2002 Raiders. It‘s been proven again and again. Or - 2020 Bucs, not that I think Arians is as bad as people say he is. Even Mike Shanahan - he gave us fits over the years but was he really a great coach? He had Elway and won two SBs with him but what else has he done?

It takes both and more. You are picking out QBs who won once or twice, or even never and saying it’s all about the QB. Then why didn’t those QBs win every year? Why did the long list of QBs I posted win, if it’s all about the QB?
It’s ridiculous to think that championships are won by one player.

 

[Tony2046]

Are you saying BB’s 135 games as HC without Brady is insufficient to judge him? How many would be sufficient?

BB rebuilt the Browns into a playoff team. We all know what happened next.

He did it then, he did it in 2000 and he'll do it again.

 

[Tony2046]

It's already getting solved. Look at the stats.

It's not getting solved in one season. That would be foolish.

 

[Tony2046]

Debates already over. Only a segment Patriots fans think otherwise.

It's not.