Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Kdo5]

I think this is way off. BB spent a lot on a 2nd for Sanu and a 1st for NKeal Harry. A high pick for Dobson and Sony. It's just been that the opinions from his OC are terrible and so those high draft choices haven't panned out.... he also spent major $ on Thuney, Mason, Cannon and a 1st on Wynn...

.

Check out Breer’s latest article. The N’Keal Harry pick came from Belichick trusting his college coach (who is his friend) instead of professional scouts.

might poke a fat hole in your nonsensical argument that McDaniels is making the draft picks.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Check out Breer’s latest article. The N’Keal Harry pick came from Belichick trusting his college coach (who is his friend) instead of professional scouts.

might poke a fat hole in your nonsensical argument that McDaniels is making the draft picks.

The article literally says he aced the Foxboro workout. Who did NKeal Harry work out with ???

 

[crawhammer]

It's a silly question, really, because without a Franchise QB even the best HC's are going to put up mediocre to pretty good numbers at best.

The real question is what the HC did with the talent when he had a Franchise QB.

Shula had ten seasons with Marino and didn't win a single SB (though he won one with Morrall). Plus, seven with Unitas, winning none.
Dungy had seven with P. Manning and won one.
Walsh, eight with Montana and won three.
Noll, 13 with Bradshaw and won four.
Landry, eight with Staubach and won two.
Lombardi, nine with Starr and won two SB's and two NFL Championships.
Johnson, five with Aikman and won three...fired in the greatest miscarriage of management until Daniel Snyder and Woody Johnson acquired franchises.

Belichick, 18 seasons with Brady as QB, won six and went to nine.

Pretty difficult not to put Belichick at the head of the HC class and Brady at the head of the QB class. It's impossible to make an argument for who was more important. They both were.

It's no coincidence that it's mostly Belichick supporters who are critical of the debate. Because all of the data lines up in Brady's favor. The only way to counter it is to magically throw out the Cleveland years and then say one season of separation isn't a valid sample size. His 5-year tenure in Cleveland is fair game, obviously. And this season most definitely counts because there are not going to be many more seasons where we can take account of how each is doing (as Brady will be retiring soon).

The data will only become valid for the Belichick camp if and when there's something favorable to point out. I wasn't posting here when the season started so I'm curious how many people had the team being this bad. Talk about lowering the bar, all of the sudden 6 or 7 wins is some kind of an achievement. If Brady went to Tampa Bay and didn't provide at least a 3 game swing in their record, I would have considered it an underachievement. As it is, he's likely adding 4 wins and giving his new team a chance to compete in the postseason. I also read a lot of criticism of Arians, how much of a buffoon he is, etc. so clearly we're giving all of the credit to Brady for the turnaround.

By the way, Brady is better than all of those quarterbacks, in some cases much better.

 

[captain stone]

It's no coincidence that it's mostly Belichick supporters who are critical of the debate. Because all of the data lines up in Brady's favor. The only way to counter it is to magically throw out the Cleveland years and then say one season of separation isn't a valid sample size. His 5-year tenure in Cleveland is fair game, obviously. And this season most definitely counts because there are not going to be many more seasons where we can take account of how each is doing (as Brady will be retiring soon).

The data will only become valid for the Belichick camp if and when there's something favorable to point out. I wasn't posting here when the season started so I'm curious how many people had the team being this bad. Talk about lowering the bar, all of the sudden 6 or 7 wins is some kind of an achievement. If Brady went to Tampa Bay and didn't provide at least a 3 game swing in their record, I would have considered it an underachievement. As it is, he's likely adding 4 wins and giving his new team a chance to compete in the postseason. I also read a lot of criticism of Arians, how much of a buffoon he is, etc. so clearly we're giving all of the credit to Brady for the turnaround.

There was a Predict the Record thread at the beginning of the season in which I posted 6 wins with Hoyer/Stid and 8 wins with Cant (and 10 wins if Brady had stayed)...I guess I was too optimistic about the team...But then I'm a glass-is-half-full, IBIT guy by nature...

 

[sb1]

There was a Predict the Record thread at the beginning of the season in which I posted 6 wins with Hoyer/Stid and 8 wins with Cant (and 10 wins if Brady had stayed)...I guess I was too optimistic about the team...But then I'm a glass-is-half-full, IBIT guy by nature...

I said 9-7. I think all of us assumed the defense would be good and the roster would carry them past the loss of Brady. Didn’t happen.

 

[crawhammer]

Frankly I would go a step further and argue that BB ignoring Brady’s and the offense’s requirements and focusing solely on the secondary initially and the overall defense lately is not just a tactical mistake but nepotism. He brought in high priced Gilmore, brought in Jason McCourty, and safety acquisitions and kept putting high draft picks into the secondary for 4th and 5th luxury CB backups when it wasn’t clear it was needed. He invested in and made the secondary the best in the league, and made his frickin son look like a genius.

Well I’d look like a genius too if my position group had the highest cap hit and draft capital invested in the league.

BB wanted his son to look good and he did. Another reason to remove him as GM.

I'll push back on the 'making his son look like a genius' part, although I'm not disagreeing that he tried, he just failed at that too. The defensive game plans, in game adjustments, personnel substitutions, and generally the defense have been subpar, at times awful, this season. And seemingly Stephen Belichick is responsible to some degree.

The whole nepotism aspect of it is a real bad look as well. To my understanding the Belichick sons don't have any real coaching experiences outside of with the Patriots. I also think Bill has made an effort otherwise to hire relatively inexperienced or seemingly underqualified assistant coaches as a cover for justifying the hiring of his inexperienced and underqualified sons. This ploy has likely played a part in some of the resulting sloppiness we've seen in the team.

 

[crawhammer]

"Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise".

That's a great way to present your opinion, ya know, by immediately alienating and vilifying anyone who has a different analysis than you.

Are you disagreeing with anything I said before that?

My main points were 1) Belichick (badly) miscalculated when Brady would decline, 2) Belichick started treating Brady like a third-rate quarterback, 3) Belichick failed to surround Brady with enough NFL caliber talent, 4) 1, 2 & 3 forced Brady out of town, 5) Brady is once again playing like an elite quarterback for his new team, 6) without Brady the Patriots have plummeted in production and wins, and 7) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 make Belichick look bad.

So you tell me where I'm wrong...

 

[jimnance]

There was a Predict the Record thread at the beginning of the season in which I posted 6 wins with Hoyer/Stid and 8 wins with Cant (and 10 wins if Brady had stayed)...I guess I was too optimistic about the team...But then I'm a glass-is-half-full, IBIT guy by nature...

Yes you are.

---

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

There was a Predict the Record thread at the beginning of the season in which I posted 6 wins with Hoyer/Stid and 8 wins with Cant (and 10 wins if Brady had stayed)...I guess I was too optimistic about the team...But then I'm a glass-is-half-full, IBIT guy by nature...

Lol!

But your takes/predictions have been pretty accurate for the last few years, especially about head scratching draft picks.

 

[skinnydog]

What’s the basis or evidence you have to claim that Bill is a great coach without Brady? Gut instinct? Eye balling? The stats don’t support this assertion.

Bill brings or really demands players be disciplined and accountable reall to a degree you don;t see around the league very often. Tampa bay for example is really pretty undisciplined at times and it has cost them games. That has rarely happened to the Pats. Bill was really instramental in the first three superbowls in putting together really top defenses. And the win over the Rams was another great defensive effort. He also allowed Brady to progress to the point that he was throwing it all over the filed ala Manning. So yeah, just off the top of my head he's a great coach. Players who have played for him and other coaches seem to think he is a great coach. Does he has faults? For sure. Sometimes it is in silly things like benching Welker for foot jokes or the monumentally stupid decision to bench Butler for the Super Bowl. and as so many have mentioned, one his biggest flaws is drafting players. His financial discipline which many have heralded as a good thing only worked becaue of Brady. Somehow Bill the GM has assembled the worst WR group and the worst TE group in the entire league. With a good QB over the past 20 years Bill woudl have had the team in place to be a perrenial playoff contender. My point is that it is Brady and not Bill that has made them a Super Bowl contender.

 

[skinnydog]

Because BILL did not want to cut him. BTW, absent a favorable call on a fumble and heroics by the kicker, the Pats never win that first championship.

The way Brady practiced, the way the team responded to him and evidently how he performed throughout that first training camp made it too hard to cut him. As to the first SB, lots of teams and perhaps most SB winners had some luck breaks along the way to lifting the trophy.

 

[TheRainMaker]

There was a Predict the Record thread at the beginning of the season in which I posted 6 wins with Hoyer/Stid and 8 wins with Cant (and 10 wins if Brady had stayed)...I guess I was too optimistic about the team...But then I'm a glass-is-half-full, IBIT guy by nature...

I think I said 9-7/10-6 at best with Newton and they would win the division. 5-6 wins with Hoyer/Stidum. Teams would run all over the D but the Secondary would still be strong.

That prediction didn't age well for me.

 

[sb1]

Bill brings or really demands players be disciplined and accountable reall to a degree you don;t see around the league very often. Tampa bay for example is really pretty undisciplined at times and it has cost them games. That has rarely happened to the Pats. Bill was really instramental in the first three superbowls in putting together really top defenses. And the win over the Rams was another great defensive effort. He also allowed Brady to progress to the point that he was throwing it all over the filed ala Manning. So yeah, just off the top of my head he's a great coach. Players who have played for him and other coaches seem to think he is a great coach. Does he has faults? For sure. Sometimes it is in silly things like benching Welker for foot jokes or the monumentally stupid decision to bench Butler for the Super Bowl. and as so many have mentioned, one his biggest flaws is drafting players. His financial discipline which many have heralded as a good thing only worked becaue of Brady. Somehow Bill the GM has assembled the worst WR group and the worst TE group in the entire league. With a good QB over the past 20 years Bill woudl have had the team in place to be a perrenial playoff contender. My point is that it is Brady and not Bill that has made them a Super Bowl contender.

No doubt Bill the GM and Bill the scout are damaging Bill the HC’s legacy to a degree and I don’t think that’s fair but it is what it is.

But I don’t think you can really use stats by themselves to judge a coach, just like you can’t really judge a QB by wins and losses alone.
It’s a team sport. A talented team could finish 10-6 with a lousy coach and a subpar team could finish say 9-7 with a great coach who got the most out of the sparse talent they had. If you look at W/L alone, there’s no way to tell which coach did better. That’s why W/L doesn’t mean much to me when looking at a coach, it’s all about maximizing what you have.

Pats will win 6-7 games with no pass rush, no defensive front, weak linebackers, almost nobody on that side of the ball good enough to play all 3 downs, an up and down secondary, no receivers that would start for any other roster, no NFL tight ends, an up and down OL, a one dimensonal offense who other teams defend by a goal line defense at midfield which honestly is embarrassing to watch, because they have a QB who can’t even throw a fking football but forced to start as his backup quite frankly is terrible and anyone being honest will admit that. Does anyone really think this was a playoff team brought down by their coach? I don’t think so. More likely this is a 2 win caliber team brought up by their coach. If you don’t believe that, read the first sentence of this paragraph again and let that sink in. Bill wasn’t perfect this year as coach himself, but I’m not blaming his coaching job for this result. Again, this is Bill the coach, Bill the GM is a different conversation.

With that said the coach is not flawless either. He was caught cheating and tarnished the organization (Spygate), and he benched Butler and cost his team the Super Bowl. Those were the two biggest coaching mistakes he’s made by far in his Patriots career.

 

[Biffins]

Devin, Chung, Gilmore cost $ and were vets way before steve showed up. This is a pass happy league, corners are prized like left tackles are. Like I said he's also spent big $ on OLine and high picks at WR and RB. The guy is all about winning. I don't buy the nepotism thing at all. I'm as upset as you are over the lack of talent but I think the root cause is a totally inept offensive coordinator at evaluating talent or developing talent.

Yes it's a pass happy league. Yes it's great to have a nice secondary. This isn't some genius level insight. Other teams also want a great secondary.

My point is we have the highest cap hit (I believe consistently top 3) ACROSS THE LEAGUE. So our secondary cap-hit is higher than other teams. I am not comparing the cap hit of the secondary to other positions within the Pats.

Basically we are spending more on on Secondary than almost all other teams consistently, and are always being praised for having an awesome secondary (well yeah, we spent for it) and our secondary coach happens to get praised repeatedly for a great job............ BB's son Steve. My insight is self-evident. BB would want his son to do well in his career.

 

[Biffins]

Never will be solved. It’s always more than the sum of its parts.

I say symbiosis. They were needed for each other.

Both were vital—Brady even more so. I’m

It's already getting solved. Look at the stats.

 

[Biffins]

Sounds to me like you’re saying we should cherry pick and exclude Bill’s career with Brady to judge him as a coach including a year where he had a bad QB. I disagree.

Also his Browns career means nothing to me just his Pats career.

His Pats career ex-Brady is nothing to write home about either mate. It's below 50%.

 

[sb1]

His Pats career ex-Brady is nothing to write home about either mate. It's below 50%.

Yes he is below .500 overall without Brady as Pats coach. It is interesting though that in both of those down seasons (2000 and this year) the roster and/or QB was awful. When it wasn’t (2008 and 2016) his record is well above .500. Coincidence?


Not sure why we are writing off Bills tenure with Brady when we are evaluating the coach. It most certainly is part of the story of Bill just as much as the rest of it as much we might like to believe otherwise.

Again, this is Bill the coach only not Bill the GM. That’s a different story.

 

[sb1]

It's already getting solved. Look at the stats.

Not really.

 

[Biffins]

Bill the GM has made a lot of mistakes. But this is about Bill the HC. He’s getting in the HOF for that - not his GM career.

Bill the Gm for sure has work to do to fix the team, I will not acknowledge Bill is a bad head coach looking only at his 6-7 team win now with a roster almost completely devoid of NFL talent at most positions especially QB. Lombardi and Shula wouldn’t win many games either with a team like that.

coaches don’t win games, his team does. That’s why Brady absolutely was more responsible for the dynasty. But great coaches make the best out of what they have a lot more often than not. I believe BB the HC has done that this year.

Actually Bill is on the dock for both his GM and Coach positions. When we talk about Bill’s contribution to the team, we include both positions. Also we’re paying Josh McD the same salary as HC to hold on to him. And Bill is one of the best paid HCs. His staff is being paid top dollar.

 

[Biffins]

Yep.

The equation Bill's fanboys refuse to admit:

BB - TB = **** LeBeau.

what a perfect analogy!!