Deathmatch: Julian Edelman v. Alex Mack

[Deus Irae]

You can have one, but you can't have the other. Who do you choose? Please explain why in a post.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mack, and it's not close:

1. OL > WR in my book. Mack is one of the best centers in the NFL. He will keep Brady upright, and give him more time. Brady with time improves the offense more than having any single receiving option.
2. Edelman had a great year, but it's only 1 year. He hasn't produced more than 37 receptions or 371 yards receiving or played a full season in any of his other seasons. Mack, OTOH, has been a durable, reliable starter at a Pro Bowl level for 5 seasons.
3. We have good depth at WR, Edelman is somewhat redundant with Amendola, and it's easier to find other WR options in free agency, including options which might be more complementary to our existing group of receivers.

Again, I'd love to keep Edelman, too. But I suspect it would be an either/or situation.

 

[Brady6]

You can have one, but you can't have the other. Who do you choose? Please explain why in a post.

Edelman...

Mack seems like an excellent player but I am not a fan of paying big money for players from other teams because there is no guarantee that their talent will fit as well here. Amendola, Thomas and others have proven that. Also if a player is such an elite player why is their team letting them walk. I liked the Talib move you bring him in see if he is a fit with committing long term.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Edelman...

Mack seems like an excellent player but I am not a fan of paying big money for players from other teams because there is no guarantee that their talent will fit as well here. Amendola, Thomas and others have proven that. Also if a player is such an elite player why is their team letting them walk. I liked the Talib move you bring him in see if he is a fit with committing long term.

Alex Mack should win this poll by a unanimous result. Mack is a superstar center, which is hard to acquire. His team wouldn't be letting him walk, he'd be leaving to get the f out of Cleveland. This is the easiest poll in Patsfans history. I highly doubt this will occur, but I'd learn how to effectively breakdance for the sole purpose of breakdancing in the street if it did.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I highly doubt this will occur...

The Browns have two big name players coming to market (Mack and T.J. Ward), and they can only franchise one. Since I haven't heard anything about which, if either, cleveland will franchise, I thought I'd run with the assumption that Mack turns loose (I may do a deathmatch with Ward later ).

I also expect Mack to command a higher salary than Edelman, and so I expect that choosing him would be more limiting for the Patriots, in terms of other moves.

 

[mgteich]

Alex Mack in as long a contract as is allowable.

Are we really comparing an all-pro with Edelman?

 

[Sciz]

If he's willing to listen to leave Cleveland and not looking for something absurd, Mack is my #1 free agent target for the Pats. My biggest concern would be allocating too much of the cap to the OL with Mankins and Mack having big contracts, Vollmer having a fairly big one, and Solder due for one either a year or two from now. On the other hand, the OL needs an upgrade, and Mack would be a huge one.

 

[mayoclinic]

I also expect Mack to command a higher salary than Edelman, and so I expect that choosing him would be more limiting for the Patriots, in terms of other moves.

There's a very good chance Alex Mack hits the free agent market. Rumors are he's inclined to test the market if allowed to do so, and isn't likely to sign an extension with Cleveland before free agency - though he has said he will allow Cleveland the opportunity to equal any offer he gets in free agency. Rumor also is that Joe Banner is reluctant to use a $9M franchise tag on a center.

The big question is how high the bidding war for Mack goes. Will he get Ryan Kalil kind of money (6 years / $49M, $28M guaranteed)? That would be a lot for the Pats to pony up. A lot of teams are going to be interested in Mack.

While I would expect Mack to command a (probably much) higher AAV than Edelman, I think that his 2014 cap hit can probably be kept to a manageable level. Logan Mankins will be 33 in March 2015, and cutting Mankins after this year is quite manageable ($7M cap savings in 2015 and 2016, which should effectively pay for the majority of Mack's hit in those 2 years).

All in all, I don't think it's a longshot that Mack reaches FA, but I think it's a longshot that the Pats pay the kind of money needed to get him. I think it would be more their style to sign a Jon Asamoah or Rodger Saffold to upgrade RG, and move Dan Connolly to center.

 

[Deus Irae]

Alex Mack in as long a contract as is allowable.

Are we really comparing an all-pro with Edelman?

I've been reading this board since the end of the season, saw the complaints about a lack of threads, and thought I'd toss a few of these out, one at a time. Maybe I should have made it a tournament. Oh, well. Opportunity lost.

Given how much love Edelman's gotten around here lately, I'm a bit surprised that Edelman's not running away with this thing right now.

What that says about anything, I leave to your interpretation...

 

[supafly]

The Browns have two big name players coming to market (Mack and T.J. Ward), and they can only franchise one. Since I haven't heard anything about which, if either, cleveland will franchise, I thought I'd run with the assumption that Mack turns loose (I may do a deathmatch with Ward later ).

I also expect Mack to command a higher salary than Edelman, and so I expect that choosing him would be more limiting for the Patriots, in terms of other moves.

I'm in agreement with those choosing Alex Mack...IF the price allows of course. I believe that Mack will certainly be commanding more than Julian Edelman.

That said, I think I would rather have TJ Ward over both of them, as I think having an adequate safety has been quite the Achilles heel for us lately--so I'll be pulling for Ward in the next steel cage deathmatch.

 

[supafly]

All in all, I don't think it's a longshot that Mack reaches FA, but I think it's a longshot that the Pats pay the kind of money needed to get him. I think it would be more their style to sign a Jon Asamoah or Rodger Saffold to upgrade RG, and move Dan Connolly to center.

I'd be interested in hearing other opinions, but I'm not as convinced as many that Dan Connolly is definitely going to be staying and is the answer either. We'll have to see if they can reach agreement on an extension to get that cap hit lessened, but after being the weak link on the OL in 2012, I felt that Connelly had a very sub-par 2013 in his next year too.

Personally, I think Cannon moves to RG, and our center comes via the draft or even outside lower level FA pickup that we're not envisioning. I'm not convinced that either one of Wendell/Connolly is 100% safe, even though the odds are probably good that we'll keep one or the other.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I appreciate the thread topic Deus, and I would/will also vote for TJ Ward if he ends up in a deathmatch against Edelman as well. I don't mean to bag on Edelman, who has a lot of heart and talent and who I am a fan of. I just prefer elite All-Pro level talent...that's just me.

 

[Deus Irae]

I appreciate the thread topic Deus, and I would/will also vote for TJ Ward if he ends up in a deathmatch against Edelman as well. I don't mean to bag on Edelman, who has a lot of heart and talent and who I am a fan of. I just prefer elite All-Pro level talent...that's just me.

Your input is always appreciated by me, and your post forced me to explain my reasoning behind the thread, so that was an added bonus, IMO. :thumb:

 

[mayoclinic]

If he's willing to listen to leave Cleveland and not looking for something absurd, Mack is my #1 free agent target for the Pats. My biggest concern would be allocating too much of the cap to the OL with Mankins and Mack having big contracts, Vollmer having a fairly big one, and Solder due for one either a year or two from now. On the other hand, the OL needs an upgrade, and Mack would be a huge one.

As I mentioned in another post, Mack's 2014 cap hit can probably be kept to a manageable level - Ryan Kalil's 2011 cap hit under his 6 year / $49M contract was only $4.6M, for comparison. By 2015 Logan Mankins can be cut (he will be 33) with a cap savings of $7M, so his contract would be out of the way. Vollmer's contract isn't that enormous - cap hits of $3.75M in 2014 and $4.5M in 2015 and 2016; the Pats would incur a cap hit of only $1.75M if they cut Vollmer prior to the 2016 season.

As for Solder, the Pats have an option to exercise on him this year to keep him for 2015 at the average of the top 25 OLs in the NFL, non-guaranteed. Almost all teams are predicted to use the option on their 2011 1st round picks:

A storm is brewing | National Football Post

The Pats could keep Solder for 2015 for around $5-6M non-guaranteed, and by 2016 Vollmer (who will turn 32 prior to the 2016 season) could be cut or re-negotiated.

It's not an unmanageable situation. The question is whether they are willing to pay what it takes to land Mack, which will be in the Mankins range.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'd be interested in hearing other opinions, but I'm not as convinced as many that Dan Connolly is definitely going to be staying and is the answer either. We'll have to see if they can reach agreement on an extension to get that cap hit lessened, but after being the weak link on the OL in 2012, I felt that Connelly had a very sub-par 2013 in his next year too.

Personally, I think Cannon moves to RG, and our center comes via the draft or even outside lower level FA pickup that we're not envisioning. I'm not convinced that either one of Wendell/Connolly is 100% safe, even though the odds are probably good that we'll keep one or the other.

So, Connolly ($3m) + Amendola-sized contract (call it $5m) =

Solder
Mankins
Mack
Cannon
Vollmer

Amendola*
Dobson
Thompkins
Boyce
bargain basement WR

Gronk
Hooman
TE draftee

?




*Or Amendola as a 'post-june' cut, with the bullet bitten in both 2014 and 2015 so that Edelman can take his salary slot (?)

 

[mayoclinic]

I'd be interested in hearing other opinions, but I'm not as convinced as many that Dan Connolly is definitely going to be staying and is the answer either. We'll have to see if they can reach agreement on an extension to get that cap hit lessened, but after being the weak link on the OL in 2012, I felt that Connelly had a very sub-par 2013 in his next year too.

Personally, I think Cannon moves to RG, and our center comes via the draft or even outside lower level FA pickup that we're not envisioning. I'm not convinced that either one of Wendell/Connolly is 100% safe, even though the odds are probably good that we'll keep one or the other.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying what I preferred, merely suggesting what the Pats might do as an alternative to splurging on a high priced FA. I've had the "cut Connolly" option in a number of my posts and discussions on other threads. One issue with that is that if we dump Connolly and let Wendell walk (both of which would be fine by me) we would have no clear backup center. I had been hoping the team might re-sign Nick McDonald as a utility lineman, but he's signed a futures contract with San Diego. Braxton Cave could be an option, or a day 3 rookie draftee, but it's a bit murky.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

As for Solder, the Pats have an option to exercise on him this year to keep him for 2015 at the average of the top 25 OLs in the NFL, non-guaranteed. Almost all teams are predicted to use the option on their 2011 1st round picks:

It actually is guaranteed in stages. It's guaranteed against injury as soon as it is exercised (which is why most teams are expected to use it on the day of the deadline). It becomes guaranteed against skill and salary cap relief on the first day of the player's fifth league year. [As a minor point, it's actually the average of #3 through #25, which drops it a bit.]

 

[supafly]

It actually is guaranteed in stages. It's guaranteed against injury as soon as it is exercised (which is why most teams are expected to use it on the day of the deadline). It becomes guaranteed against skill and salary cap relief on the first day of the player's fifth league year. [As a minor point, it's actually the average of #3 through #25, which drops it a bit.]

Nerd...

(kidding, of course)

 

[supafly]

So, Connolly ($3m) + Amendola-sized contract (call it $5m) =

Solder
Mankins
Mack
Cannon
Vollmer

Amendola*
Dobson
Thompkins
Boyce
bargain basement WR

Gronk
Hooman
TE draftee

?




*Or Amendola as a 'post-june' cut, with the bullet bitten in both 2014 and 2015 so that Edelman can take his salary slot (?)

Looks like an improvement, although I still can't seem to get over the lack of receiving options myself, although I'm going to have to learn quickly. Just to clarify, I'm not normally one of the whiners who see the WR position as anything to be concerned about, but this season changed that for me.

A draft choice at TE who can actually catch the ball and contribute in more areas than blocking would go a long way, and we'd have the looks of a much better line.

 

[ausbacker]

Minitron, you were excellent this season but I'm going with Alex Mack and it's not close. Protecting Brady is the single biggest factor that will determine the success of the Offense.

One does not simply walk into Mordor and acquire All Pro caliber lineman. That is why.