Christian Barmore the most double-teamed DT in the NFL?

[One-If-By-Sea]

Barmore shows promise, but he has a ways to go to turn that into production.

The more mysterious cases are the players that are frequently double teamed but have little pass rush impact. That could be because they aren't good at rushing the passer (Poe last year) or because the double team renders them ineffective. And sometimes it's just a scheme thing - nose tackles are often double teamed even though they don't often create pressure on the passer. A win for them is holding their ground and not getting pushed off their spot.

For Barmore, he is very frequently double teamed and has some modest success rushing the passer. I suspect it's mostly a scheme thing with him (Butler was similar last year).

I agree with this. I am not a great Xs and Os guy, but isn't the double team due to some formation that BB uses occasionally. In other words the double team is not an opposing offensive plan. For example (I am guessing here) Barmore (or Butler previously) are the DT in a 3 man defensive line and are two gapping over the center. So one of the guards naturally helps the center, so Barmore is double teamed (but not for his pass rushing threat, only because of the defensive formation)? Butler was the same last year. I made this up, but thought it might be correct.

Barmore might be defeating some of the double teams, but more likely he has a high win rate when he is not double teamed (the two are independent), so the graph is of limited value because it implies the player that is defeating double teams when that is not necessarily true?

 

[Ring 6]

I agree with this. I am not a great Xs and Os guy, but isn't the double team due to some formation that BB uses occasionally. In other words the double team is not an opposing offensive plan. For example (I am guessing here) Barmore (or Butler previously) are the DT in a 3 man defensive line and are two gapping over the center. So one of the guards naturally helps the center, so Barmore is double teamed (but not for his pass rushing threat, only because of the defensive formation)? Butler was the same last year. I made this up, but thought it might be correct.

Barmore might be defeating some of the double teams, but more likely he has a high win rate when he is not double teamed (the two are independent), so the graph is of limited value because it implies the player that is defeating double teams when that is not necessarily true?

Yes and no.
These numbers are only pass plays so 2 gapping isn’t really a factor.
But yes the patriots not only often play a man on the nose on passing downs but also put a lot of emphasis on disguising where the pressure is coming from. When they don’t bring pressure that tends to create a double inside out of reaction, not necessarily design.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

The pass defense did 4th in the NFL.
They allow less than 60% complete and an 81 passer rating. They are too 10 in sacks and 5th in sack %.

The defense overall is also 5th in points allowed and yards allowed and 11th in turnovers.
That is the definition of good.

. . . as I said, the numbers look good in aggregate.

That is not the same as analyzing whether or not individual players are performing up to par. Nor does it look at situational success. But that's as far as I'll go with this, because I've seen these debates devolve into endless back and forth hysteria. No thanks.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Yes and no.
These numbers are only pass plays so 2 gapping isn’t really a factor.
But yes the patriots not only often play a man on the nose on passing downs but also put a lot of emphasis on disguising where the pressure is coming from. When they don’t bring pressure that tends to create a double inside out of reaction, not necessarily design.

Thanks. I knew you understood it - thanks for clarifying.

 

[Hawaiianpatsfan2]

This is a product of scheme BTW. Adam Butler was the most double teamed DT in the NFL one year.

Barmore is already playing more than him & it’s a matter of time before he plays the most snaps among the DTs on the team. Now get a legit run stuffer to pair with him.

Maybe we’ll be in the position to draft the monster from Georgia. Jordan Davis I believe is his name. 360lbs of freak. I can easily day dream thinking of him pared with Barmore.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Question: could this contribute to why Judon has been so effective as a pass rusher this year?

 

[Ring 6]

Question: could this contribute to why Judon has been so effective as a pass rusher this year?

Well it could but probably not. Part of pass rushing scheme is to free up your best rushers, so things they do the create that help Judon.
Look at it this way, when you rush 3 or 4 especially when you disguise who is rushing the guy ending up double teamed is the guy nearest the free blocker more so than the guy you are most concerned about.
In other words if barmore is in the A gap and we show an inside blitz and then back out and rush 3 the C and G are doubling barmore no matter who he is because there us no way they are able to block that by doubling the edge guy and leaving the DT one on one.

 

[Joey007]

He’s much better than Godawfulchaux

 

[Betterthanmost]

And they say....

 

[captain stone]

And they say....

Pats really desperate for OL help... The more you can do...

 

[Vindicate]

As many have cited, I just hope we don't have an Easley situation - promising talent that shows but due to motivation, slows (I think Easley was a bit further along, I remember a stat showing he was the quickest DT off the line by a decent margin, however Easley and Barmore are very different players at 270lb and 310lb respectively)

I really wish Easley worked out. Hard to fault anyone for that pick. But Barmore, albeit a different kind of DT, looks to be promising in his own right.

Edit: had my weights backwards

 

[captain stone]

As many have cited, I just hope we don't have an Easley situation - promising talent that shows but due to motivation, slows (I think Easley was a bit further along, I remember a stat showing he was the quickest DT off the line by a decent margin, however Easley and Barmore are very different players at 270lb and 310lb respectively)

I really wish Easley worked out. Hard to fault anyone for that pick. But Barmore, albeit a different kind of DT, looks to be promising in his own right.

No it isn't.

 

[JMC00]

 

[catent]

Barmore has been as good as anyone could've hoped for ... even better.

As far as I can tell they've given him a baptism by fire. His snap count is ridiculously high. My sense is that they know the guy has talent out the whazoo but he's super raw. If they can play him early and often, that'll help him gain polish (physically and mentally) a lot quicker. The question is whether or not a young, raw player like Barmore can handle that workload.

The fact that Barmore has handled it so well, and not only maintained, but arguably improved over the course of the season is damn impressive. He looks quicker, stronger, physically in better shape now than he did in week 1. He's playing harder, faster, and stronger, despite being almost 10 weeks into his rookie season at the age of 22 years old.

Barring injury, I'm extremely bullish on Barmore; he could end up being a massive pick.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Give Barmore all of Godchaux's snaps. Barmore is very high potential

 

[slash83]

Give Barmore all of Godchaux's snaps. Barmore is very high potential

It’s a long season, you don’t wanna ware the rookie out.

 

[PScottman]

It’s a long season, you don’t wanna ware the rookie out.

Andre Ware - that's a name I haven't heard in a loooooong time.

 

[JayNM]

He is a beast. Between him and Judon, we are set for potencial on our D-line that we havent seen in the BB era, at least since the second half of th TB era.

And it comes on the best time, since we're gonna need to replace some guys behind them sooner rather than later

 

[SouthernPatriot]

I am so very happy that it is working out for Barmore!

There were many who said he should come back to Bama for another year to up his draft status, thinking he would easily be a top 1st round pick with another year. He had a bit of an issue with attention to detail while at Bama, and would take plays off every now and then.

I haven't seen any of that since he has been in NFL, or I should say, I haven't heard about any of that since I have only watched a few games. Just goes to prove, sometimes a guy just needs a change to be all he can be!

 

[patsinthesnow]

The last time BB had two players this caliber on the DL was Chandler Jones & Wilfork. It changes how he can play D.

As the team gets more experience playing zone I think it’ll serve them well longterm being a hybrid defense with the ability to generate pressure with just 4 rather than blitzing.