Bruce Arians counting his chickens before they hatch (Chandler Jones)

[BobDigital]

Could we at least see him play a single snap in a meaningful game before jumping to this conclusion? Yes, I agree, most likely Chandler Jones will make the Cardinals defense better. But to act like he has already come as advertised, or to conclude that he has improved their team, is speculation. Look at what Suh did in Miami last year; their pass rush and run defense was among the very worst in the NFL last year. He gradually improved and was pretty good by the end of the year, but few would have predicted how terrible he was for half the season, and there is no sure thing that he'll ever be close to what they are expecting. When players switch teams, schemes, and coaches, sometimes the unexplainable happens. I would also say that "pure" pass rushers are among the most finnicky players of all the positions; it's a split second difference between getting through to the QB and getting contained...there are lots of factors that can drastically change their production within a defense, and we've seen many times players not work out despite looking like a perfect fit.

Well we don't know how much he will improve the Cards and how much the Patriots will miss him but i think it is fair to conclude we have every possible reason to believe both will happen to an extent. I am not stipulating he needs to have 10-15 sacks with the Cards to help them. He can be half the player he was here and still help their team and we are still hurt by losing him.

Now if he gets injured in preseason and misses the year that is one thing but Jones has a long track record and plays at a position that is more based on winning a 1v1 match up than Suh. Also Suh is kind of an unfair case to compare to Jones as he added 20M in cap hit and force the Dolphins to let go of good players cause he was so massively over paid (and frankly Suh is a bit overrated). Frankly the Dolphins D probably became worse after all the changes cause Suh was not good enough to off set the loses.

The Cards are getting Jones for a pretty fair amount of money so they won't have that issue.

 

[Canuck]

I would say losing Chandler Jones has to hurt our pass rush. He was our most dominant pass rusher. While our offense suffered with all the injuries last year, it was the defense that kept us in games and Jones was a key part of that effort. That being said, Jones was not a dominating force in the playoffs. Even when we won the last SB, he was not a factor like Von Miller was for the Broncos. So does losing Jones really hurt that much? It seems that no matter who we let go, the Patriots still end up averaging 12 wins a season and make the playoffs. In the end, we will still probably make the playoffs and I don't think it will be that hard to replace Jone's production in the playoffs.

 

[BobDigital]

I know this is beyond your point, and I don't mean to nitpick, but if you think Von Miller will make $16M a year or Jones will make $12M a year, you need to take a closer look at the recent FA contracts. Malik Jackson is making around $15M a year!!! He is not even a pro bowl player. Miller will likely make closer to $20M and Jones will almost certainly exceed $15M. I do agree with your general idea, though, which is that, if you are going to pay through the nose, you need to make sure you have a superstar, and good teams only realize they have a superstar who fits well into their system when they are extending someone already with the team.

No that is fair and good to point out. And yes that is beyond my point. I was just using numbers that made it easier to make my point.

I think both numbers you gave each each player more properly reflect it. Though this is now a little off topic he is a bit more on my thoughts on breaking down players.

A - These are players that are so dominant they not only win their match up but influence others (IE Making other players jobs easier and making them appear better than they are).
B - These players win their match up but not as dominate and simply give you a plus in their match up but not enough to really influence other areas of the game.
C - Players that go even. Those are solid good players
D - Players that lose more than they win. They are guys you look to replace but they are usually cheap and if given specific or easier jobs can be covered for by better players.
E - JAGS

There is some cross over so you may have someone who is an A- or B+ or is impossible to distinguish between 2 categories but that is generally how i see players.

Jones is generally a B and ideally you don't want to give a B players a long term big deal.

 

[JMC00]

He was our most dominant pass rusher.

This is absolutely 100% false. Jabaal Sheard was the most dominating pass rusher last year. Don't let Jones 3 sacks on Tyrod Taylor and 2 sacks against the Titans fool you.

Not mention this gift of a sack

Had their Center and LG more worried about Brown than they had their rookie LT against Jones


or this one where Easley and Collins deserved the real credit

 

[BobDigital]

I would say losing Chandler Jones has to hurt our pass rush. He was our most dominant pass rusher. While our offense suffered with all the injuries last year, it was the defense that kept us in games and Jones was a key part of that effort. That being said, Jones was not a dominating force in the playoffs. Even when we won the last SB, he was not a factor like Von Miller was for the Broncos. So does losing Jones really hurt that much? It seems that no matter who we let go, the Patriots still end up averaging 12 wins a season and make the playoffs. In the end, we will still probably make the playoffs and I don't think it will be that hard to replace Jone's production in the playoffs.

Yeah that Tom Brady guy is okay. Not Bad having guys like Gronk and Edelman too.

 

[BobDigital]

This is absolutely 100% false. Jabaal Sheard was the most dominating pass rusher last year. Don't let Jones 3 sacks on Tyrod Taylor and 2 sacks against the Titans fool you.

Not mention this gift of a sack


or this one where Easley and Collins deserved the real credit

IDK if I would say Jones was or was not our best rusher overall for the year but to say he was the best might not be true clearly.

The best rusher last year on a snap % basis was Easley. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but his pressure % was the best of any DT in the NFL IIRC. He was absolutely sick at times. If was worth shutting him down last year to avoid major injury if he can be healthy this year. Honestly and i say this with no trace of homerism... if he can play 16 healthy game he will probably be the best DT in the NFL. All due respect to Atkins and Donald and Co. Sheard was hurt for parts last year but when healthy he certainly did look better than Jones. Their games as slightly different but Sheard seems to have a knack to make the play when needed and his run stopping is legit good.

In fairness to Jones though he got a lot of holding calls and even more that were uncalled.

EDIT: Found something on Easley

Best NFL Pass Rushers | 2015 | Pro Football Focus

First off JJ Watt doesn't always play DT and Easley was injured for some of those rushes and % wise he was STILL the best.

 

[Gronk]

It should clearly help the Cardinals immediately, and I don't know if it "hurts" NE because Sheard on the field more may well be an improvement plus the addition of Long to help, but I also don't think it's necessary to dispute every play Jones made either. If he'd been truly dominant in the Reggie White or LT sense, of course BB would never have let him go and they'd move someone else to find the money to pay him. He wasn't, so given everything else with it being the last year of CJ's contract, this trade is probably one of the easiest calls BB ever had to make.

The fact that he made the sack in the .gif above (plus stripping the ball) even if it looks like a play almost anyone should make, hell at least he made it. I'm sure if we parsed tape of every DE in the league you'd find what look like easy plays that they missed, great plays that looked unlikely, etc. He was a good player. He'll probably be a good player in AZ too.

Not sure what we'd expect Arians to say about a player his team just acquired at a position of obvious need that they gave up a #2 and a former #1 pick for though..."Yeah, hopefully he doesn't get high a bunch and disappear in big games, plus that kid we sent back is trash anyway" ?? Yes I would think it was weird if BB made a similar comment about a player, but that's who he is and I don't really see anything wrong with what Arians said or think it's somehow elevating expectations to some irresponsible level to express his satisfaction having acquired Jones.

 

[Canuck]

This is absolutely 100% false. Jabaal Sheard was the most dominating pass rusher last year. Don't let Jones 3 sacks on Tyrod Taylor and 2 sacks against the Titans fool you.

Not mention this gift of a sack

Had their Center and LG more worried about Brown than they had their rookie LT against Jones


or this one where Easley and Collins deserved the real credit

I can't fault your logic. I think Sheard is one of the reasons that Bill felt comfortable in letting Jones go early to get the maximum return. I thought Sheard was our best and most consistent pass rusher. Just a thought, why didn't Sheard get the 3 sacks against Taylor or 2 sacks against the Titans if he was the most dominant pass rusher instead of Jones?

 

[AzorianPats]

IDK if I would say Jones was or was not our best rusher overall for the year but to say he was the best might not be true clearly.

The best rusher last year on a snap % basis was Easley. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but his pressure % was the best of any DT in the NFL IIRC. He was absolutely sick at times. If was worth shutting him down last year to avoid major injury if he can be healthy this year. Honestly and i say this with no trace of homerism... if he can play 16 healthy game he will probably be the best DT in the NFL. All due respect to Atkins and Donald and Co. Sheard was hurt for parts last year but when healthy he certainly did look better than Jones. Their games as slightly different but Sheard seems to have a knack to make the play when needed and his run stopping is legit good.

In fairness to Jones though he got a lot of holding calls and even more that were uncalled.

EDIT: Found something on Easley

Best NFL Pass Rushers | 2015 | Pro Football Focus

First off JJ Watt doesn't always play DT and Easley was injured for some of those rushes and % wise he was STILL the best.

I love Easley man, but in order for me to put him up there with Donald and Atkins, he has to be more of a 3 down player. Pats were putting him in a lot of passing downs.

I do agree though, he's trending up, and if he can stay healthy and create that pressure up the middle, the Pats can have me and you starting at both ends, we'll all get sacks.

 

[RayClay]

This thread is so dumb. Jones had legitimate injuries at the end of both years. People showing gifs of a great sack and trying to pretend he was awful just because he's gone. Silly.

I don't see why anyone would want him in a 3-4, unless it's a lot different than our 3-4. Will he have linebacker responsibilities?

He had injuries at inopportune times and character questions with his fake pot meltdown and we needed to decide who to spend front 7 money on, but physically, he's one of the best pass rushers in the league and played his other responsibilities well too.

Hope we can hold serve or improve at pass rush.

 

[RayClay]

I can't fault your logic. I think Sheard is one of the reasons that Bill felt comfortable in letting Jones go early to get the maximum return. I thought Sheard was our best and most consistent pass rusher. Just a thought, why didn't Sheard get the 3 sacks against Taylor or 2 sacks against the Titans if he was the most dominant pass rusher instead of Jones?

Also, love Sheard, but he rushed a lot from the middle with Jones drawing attention. Maybe we'll be as good or better, but I'll need to see it first.

 

[ausbacker]

Chandler, injuries aside, should see a good amount of success in that defense. He won't have the gap responsibilities, among other things, there that he does here. He'll have much more freedom to simply pin his ears back and rush the passer. That said, Jones is someone whose production has been known to tail off, particularly down the stretch. Did he even make the team plane to Denver? We will see if that carries over to Arizona.

We share an agreement. Mind you, smart teams would run the football right at Jones. His run D had improved, but it my opinion, it remains a significant weakness in his game.

I expect Jones to put up some big sack numbers in Arizona mainly because they brought him in to rush the passer. I get the feeling he'll be given liberties in that regard.

 

[Marqui]

Jones is going to be an all-pro in Arizona.

 

[Patriot Missile]

He was really good here and I thank him for the service he put in. He was paid like a first rounder to do so, so I would hope he gave us his best effort. Injuries asides, a really stupid decision later and who knows what else behind closed doors?

I would consider him a red chip with the potential to be a blue chip player if he puts it all together. If anything, his time in New England taught him discipline and how to approach the run as a DE and to drop into coverage a little bit. He was a not so good run stopper and he improved every year imo.

I imagine had he been on another team he may of been a 16-18 sack guy that was free to roam and do as he pleased but I think some parts of his game would of never flourished like it had here. He may be that for Arizona when it's all said and done. They may give him a long leash and Arians just want him to get to the Qb and give him a long leash with latitude about stopping the run. I wish the guy luck. Aside for when he plays the Pats.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Bruce Ariens will be choking his chicken next year ...