Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Your opinion goes against the reported information. Again, reports are that the Pats offered Waters a substantial pay raise before the start of the season. Not recently.

The fact of the matter is Belichick has never been afraid of giving big salaries to seasoned veterans who would command much less elsewhere. In recent years alone, he overpaid for Shaun Ellis, Chad Ochocinco, and Branch his first year back.

If we all knew EXACT numbers of what BILL offered and what BRIAN wanted would make this argument so much easier as to who should have acted differently.

But no one knows EXACTLY anything in terms of dollars..so everyone guesses at it.

 

[Rob0729]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Once again posters here ignore the significant possibility I've mentioned that Waters simply does not wish to play or does not wish to play here. Period. That scenario fits well with allegedly turning down more money. Hello!

I think it is a very real possibilty. It was reported over the summer that Waters wanted to force a trade to Houston or Dallas so he could be close to his family. We all dismissed it, but it may be 100% true.

 

[unoriginal]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Consider that Pony up and f***ing shiny as a muth*****a! ... and Waters still isn't back. You read the thread title, right?

Waters made at least $4.9 million in 2010. It was $1.4 million in 2011. How much is a "substantial" increase? Did the Pats offer $6 million?

I think that, since as far as we know, the Pats aren't fining Waters, and wanted to alter his contract to vet min base plus LTBE per-game incentives, they are open to Waters being a part-time player.

 

[Rob0729]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

If we all knew EXACT numbers of what BILL offered and what BRIAN wanted would make this argument so much easier as to who should have acted differently.

But no one knows EXACTLY anything in terms of dollars..so everyone guesses at it.

But that's my point. You are killing the Pats for insulting Waters with lowball offers until now and showing Waters respect for standing by his principles for not taking the money after being insulted. You don't know if that is the situation at all.

For all we know, Waters could be unreasonable. Or Waters just doesn't want to play here. Or the Pats did insult him with lowball offers. Or Waters just wants to retire.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

First, you assume that Waters would come back for any reasonable amount of money. He may just wanted to stay at home with his family.

Second, you assume they were ever close. For all we know, the Pats could have been kept on making offers without Waters ever wanting to come to bargaining table.

Third, you assume that the Pats' offered insulting offers until now. And now Waters won't return on principle.

That is a lot of assumptions without any evidence to support it.

I did think initially it was about family issues but with reports of saying its more about money made me think it's not just location.

It's true there is no proof Waters was too greedy and there is no proof that he ever wanted to play at all again and may have just played with numbers.

Of course it's all assumptions which is what most of us do from our computers in the forum because no one here works in the F.O.

 

[Reckedtrek]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

No media,no fan knows EXACTLY whether Waters wanted,maybe crazy money like 4M or whether he was happy with 2.5 or maybe 3

I think he was worth up to 3 but I bet the offer was closer to that now.....it's too late anyway

Right!

You don't know what Waters wanted.
You don't know what the Patriots offered.
You don't know when the team offered it.

But still it doesn't keep you from stating your opinion (based on your own speculation) as if its fact; that Belichick is somehow solely responsible for Waters not coming back.

Once again, something that you don't know.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

But that's my point. You are killing the Pats for insulting Waters with lowball offers until now and showing Waters respect for standing by his principles for not taking the money after being insulted. You don't know if that is the situation at all.

For all we know, Waters could be unreasonable. Or Waters just doesn't want to play here. Or the Pats did insult him with lowball offers. Or Waters just wants to retire.

I sort of agree with that

I just am asserting my opinion.......do I have facts? NO

But then again who in here has?

 

[Reckedtrek]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Waters made at least $4.9 million in 2010. It was $1.4 million in 2011. How much is a "substantial" increase? Did the Pats offer $6 million?

I think that, since as far as we know, the Pats aren't fining Waters, and wanted to alter his contract to vet min base plus LTBE per-game incentives, they are open to Waters being a part-time player.

I believe that that information (bolded) has since shown to be misreported.

As far as what they offered and what he wanted, I don't have any info that I KNOW to be factual and I'm assuming you don't either unless you work for the Pats FO or are very close to Brian Waters.

 

[Reckedtrek]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

I sort of agree with that

I just am asserting my opinion.......do I have facts? NO

But then again who in here has?

An opinion is your view on an issue once you have the facts and have had time to process them. Without factual information, you are left with pure speculation.

People cling onto other peoples speculations (knowingly and unknowingly) and treat them as facts. That's why we have the internet!

 

[unoriginal]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

I believe that that information (bolded) has since shown to be misreported.

As far as what they offered and what he wanted, I don't have any info that I KNOW to be factual and I'm assuming you don't either unless you work for the Pats FO or are very close to Brian Waters.

Well, did you read my first post?

 

[Danger Zone]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Healthy criticism of your coaches is a good thing.

However, to the extent that some posters are ascribing malicious, petty motivations to Belichick in regards to certain roster moves (or lack there of) is... disturbing.

 

[Reckedtrek]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Well, did you read my first post?

Yes, I did. The phrase you highlighted was intended to be rhetorical.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

There's nothing warped about it, but great job by you to turn a simple post noting that we need more information into an excuse for your personal attack.

Personal attack? Good grief, you have thin skin for such a controversial poster. I assumed you were proud of that behavioral trait? If you were truly offended, I apologize.

 

[BradyFTW!]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Healthy criticism of your coaches is a good thing.

However, to the extent that some posters are ascribing malicious, petty motivations to Belichick in regards to certain roster moves (or lack there of) is... disturbing.

There are some coaches where you can ascribe maliciousness/incompetence to their actions. You should hear USC fans out here venting about Lane Kiffin after watching their team flush its title hopes down the toilet by losing to Stanford (they hate Stanford, and football is supposed to be the only thing they're better at) for the third straight year.

For some bizarre reason, a lot of Pats fans are reacting in similar fashion, the difference being that our loss this past weekend matters infinitely less than USC's did, and there's no actual track record to base your complaints on in Belichick's case.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

As Deus pointed out in his post, we have no idea what a significant increase amounts to. I tweeted Shalize asking if the raise he was offered was in addition to the $2.25M he was owned including LTBE incentives. Because all the mediots keep talking about $1.4M which was just his base salary - that he was asked to reduce to $900K with the stipulation he could earn it and more back in incentives. His deal was for 2 years $5.5M including incentives. He earned his incentives in year 1. This year he would have earned the remaining $750K just by starting probably 14 games. So the question is were they offering him a chance to earn substantially more than $2.25M?? And what on earth possessed them to ask for a restructure anyway? None of his contract was guaranteed unless he made the 53 in week 1. Why wasn't that insurance enough for them? Was the whole thing some sort of crazy cover for allowing him to miss camp? Like his teamates would be pissed if a pro bowl player contemplating retirement who helped them get to the superbowl last season chose to rejoin them? Pahleeeese.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

There are some coaches where you can ascribe maliciousness/incompetence to their actions. You should hear USC fans out here venting about Lane Kiffin after watching their team flush its title hopes down the toilet by losing to Stanford (they hate Stanford, and football is supposed to be the only thing they're better at) for the third straight year.

For some bizarre reason, a lot of Pats fans are reacting in similar fashion, the difference being that our loss this past weekend matters infinitely less than USC's did, and there's no actual track record to base your complaints on in Belichick's case.

That loss could be the difference between home games and having to go to Baltimore/Houston. That's extremely important, IMO.

 

[Sciz]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

As Deus pointed out in his post, we have no idea what a significant increase amounts to. I tweeted Shalize asking if the raise he was offered was in addition to the $2.25M he was owned including LTBE incentives. Because all the mediots keep talking about $1.4M which was just his base salary - that he was asked to reduce to $900K with the stipulation he could earn it and more back in incentives. His deal was for 2 years $5.5M including incentives. He earned his incentives in year 1. This year he would have earned the remaining $750K just by starting probably 14 games. So the question is were they offering him a chance to earn substantially more than $2.25M?? And what on earth possessed them to ask for a restructure anyway? None of his contract was guaranteed unless he made the 53 in week 1. Why wasn't that insurance enough for them? Was the whole thing some sort of crazy cover for allowing him to miss camp? Like his teamates would be pissed if a pro bowl player contemplating retirement who helped them get to the superbowl last season chose to rejoin them? Pahleeeese.

I swear we could get Waters to say that he wouldn't return at any price and you'd still be blaming Belichick.

 

[Danger Zone]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

I swear we could get Waters to say that he wouldn't return at any price and you'd still be blaming Belichick.

Haters never let facts get in the way of their mind-reading another's motivations for everything they do.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

That loss could be the difference between home games and having to go to Baltimore/Houston. That's extremely important, IMO.

Balt has a very tough schedule down the stretch even if the beat us sunday..may have to go to Houston however

 

[MoLewisrocks]

re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

That leaves way too much unanswered for us to make a fair appraisal. "Last ditch effort", for example, could very easily be seen as "too little, too late". "Significant" is another word/phrase that's often looked at as much more "significant" to one party than the other. The "significant" offer made by the NHL to the NHL players is a pretty good example of that.

The Patriots felt they made a significant offer to Welker last fall. Most folks felt it was almost insulting. I remember one March when Jonathan was touting the significant offer they made to Adam, offering to make him the highest paid kicker in the league. Only the offer contained no signing bonus and zero guaranteed money meaning if he slipped on the soap before the first week of the upcoming season he'd be **** out of luck... The Colts on the other hand offered him a 5 year deal with a $3.5M signing bonus and $7.5M guaranteed. And he saw all of it and more. They were reportedly upset he didn't give them a chance to match that offer. Which many here spun into his being a traitor.