Best Defense in the AFCE?

[eagle eye]

How many Jet games did you see?

6 including the two Patriots games.

 

[K-Ro 25]

eagle eye you are like my henchmen. Left and right people are killing the Jets overboard. How are the Jets secondary not better then the Pats? How is Jenkins when healthy not on par w/ Wilfork? Through ten games he was arguably the NFL DPOTY then he got hurt. Im not saying we have a better D but the Pats have just as many holes as the Jets. If Lito is a question mark then so is Shawn Springs and Leigh Bodden.

 

[BradyFTW!]

eagle eye you are like my henchmen. Left and right people are killing the Jets overboard. How are the Jets secondary not better then the Pats? How is Jenkins when healthy not on par w/ Wilfork? Through ten games he was arguably the NFL DPOTY then he got hurt. Im not saying we have a better D but the Pats have just as many holes as the Jets. If Lito is a question mark then so is Shawn Springs and Leigh Bodden.

Yeah, but he's never healthy. He has notoriously poor conditioning, he's old, he has a bad shoulder and bad knees, and when he wears down (which he does consistently) he either gets hurt or becomes a JAG. Wilfork is almost as good as Jenkins when Jenkins is healthy, and is far more durable and well-conditioned than Jenkins is.

Lito is a question mark because by the playoffs last season he was fourth on the Eagles' depth chart. To call that a red flag would be an understatement. I agree that Bodden and Springs are question marks, but neither on of them got supplanted by a Joselio Hanson of the world.

 

[K-Ro 25]

Yeah, but he's never healthy. He has notoriously poor conditioning, he's old, he has a bad shoulder and bad knees, and when he wears down (which he does consistently) he either gets hurt or becomes a JAG. Wilfork is almost as good as Jenkins when Jenkins is healthy, and is far more durable and well-conditioned than Jenkins is.

Lito is a question mark because by the playoffs last season he was fourth on the Eagles' depth chart. To call that a red flag would be an understatement.

Jenkins is 29 thats not old in my book. I dont know about his vaunted wear down history that you all claim to be experts on so I wont comment on that. I know that for 11 weeks of football he was clearly the best DT in football. That alone puts him in Wilforks class.

I will accept Lito as a? however it must be said that Springs and Leigh Bodden are bigger ?'s. Springs b/c of age and production drop off and Bodden b/c he hasnt done jack ish to live up to his potential and was cut by a winless team. Lito was benched primarily because a) Samuel came in b) his contract beef and c) he lost a step. Can he still be good is to be seen. I still know that there is a top 5 corner on the other side of him next year.

 

[Deus Irae]

eagle eye you are like my henchmen. Left and right people are killing the Jets overboard. How are the Jets secondary not better then the Pats? How is Jenkins when healthy not on par w/ Wilfork? Through ten games he was arguably the NFL DPOTY then he got hurt. Im not saying we have a better D but the Pats have just as many holes as the Jets. If Lito is a question mark then so is Shawn Springs and Leigh Bodden.

Well, see, he's not been as good. Therefore, he's not 'on par'. As far as "arguably DPOTY", he was in New York and playing for a team being hyped as a Super Bowl team. Meanwhile, defensive players all over the league were having much better seasons.

Jenkins' 'strength' is also his weakness. He's toting 360 lbs around, so he's a load to run against head on. However, he's toting 360 lbs around, so he wears out if you make him move on wider running plays. Would he look better if the Jets could bring in an adequate sub for him and give him a rest? Probably, but we don't know that for certain. Would he look better if he got to know Jenny Craig? In the 4-3 he looked better when he was in better shape and lighter, absolutely. Ballooning weight in the offseason was an issue there. In the 3-4, who knows? This could be the best he'll be, or he could play better lighter.

However, until he shows that he can play a full season without wearing down because he's dragging around too many pounds, I'm not going to put him in the group with the other top 3-4 NTs. It's nothing personal, because he was often an absolute beast in the 4-3.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Jenkins is 29 thats not old in my book. I dont know about his vaunted wear down history that you all claim to be experts on so I wont comment on that. I know that for 11 weeks of football he was clearly the best DT in football. That alone puts him in Wilforks class.

The guy is 360 pounds with a history of knee and shoulder injuries. The knee ones, if you're a Jets fan, are particular worrisome. Age is borderline irrelevant when you're a mammoth guy with bad knees and poor conditioning. You saw it this year, and you'll see it again next year. The fact that the guy will wear down and be a JAG by the last third of the season puts him out of Wilfork's class. BTW, he wasn't the best DT in football anyways.

Last year wasn't an anomaly. There's a reason why the Panthers gave up the "best DT in the NFL" for a third and a fifth. He wears down every single year because he's a huge, poorly conditioned man. He's worn out every year, and will continue to wear down every year.

I will accept Lito as a? however it must be said that Springs and Leigh Bodden are bigger ?'s. Springs b/c of age and production drop off and Bodden b/c he hasnt done jack ish to live up to his potential and was cut by a winless team. Lito was benched primarily because a) Samuel came in b) his contract beef and c) he lost a step. Can he still be good is to be seen. I still know that there is a top 5 corner on the other side of him next year.

a is irrelevant in regards to the fact that Joselio Hanson passed him on the DC. I can accept falling behind Samuel and Brown, because they're very good CBs. But Hanson? He may very well become good, but if he's already better than Sheppard, that's a problem. C is a problem. As for B, do you honestly think that the Eagles, making a push to and through the playoffs, are going to bury a guy on the bench because he doesn't like his contract? Of course not, that's ridiculous. You field the best lineup that you can with the guys available. The contract beef is a valid reason to get a guy off your roster, but as long as he's on your roster he's playing if he deserves to.

Bottom line, any time you ask a team's #4 CB to step in and be your uncontested #2 CB, that's a major risk, especially when that other team's #3 CB was decent at best.

Springs is a bigger question mark, I'll freely admit. Bodden is perfectly explainable: he was a pure man-to-man CB in a cover 2 system. The fact that the Lions had to cut him is just further proof that they're inept at talent evaluation. And even if one of them does absolutely nothing for us, we're still fine at CB IMO.

 

[K-Ro 25]

The guy is 360 pounds with a history of knee and shoulder injuries. The knee ones, if you're a Jets fan, are particular worrisome. Age is borderline irrelevant when you're a mammoth guy with bad knees and poor conditioning. You saw it this year, and you'll see it again next year. The fact that the guy will wear down and be a JAG by the last third of the season puts him out of Wilfork's class. BTW, he wasn't the best DT in football anyways.

Last year wasn't an anomaly. There's a reason why the Panthers gave up the "best DT in the NFL" for a third and a fifth. He wears down every single year because he's a huge, poorly conditioned man. He's worn out every year, and will continue to wear down every year.

I am in no way disguising he wears down or has a track record of it and the impact of it. But for 11 weeks of football he was the definition of beast and was clearly on Wilforks level if not better. I highly disagree on the way everyone dismisses his pro bowl year because he tailed off towards the end. Knowing what I know from last year I still would take his production for a full year b/c of him alone we were a top 5 run D for the better part of the season. That can not be disputed.

a is irrelevant in regards to the fact that Joselio Hanson passed him on the DC. I can accept falling behind Samuel and Brown, because they're very good CBs. But Hanson? He may very well become good, but if he's already better than Sheppard, that's a problem. C is a problem. As for B, do you honestly think that the Eagles, making a push to and through the playoffs, are going to bury a guy on the bench because he doesn't like his contract? Of course not, that's ridiculous. You field the best lineup that you can with the guys available. The contract beef is a valid reason to get a guy off your roster, but as long as he's on your roster he's playing if he deserves to.

Bottom line, any time you ask a team's #4 CB to step in and be your uncontested #2 CB, that's a major risk, especially when that other team's #3 CB was decent at best.

Springs is a bigger question mark, I'll freely admit. Bodden is perfectly explainable: he was a pure man-to-man CB in a cover 2 system. The fact that the Lions had to cut him is just further proof that they're inept at talent evaluation. And even if one of them does absolutely nothing for us, we're still fine at CB IMO.

Watching the eagles a vast majority i am actually am a Lito doubter coming into the year. he relies upon physical tools too much for me. I just feel the Jets having Revis and a foundation at CB is way more then the Pats can go into 09 with as a lock for production in the secondary

 

[BradyFTW!]

I am in no way disguising he wears down or has a track record of it and the impact of it. But for 11 weeks of football he was the definition of beast and was clearly on Wilforks level if not better. I highly disagree on the way everyone dismisses his pro bowl year because he tailed off towards the end. Knowing what I know from last year I still would take his production for a full year b/c of him alone we were a top 5 run D for the better part of the season. That can not be disputed.

I agree that he was as good as Wilfork when he was healthy, and I'll even go a step further and say that he was probably a little better. A primary reason why, though, is because he's carrying 30-40 extra pounds on him, so I don't think you can separate his impact when healthy from the fact that huge guys, with rare exceptions, tend to wear down.

The problem with guys that wear down over the course of the season is shown only marginally in the regular season. The real problem is what would have happened if the Jets had made the playoffs. Which Jenkins would have shown up? The worn-down JAG, obviously. So sure, there's still a ton to be said for the fact that Jenkins is a hell of a player for the first two thirds of the season, but when he consistently runs out of gas by the end of the season and playoffs, it's a significant mark against him, which is why I'd put him significantly below Wilfork. If the Jets had any real NT depth, this wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem as it will be.

Watching the eagles a vast majority i am actually am a Lito doubter coming into the year. he relies upon physical tools too much for me. I just feel the Jets having Revis and a foundation at CB is way more then the Pats can go into 09 with as a lock for production in the secondary

When I did my breakdown earlier in this thread, I put the Jets at #1 in the division at both CB and S, so I do agree with you. Revis is the best CB in the division, and it's not even close. By the same token, though, I think that the Pats will be significantly better at CB #2 (which could end up being Springs, Wheatley, or Wilhite), CB #3, and CB #4. The talent gap in #1 CBs is substantial enough, though, that I'd still put the Jets ahead.

As for safety, Rhodes is better than Meriweather (who is a natural FS) and Leonhard is better than Sanders (by a lesser margin than most people probably think, but still clearly better). I prefer the Pats' depth guys, mostly Pat Chung, but there's no denying that the Jets' starting secondary is significantly better than the Pats'.

All in all, it's pretty much the same story as with the Jets team as a whole: the starting lineup is pretty good, but you guys aren't built to withstand injuries, which is why I can't see you winning more than 6 or 7 games. If you get lucky and your guys stay healthy, that could certainly change though.

 

[K-Ro 25]

I agree that he was as good as Wilfork when he was healthy, and I'll even go a step further and say that he was probably a little better. A primary reason why, though, is because he's carrying 30-40 extra pounds on him, so I don't think you can separate his impact when healthy from the fact that huge guys, with rare exceptions, tend to wear down.

The problem with guys that wear down over the course of the season is shown only marginally in the regular season. The real problem is what would have happened if the Jets had made the playoffs. Which Jenkins would have shown up? The worn-down JAG, obviously. So sure, there's still a ton to be said for the fact that Jenkins is a hell of a player for the first two thirds of the season, but when he consistently runs out of gas by the end of the season and playoffs, it's a significant mark against him, which is why I'd put him significantly below Wilfork. If the Jets had any real NT depth, this wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem as it will be.

I can buy all the reasons stated for why Wilfork is better. You raise an excellent point on the Jets lack of d-line depth. that is going to kill them this year as well.

The big boy likes to eat and im fine w/ his slim 360 lb's

When I did my breakdown earlier in this thread, I put the Jets at #1 in the division at both CB and S, so I do agree with you. Revis is the best CB in the division, and it's not even close. By the same token, though, I think that the Pats will be significantly better at CB #2 (which could end up being Springs, Wheatley, or Wilhite), CB #3, and CB #4. The talent gap in #1 CBs is substantial enough, though, that I'd still put the Jets ahead.

As for safety, Rhodes is better than Meriweather (who is a natural FS) and Leonhard is better than Sanders (by a lesser margin than most people probably think, but still clearly better). I prefer the Pats' depth guys, mostly Pat Chung, but there's no denying that the Jets' starting secondary is significantly better than the Pats'.

All in all, it's pretty much the same story as with the Jets team as a whole: the starting lineup is pretty good, but you guys aren't built to withstand injuries, which is why I can't see you winning more than 6 or 7 games. If you get lucky and your guys stay healthy, that could certainly change though.

lol I pretty much agreed with every word you said in this post. I have us 6-10 possibly 7-9. I just see depth as such of a concern at every position on this team except RB, and DB on this team. If this doesnt prove that im not a homer or at least a big one lol, we could seriously lose one of 12 players and have nothing to be considered a viable or adequate replacement. Im interested to see if Lowery wins this open challenge out right now for the #2 corner spot that Ryan has put between him and Lito. We may only win 6 or 7 games but the maturation of Sanchez will be the factor which paints the season positively or in a negative light

 

[BradyFTW!]

I can buy all the reasons stated for why Wilfork is better. You raise an excellent point on the Jets lack of d-line depth. that is going to kill them this year as well.

The big boy likes to eat and im fine w/ his slim 360 lb's


lol I pretty much agreed with every word you said in this post. I have us 6-10 possibly 7-9. I just see depth as such of a concern at every position on this team except RB, and DB on this team. If this doesnt prove that im not a homer or at least a big one lol, we could seriously lose one of 12 players and have nothing to be considered a viable or adequate replacement. Im interested to see if Lowery wins this open challenge out right now for the #2 corner spot that Ryan has put between him and Lito. We may only win 6 or 7 games but the maturation of Sanchez will be the factor which paints the season positively or in a negative light

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. It's hard to accurately predict where the Jets will end up, because so much of it hinges on health. With the best teams out there, you can at least say that even if they suffer injuries, they'll be able to sub/scheme around it. It's like how the Pats can lose anyone except Brady and still be largely okay. With the Jets, you almost have to assume that they will lose at least a couple of those 12 guys, which knocks the team down quite a bit. If they get a little unlucky and lose a couple more, they could easily be a 3-4 win team. I think you're approaching it with the right outlook though, which is that this year is to get Sanchez some experience, see what (if anything) you have in Gholston, and figure out how to get some decent WRs on your roster.

 

[Ring 6]

What are you doing here man, right at the end? Are you attacking me for worrying about our defense?

Lets clear a few things up anyways. First of all and you know quite well why Lito Sheppard was benched last year, its because they paid out the big bucks for Asante. Its not like the guy suddenly lost form or anything.
The way you try to make us believe that he was benched becuase he was not good really sounds like a homer. FFS I'm trying to objective about it and you are knocking me and saying I should be objective and then you come out with that bull**** about Sheppard.

In my first post I said that on paper you would have to say the Jets look stronger but that we have a lot of promising guys and I'd expect us to be the better defense.
You rattle on about us only losing two starters.
Rodney Harrison was a starter last year
Mike Vrabel was a starter last year
Ellis Hobbs was a starter last year
We still have Tedy but is he still up to it?

So I'm looking at four starters that have to be replaced.
Bodden had a bad year in a bad team last year. Does that mean he is finished? Hell no it doesn't but it means that he has to prove himself this season.
Shawn Springs has been injured or hurt for most of the last couple of years. So will he stay fit is the big question. Clearly when fit he is and exceptional corner.
I know we have younger players there too, but again we have to see improve in them before we can say they are good enough.

Look my point here is that when you just look at the starting Ds on paper, the jets to me have the more complete looking outfit.
I'm not saying that I expect them to be better than us, I'm just saying that at this time there are a lot of worries in key positions for us.

And I hope you are right in your analysis of the Jets, I love nothing better than seeing them getting their asses whooped week in week out.

I am saying you say the Patriots have questions but dont recognize the Jets have the same ones.
I said 3 starters. Vrabel, Hobbs, ONeil. (I said 2 or 3 depending on how you consider Woods, who became a starter) Harrison was hurt most of the year.
The Jets have 4 new starters, but you dont think that means questions.

Lito Sheppard wasn't benched because they fell into Samuel they PURSUED Samuel in order to replace Shappard. And Sheppard didnt fall to third, he fell to 4th. See, even without Samuel he was benched.

How is RDE not a quesiton for the Jets? How is Sheppard not? How is Leonhard, being a started for the first time ever (he did start last year but after injuries) and how does playing a 5'8' safety not make yuo question whether he can play.
See this is what I mean, your tone is negatively slanted toward the Pats and positively slanted toward the Jets:
You call Leonhard GOOD and Meriwhether 'decent'. Explain that?
You call the Jets mediocre to inept (Gholston) OLB corp 'clearly better' than ours. Explain that? Is AD medicore? Or does he not count because he had an injury?
Lito Sheppard is gone only because they forgot they had him, paid Samuel then decided they had to make him the 4th corner then let him go, but Springs is an injury waiting to happen and Bodden must stink because he was on a bad team. At least he started.

How do you account for the fact that the Jets lost 4 quality starters off last years team, and how that will create questions in cohesion of the unit? How do you account for the change of coaches and systems? Or is it assumed they will be better just because?

Here is an honest question for you.
The Jets have 4 neew starters replacing 4 old starters.
Douglass for Coleman
Scott for Barton
Leonhard for Elam
Sheppard for Law

Do you think those are upgrades, downgrades or pushes?
I see 2 definite downgrades (Coleman and Elam) one moderate upgrade (Scott) and i push Sheppard/Law.(but this could be an upgrade if sheppard has anything left)

 

[BradyFTW!]

I can buy all the reasons stated for why Wilfork is better. You raise an excellent point on the Jets lack of d-line depth. that is going to kill them this year as well.

The big boy likes to eat and im fine w/ his slim 360 lb's


lol I pretty much agreed with every word you said in this post. I have us 6-10 possibly 7-9. I just see depth as such of a concern at every position on this team except RB, and DB on this team. If this doesnt prove that im not a homer or at least a big one lol, we could seriously lose one of 12 players and have nothing to be considered a viable or adequate replacement. Im interested to see if Lowery wins this open challenge out right now for the #2 corner spot that Ryan has put between him and Lito. We may only win 6 or 7 games but the maturation of Sanchez will be the factor which paints the season positively or in a negative light

I agree that that'll be an interesting battle, and I don't think it would even be a major upset if Lowery beat out Lito. Really just depends on how much Lito's lost in the last few years. I'd assume a lot, since he couldn't get snaps ahead of Hanson, but he might surprise.

 

[K-Ro 25]

How do you account for the fact that the Jets lost 4 quality starters off last years team, and how that will create questions in cohesion of the unit? How do you account for the change of coaches and systems? Or is it assumed they will be better just because?

Here is an honest question for you.
The Jets have 4 neew starters replacing 4 old starters.
Douglass for Coleman
Scott for Barton
Leonhard for Elam
Sheppard for Law

Do you think those are upgrades, downgrades or pushes?
I see 2 definite downgrades (Coleman and Elam) one moderate upgrade (Scott) and i push Sheppard/Law.(but this could be an upgrade if sheppard has anything left)

Your hating on the Jets a little too much here. Coleman and Douglas is a push b/c Coleman was god awful, how much worse could Douglas be. I disagree on Leonhard being a downgrade b/c Elam was very vulnerableto getting beat deep and not wrapping up. Leonhard if anything is an upgrade b/c he is very familiar in the D and showed a lot as a part time safety last year. Granted he will have to go full time and that is a ? but Abram Elam is nothing to cry over. Law and Lito is an obvious upgrade. If Lito can run that alone show a blatant upgrade. Barton and Scott is a noticeable upgrade as well. Scott can cover the TE, knows the system, and is a way better blitzer/ run support LB. Do you honestly see little difference in Eric Barton and Bart Scott?

Lol at your four quality starters line. Maybe 2 at most. Coleman was trash and Law couldnt cover a paper bag. I liked Elam and Barton was solid

 

[Ring 6]

Your hating on the Jets a little too much here. Coleman and Douglas is a push b/c Coleman was god awful, how much worse could Douglas be. I disagree on Leonhard being a downgrade b/c Elam was very vulnerableto getting beat deep and not wrapping up. Leonhard if anything is an upgrade b/c he is very familiar in the D and showed a lot as a part time safety last year. Granted he will have to go full time and that is a ? but Abram Elam is nothing to cry over. Law and Lito is an obvious upgrade. If Lito can run that alone show a blatant upgrade. Barton and Scott is a noticeable upgrade as well. Scott can cover the TE, knows the system, and is a way better blitzer/ run support LB. Do you honestly see little difference in Eric Barton and Bart Scott?

Lol at your four quality starters line. Maybe 2 at most. Coleman was trash and Law couldnt cover a paper bag. I liked Elam and Barton was solid

Coleman was a 2gap run defender. (Your the Jets are good because of 5 guys mentality shows here.) Douglas is tiny for a 34 DE and has never been effective.
Leonhard is a 5'8" career backup who got on the field last year due to injury. Elam actually played very well for your team last year, particularly in run support. Good luck with a 58 190 run supporter.
Barton was your leading tackler and an underrated player. Scott is the most overrated FA acquisition of this season. He is undisciplined and was a piece surrounded by much better players in Bmore. Flashy and loud instead of steady and quiet is an upgrade to the media, not the football team. Scott has more physical ability so its an upgrade but not a large one.
Sheppard as I said probably is an upgrade but he played himself off the field in Philly. At least Law was smart even if slow.

Again, naming 3 good players has nothing to do with having a quality unit. Go ahead and overlook 4/11ths of your defense because they arent name players. Tannenbaum did. Watch for the results.
This is abslutely a philosophical difference between the way the Jets and Pats build (and what I and you believe). The Jets trade away 3 starting players to move up in the draft. Solid role playing starters. Sign a few flashy names, have no depth, don't win.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Your hating on the Jets a little too much here. Coleman and Douglas is a push b/c Coleman was god awful, how much worse could Douglas be. I disagree on Leonhard being a downgrade b/c Elam was very vulnerableto getting beat deep and not wrapping up. Leonhard if anything is an upgrade b/c he is very familiar in the D and showed a lot as a part time safety last year. Granted he will have to go full time and that is a ? but Abram Elam is nothing to cry over. Law and Lito is an obvious upgrade. If Lito can run that alone show a blatant upgrade. Barton and Scott is a noticeable upgrade as well. Scott can cover the TE, knows the system, and is a way better blitzer/ run support LB. Do you honestly see little difference in Eric Barton and Bart Scott?

Lol at your four quality starters line. Maybe 2 at most. Coleman was trash and Law couldnt cover a paper bag. I liked Elam and Barton was solid

Agreed- Elam, Law and Coleman were hardly quality, and the only reason why they lost Barton as a starter is because the upgraded in a big way. Not exactly an objective analysis there. I'm not sure how much they improve, or even if they improve at all, in some cases, with the new guys, but none of those are downgrades IMO.

 

[K-Ro 25]

Coleman was a 2gap run defender. (Your the Jets are good because of 5 guys mentality shows here.) Douglas is tiny for a 34 DE and has never been effective.
Leonhard is a 5'8" career backup who got on the field last year due to injury. Elam actually played very well for your team last year, particularly in run support. Good luck with a 58 190 run supporter.
Barton was your leading tackler and an underrated player. Scott is the most overrated FA acquisition of this season. He is undisciplined and was a piece surrounded by much better players in Bmore. Flashy and loud instead of steady and quiet is an upgrade to the media, not the football team. Scott has more physical ability so its an upgrade but not a large one.
Sheppard as I said probably is an upgrade but he played himself off the field in Philly. At least Law was smart even if slow.

Again, naming 3 good players has nothing to do with having a quality unit. Go ahead and overlook 4/11ths of your defense because they arent name players. Tannenbaum did. Watch for the results.
This is abslutely a philosophical difference between the way the Jets and Pats build (and what I and you believe). The Jets trade away 3 starting players to move up in the draft. Solid role playing starters. Sign a few flashy names, have no depth, don't win.

Once again if all these players were still on the Jets you would be killing them as scrubs. Coleman is a bum, there is simply no other way to put how bad he is and how much he gets blown off the LOS

Barton is not comparable to Bart Scott. One makes plays the other makes tackles 5 yards after the LOS.

Elam is a big hitter and I like him but Leonhard showed playmaking ability when thrusted into action. The guy isnt a 30 + year old journey man, he is a 26 yr old player who showed a lot of ability last year. Your only point against him is that he is 5'8. Besides that you can not tell me anything about Leonhard.

Law vs Lito doesnt deserve a mention. If you cant see an upgrade there I dont know what to say.

You lost me on the end. Im not naming 4 players im just combating a post you said earlier when you said the Jets lost 4 quality players when that is laughable. law and Coleman were terrible, Barton was serviceable as was Elam

 

[Ring 6]

Once again if all these players were still on the Jets you would be killing them as scrubs. Coleman is a bum, there is simply no other way to put how bad he is and how much he gets blown off the LOS

Barton is not comparable to Bart Scott. One makes plays the other makes tackles 5 yards after the LOS.

Elam is a big hitter and I like him but Leonhard showed playmaking ability when thrusted into action. The guy isnt a 30 + year old journey man, he is a 26 yr old player who showed a lot of ability last year. Your only point against him is that he is 5'8. Besides that you can not tell me anything about Leonhard.

You lost me on the end. Im not naming 4 players im just combating a post you said earlier when you said the Jets lost 4 quality players when that is laughable. law and Coleman were terrible, Barton was serviceable as was Elam

So now your answer is telling me what i think?
The last thing a Patriot fan would overlook is a run stopping 2gap DE like Coleman. If he is so bad, why did Mangini bring him to Cleveland? See Bobby Hamiliton, see unsung team player.
Barton was a very good player last year. Scott is a flashy loud mouth, OK you win thats what wins games.
Leonhard is a JAG. He couldn't start for the Bills, he wouldnt have started in Bmore. He is undersized at a position where that matters. What is it that you want to tell me about him? "He's a playmaker" Yeah, good one. Do you really think being 58 and 190lbs is not an issue?

I get that you think Scott is great. I disagree. Regardless he is replacing a player who played well so the massive upgrade doesnt strike me.
Leonard is a JAG, Douglass a journeyman.
Sheppard was benched.
I see 3 (Law wasnt there for the whole season) guys who played all season and contributed to your team. I dont know how you have upgraded them.
You are ripping Coleman, do you really think Douglass is a good starting DE?
I'll drop the Scott argument because we clearly have a very different opinion of him, and will never agree.
You cant really tell me you would go out of your way to trade Elam to get Leonhard. (I wouldn't trade that straight up, but you are calling it an upgrade for Gods sake)
You must admit that Lito Sheppard could be a complete disaster since he lost his job and may have lost his ability.

I see Jags replacing Jags, and a change at ILB to a position that was already one of your 3-4 best players on the defense.

 

[K-Ro 25]

So now your answer is telling me what i think?
The last thing a Patriot fan would overlook is a run stopping 2gap DE like Coleman. If he is so bad, why did Mangini bring him to Cleveland? See Bobby Hamiliton, see unsung team player.
Barton was a very good player last year. Scott is a flashy loud mouth, OK you win thats what wins games.
Leonhard is a JAG. He couldn't start for the Bills, he wouldnt have started in Bmore. He is undersized at a position where that matters. What is it that you want to tell me about him? "He's a playmaker" Yeah, good one. Do you really think being 58 and 190lbs is not an issue?

I get that you think Scott is great. I disagree. Regardless he is replacing a player who played well so the massive upgrade doesnt strike me.
Leonard is a JAG, Douglass a journeyman.
Sheppard was benched.
I see 3 (Law wasnt there for the whole season) guys who played all season and contributed to your team. I dont know how you have upgraded them.
You are ripping Coleman, do you really think Douglass is a good starting DE?
I'll drop the Scott argument because we clearly have a very different opinion of him, and will never agree.
You cant really tell me you would go out of your way to trade Elam to get Leonhard. (I wouldn't trade that straight up, but you are calling it an upgrade for Gods sake)
You must admit that Lito Sheppard could be a complete disaster since he lost his job and may have lost his ability.

I see Jags replacing Jags, and a change at ILB to a position that was already one of your 3-4 best players on the defense.

Why such hostility? No I am not telling you how you think. I am using a direct quote from a post you made above where you stated the Jets lost 4 quality starters

I enjoy posting here and want to be respectful and this will not end well b/c I disagree w/ nearly everything you say. Im going to respectfully say this and we can go our separate ways and disagree.

If you watched Coleman play for one season you would realize how bad he is. He was probably going to be cut to indicate how little we thought of him. I dont have any expectation of Douglas, however he cant possible do any worse the Coleman who generated 0 push @ the LOS. Why mangini traded for him? I have np clue and dont really venture to guess. Coleman has been stealing money and I am glad we got rid of him, even though it wasone year too late in my estimation

Wow at how highly you think of Eric Barton. Check his tackle for loss stats. He is a one dimensional player who can not cover the TE, is an above average blitzer, solid in the run game. Nothing special but serviceable. Scott is obviously a better player

Leonhard. If you look past his height to see he was a difference maker for B'more. He isnt a stud but he is a solid player. He had an exceptional playoff game vs the Phins and played well for them last season. He knows the system and thrived in it last year which you can not be that blind to see. Besides height I take it you have not see him play much. Im not making him all world but he will be a solid player. At the worst he can be a guide for the secondary players to pick up the system. Same goes for Douglas and the d-line.

 

[Ring 6]

Why such hostility? No I am not telling you how you think. I am using a direct quote from a post you made above where you stated the Jets lost 4 quality starters

I enjoy posting here and want to be respectful and this will not end well b/c I disagree w/ nearly everything you say. Im going to respectfully say this and we can go our separate ways and disagree.

If you watched Coleman play for one season you would realize how bad he is. He was probably going to be cut to indicate how little we thought of him. I dont have any expectation of Douglas, however he cant possible do any worse the Coleman who generated 0 push @ the LOS. Why mangini traded for him? I have np clue and dont really venture to guess. Coleman has been stealing money and I am glad we got rid of him, even though it wasone year too late in my estimation

Wow at how highly you think of Eric Barton. Check his tackle for loss stats. He is a one dimensional player who can not cover the TE, is an above average blitzer, solid in the run game. Nothing special but serviceable. Scott is obviously a better player

Leonhard. If you look past his height to see he was a difference maker for B'more. He isnt a stud but he is a solid player. He had an exceptional playoff game vs the Phins and played well for them last season. He knows the system and thrived in it last year which you can not be that blind to see. Besides height I take it you have not see him play much. Im not making him all world but he will be a solid player. At the worst he can be a guide for the secondary players to pick up the system. Same goes for Douglas and the d-line.

After 3 years of Eric Mangini, you still dont understand a 2gap defense?
Colemans job isnt to get push. His job is to engage the blocker.
Bartons job is not to get tackles for loss, his job is to stay home at the los and take on the G. Barton IIRC had 90 tackles last year and Bart Scott had 60. I dont put a lot of stock in tackle stats, but thats what they were IIRC.

I just cant believe we are arguing that JAG Leonhard was a DIFFERENCE MAKER in Bmores defense. That is bizarre to me.
When oyu have to defend the player by saying he knows the system all talk of upgrade should cease.

So to get this straight you think there is a significant difference between Leonhard and Elam and that change alone makes the Jets a better defensive team? Just want to have tha answer so I can understand the rules for when we discuss the Patriots and what claims I can make without anything more than hope.

 

[Ring 6]

Why such hostility? No I am not telling you how you think. I am using a direct quote from a post you made above where you stated the Jets lost 4 quality starters

.

You said that if those players were still on the Jets I'd be saying they suck.
That is either saying you kow what I think or I am lying. Actually it is saying both.
I don't go for those lame tactics.