Belichick's record without Brady since the Brady era began

[amfootball]

I don't know. I think it matters. I like to think Belichick is on par with a guy like Phil Jackson who won titles in Chicago and LA with a variation on the same offense, a similar culture and lots of great players. He doesn't have to win a SB, but another appearance or two in the AFCC with Mac Jones would do the trick. This team can get there if they keep their current play up.

Parcells did it with SB appearances with the Giants and the Patriots. It would be great for BB to take a non-Brady team to the big game.

I agree. It matters to Bill for sure especially with Brady winning last year. I think if he can win a SB without Brady that will greatly enhance his coaching legacy. How could it not. It did wonders for Brady.

 

[moosekill]

There are two or three things I am pretty sure of. I could have coached the 86 Celtics or a number of the bulls teams and won championships with them.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

There are two or three things I am pretty sure of. I could have coached the 86 Celtics or a number of the bulls teams and won championships with them.

Nah. It took a lot of skill on both the GM side and coaching side to create these iconic teams. They don't happen by accident, especially multi-winners. Red created multiple winning Celtics teams going back from Bill Russell, and then completely re-inventing the Big Three with Bird, McHale, Parish. This is not an accident. Same with the Bulls, OK there's some luck since Krause did nothing before or after, but Phil Jackson turned MJ and Pippen + Grant/Rodman into a dynasty, and then did the same with the Lakers.

There is absolutely an element of elite coaching or GM work in these teams. It's not just blind luck.

 

[moosekill]

Basketball is different than football. I didn’t say I could have been the gm, but I could have coached them well enough.

 

[Wozzy]

I never understood how a fan of our team could be so negative toward our coach...especially the greatest coach of all time....just doesn't make sense to me....I guess they would rather jump ship and root for another team which is fine, but why then stay on a Patriot fan site.

Because he gives the cold shoulder to the media, doesn't give opponent's any competitive advantage by disclosing information he doesn't have to, because he's frugal, believes in spending on the "middle class" on his roster, believes in special teams... because he gave tough love to the sacred cow QB while he was here because that's exactly what he needed to perform at his peak, whether he liked it or not.

There's probably a fair amount of media members embedded here to create content and create storylines where there aren't any... otherwise there's a bunch of rubes who read and believe the most negative media trolls in national sports. F them.

We're great because of Bill, he drafted Tom, he drafted Mac, he put great teams around the QB for two decades in a league designed to create parity. These "fans" are entitled or QB fanboys... they pretend to know football, but don't really know much.

 

[ashley]

Spot on. What this season has proven as compared to last is Bill needs good QBing just like every other HC/GM.

Yes, that's why I thought last year was one of his best coaching jobs of his career...with horrible qb play and lacking talent, he was able to get us to 7 wins...I know people are saying this year is one of his best jobs, but for me, last year was a m miracle that we won 7 games.

 

[Wozzy]

Eh I don't see any anti-BB crowd. Other than maybe one poster but he hasn't posted in a while.

They never recognize themselves, generally they complain how he sucks ad nauseam while telling us out the other side of their mouth how much they love the guy. They have no clue how difficult juggling a roster is in the most chaotic sport on the planet where the average career lasts three years. They believe every draft pick has to work or the guy sucks, regardless of actual results or how good the team on the field is. These people are clueless about football, about as much as their own negativity.

 

[Kasmir]

They never recognize themselves, generally they complain how he sucks ad nauseam while telling us out the other side of their mouth how much they love the guy. They have no clue how difficult juggling a roster is in the most chaotic sport on the planet where the average career lasts three years. They believe every draft pick has to work or the guy sucks, regardless of actual results or how good the team on the field is. These people are clueless about football, about as much as their own negativity.

I think it's best to let them back on the bandwagon.

 

[Wozzy]

I think it's best to let them back on the bandwagon.

Doesn't matter, they'll pretend they never left... or told us how horrible Bill was at his job a thousand times this offseason.

What the world really needs is one more N'Keal Harry thread...

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

It's tough, because Belichick is a great coach. But the issue is that even if you play nice and only start counting since 2001... his overall accomplishments in that sample don't point to him being "THE GOAT". 11-5 with Matt Cassel and 7-4 with Mac Jones are the highlights in that sample, but that is that more impressive than freaking Rex Ryan taking Mark Sanchez and the New York Jets to the AFC Championship or bum ass Matt Nagy taking Mitchell Trubisky to a 12-4 record and playoff birth.

In short, he needs to win a ring, because A) Belichick is such a unique coach in that we have a decent sample size before, during, and after Brady, that isn't that great, and B) we've seen Brady win a ring without him. We've rarely seen that before with a coach QB duo.

To finish up, Belichick is a great coach, but him being the GOAT is still debatable, because I think it has become clear that his success and his system is very contigent on a very specific QB archetype with a high floor. One could say any coach needs a good QB, but then that would hurt Belichick's case even more. We've seen other coaches achieve things with QBs that aren't even that good at all. Belichick had Brady for 20 years.

Based on how good Mac is, I think Belichick has to win at least a 1 ring with him.

 

[sb1]

It's tough, because Belichick is a great coach. But the issue is that even if you play nice and only start counting since 2001... his overall accomplishments in that sample don't point to him being "THE GOAT". 11-5 with Matt Cassel and 7-4 with Mac Jones are the highlights in that sample, but that is that more impressive than freaking Rex Ryan taking Mark Sanchez and the New York Jets to the AFC Championship or bum ass Matt Nagy taking Mitchell Trubisky to a 12-4 record and playoff birth.

In short, he needs to win a ring, because A) Belichick is such a unique coach in that we have a decent sample size before, during, and after Brady, that isn't that great, and B) we've seen Brady win a ring without him. We've rarely seen that before with a coach QB duo.

To finish up, Belichick is a great coach, but him being the GOAT is still debatable, because I think it has become clear that his success and his system is very contigent on a very specific QB archetype with a high floor. One could say any coach needs a good QB, but then that would hurt Belichick's case even more. We've seen other coaches achieve things with QBs that aren't even that good at all. Belichick had Brady for 20 years.

Based on how good Mac is, I think Belichick has to win at least a 1 ring with him.

As I've argued before unless you use rings (which are a team accomplishment not an individual accomplishment) it's too hard to say one way or the other that BB is for sure the greatest coach of all time. Other than rings there's no benchmark or measurement that definitively says Bill is greater or worse than Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Paul Brown, Bill Walsh or any of the all time greats. With QB's there is a way but for coaches it's much harder.

But he's one of the all time great coaches. That's a fact not opinion. He doesn't need a ring without Brady to prove that, it's already been proven.

 

[holyredeemer]

I read the first page and then gave up. This is just stupid. There is no comparison. Plain and simple. As if Brady surrounded Belichick with the talent he had around him through so many years. 2000? Give me a break. The man came in and started cleaning house. It was clearly a rebuild year. Yeah, let’s say he is a **** coach for that.
You just cannot compare his record with and without. He built the roster around Brady. He built unbelievable defenses around Brady. He slowly brought Brady along and allowed him to play to his strengths. He played the salary cap. He played the coaches getting taken, the roster getting cleaned out, year after ****ing year. Bill is an incredible ****ing coach/GM and I wouldn’t take anyone else who has ever coached the game during the salary cap era.
Brady is the GOAT QB. I wouldn’t take anyone over him. Period. We were so damn lucky that the stars aligned and these 2 came together when they did. Brady has continued his success. Good for him. He’s gone. Bill is continuing to rebuild the roster, and appears to be turning around the corner faster than any of us anticipated. Brady isn’t making this team better. Bill is.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

As I've argued before unless you use rings (which are a team accomplishment not an individual accomplishment) it's too hard to say one way or the other that BB is for sure the greatest coach of all time. Other than rings there's no benchmark or measurement that definitively says Bill is greater or worse than Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Paul Brown, Bill Walsh or any of the all time greats. With QB's there is a way but for coaches it's much harder.

But he's one of the all time great coaches. That's a fact not opinion. He doesn't need a ring without Brady to prove that, it's already been proven.

Yet, you will run your mouth constantly about how Brady won the Super Bowl last year by himself..now when it comes to Bill super bowls are a team accomplishment.

 

[thebooradley]

Belichick can consistently build a competitive roster in the salary cap era like no coach in history, and there is no doubt he's an all time great coach. The question for me is, would he have been given time to show what a great coach he is if Brady has not come along in 2001.

Brady was always the icing on the cake, he would make an average team a good team... a good team a great team... and a great team an all-time great team.

Lumping in the Cleveland years with now to make the point Belichick is under 500 without Brady, as some do, is like judging Paul McCartney as an artist in his entirety by combining Beatles, Wings and solo recordings.

 

[sb1]

Belichick can consistently build a competitive roster in the salary cap era like no coach in history, and there is no doubt he's an all time great coach. The question for me is, would he have been given time to show what a great coach he is if Brady has not come along in 2001.

Brady was always the icing on the cake, he would make an average team a good team... a good team a great team... and a great team an all-time great team.

Lumping in the Cleveland years with now to make the point Belichick is under 500 without Brady, as some do, is like judging Paul McCartney as an artist in his entirety by combining Beatles, Wings and solo recordings.

The Pats gave up a haul to get Belichick from the Jets. If Brady didn’t come along and if the Pats continued on the path they were on I think they’d probably give BB some time but not unlimited time.

 

[sb1]

Yet, you will run your mouth constantly about how Brady won the Super Bowl last year by himself..now when it comes to Bill super bowls are a team accomplishment.

Both are true.

Brady’s arrival single-handedly turned the Bucs from an also-ran into champions. That’s not debatable.

All time great players have that impact on a team. All time great coaches don’t.

If you don’t count rings there’s no argument to be made that Belichick is a greater or worse coach than Lombardi or any of the all time great coaches. Rings are a team stat so should we really use them to measure a coach’s greatness? that was my point.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Both are true.

Brady’s arrival single-handedly turned the Bucs into champions from an also-ran. That’s not debatable.

All time great players have that impact on a team. All time great coaches don’t.

If you don’t count rings there’s no argument to be made that Belichick is a greater or worse coach than Lombardi or any of the all time great coaches. Rings are a team stat so should we really use them to measure a coach’s greatness? that was my point.

Yep, Brady was the most important piece to the Bucs last year. He took everything he learned from Belichick to Tampa and won the SB.

 

[BTTA]

There are two or three things I am pretty sure of. I could have coached the 86 Celtics or a number of the bulls teams and won championships with them.

Have you watched the documentary? Jones had to challenge and work those guys hard at times, and his use of various lineups showed a lot of wisdom.

 

[Brotherblues]

Why dont they count 2000? Brady was on the team. Bill was the coach and brady was on the team, seems like that should count. I guess if people want to ignore 18 games Bill was coach and Brady was not starting and not count that, then we can just change anything we want. Bill as the head coach of the patriots without Brady starting at QB is 33-32....thats his record on the patritos as the head coach when someone besides Brady is starting.

To me 2k was kinda like 2020 in that is was a reset year. It was all the Pete Carrol players.

 

[amfootball]

Belichick can consistently build a competitive roster in the salary cap era like no coach in history, and there is no doubt he's an all time great coach. The question for me is, would he have been given time to show what a great coach he is if Brady has not come along in 2001.

Brady was always the icing on the cake, he would make an average team a good team... a good team a great team... and a great team an all-time great team.

Lumping in the Cleveland years with now to make the point Belichick is under 500 without Brady, as some do, is like judging Paul McCartney as an artist in his entirety by combining Beatles, Wings and solo recordings.

It's not just the Cleveland years. He is 33-32 with the Patriots which is a drastically worse winning percentage than his years with Brady. But overall, I agree with you regarding Bill building a competitive team in the cap era. I think this is because he is also such a good coach so he is able to put players, especially his defensive guys in positions to win.

I am excited to see what he is able to do with Mac and if Mac has that special quality like Brady to win in the post-season. Hopefully we start to find out this year.