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Belichick's record without Brady since the Brady era began

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Dec 6th

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sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
And 2001... when we started 0-2.

I'd add 5-13 to the figure in the OP for a total of: 33-32....not bad!
Counting his CLE days Bill is 7 games under .500 lifetime as HC without Brady. It doesn't mean much if anything at all if he can get to .500 without Brady but it's looking these days like it's a very doable accomplishment before BB calls it a career.
 

RobertWeathers

Author of the Port Huron Statement
PatsFans.com Supporter
I am just pushing back against the notion that his coaching supersedes player talent. It doesn't. We learned that last year and this off-season when he spent $165 mil upgrading the team.
This was my point earlier.

Fans can't de-couple BB the GM from BB the coach. I've never agreed with it and never will.

So when fans start the TB12 < BB they are saying BB the coach which I agree with.

When fans say TB12 < BB HC+GM I don't agree.
 

DropKickFlutie

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
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I have never understood the 'record without Brady' crap. Let's do this the other way.

Name me 3 other NFL teams in the year 2000, tell me the team/coach/starting-QB at the time that would have drafted Tom Brady in the 7th round or signed him as a UDFA, and within 4 years would have elevated Brady to be the NFL Starting Quarterback over their existing incumbent QB. I want to really pressure test this thesis. I think there are no teams besides New England where Brady would even have a legit chance.

We can go over BB's record all we want, point is Brady in all likelihood is selling insurance fulltime in 95% of the scenarios without William Belichick not only drafting him, but then keeping an unprecedented/rare 4th QB on a roster for a whole year, and then having the balls to bench his pro bowl massive-contract QB for this total-unknown guy. Most other NFL coaches are not like BB. This goes for JC Jackson, Edelman, Malcolm Butler, Stephen Neal as well. Some guys simply would have never had a NFL career, period, without Belichick. Every other NFL coach would have passed.
 
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amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
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I have never understood the 'record without Brady' crap. Let's do this the other way.

Name me 3-5 other NFL teams in the year 2000, tell me the team/coach/starting-QB at the time that would have drafted Tom Brady in the 7th round or signed him as a UDFA, and within 4 years would have elevated Brady to be the NFL Starting Quarterback over their existing incumbent. I want to really pressure test this thesis. I think there are no teams besides New England where Brady would even have a legit chance.

We can go over BB's record all we want, point is Brady in all likelihood is selling insurance fulltime in 95% of the scenarios without William Belichick not only drafting him but then keeping an unprecedented/rare 4th QB on a roster for a whole year and then having the balls to bench his pro bowl massive-contract QB for this total-unknown guy. Most other NFL coaches are not like BB. This goes for JC Jackson, Edelman, Malcolm Butler, Stephen Neal as well. Some guys simply would have never had a NFL career, period, without Belichick.
Aren't you the one who HATES Josh? LOL I mean you do know Bill is a defensive guy, right?

To answer your question though, Brady would have flourished under Coughlin, Shanny, Cowher, and Reid, among others.
 

ashley1992

Moderator
Staff member
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Aren't you the one who HATES Josh? LOL I mean you do know Bill is a defensive guy, right?

To answer your question though, Brady would have flourished under Coughlin, Shanny, Cowher, and Reid, among others.
Let's get off this Brady vs Bill discussion or this thread will be locked....not pointing at any particular poster, just the last post that was made.
 

patsfanincleveland

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I think a lot of us feel that an all time great QB is more valuable than an all time great coach. That's not anti-BB.

I don't think anyone here really thinks Bill sucks or at least I'd hope not. BB right now has a rebuilding team on a rookie QB whose window realistically should not be open yet - in the conversation among the best in the AFC. That's remarkable.

Your feelings should make an effort to grasp that GOAT's do not spring from a vacuum.

Coaching and organization are required.
 

ashley1992

Moderator
Staff member
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Counting his CLE days Bill is 7 games under .500 lifetime as HC without Brady. It doesn't mean much if anything at all if he can get to .500 without Brady but it's looking these days like it's a very doable accomplishment before BB calls it a career.
Let's not get into one of these discussions again....the GOAT head coach (our head coach) can win with talent, a lack of talent and no head coach will be successful, no matter how good he is...point taken with Brady's team when he wasn't there......please no more Bill vs Tom....we're on a 5 game winning streak in 1st place...let' s enjoy!!!
 

DropKickFlutie

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
Aren't you

1. Belichick is WAY more than a defensive guy. He is also the brains behind the rejuvenated offense. You think he has no clue about offense and that it was from mcidiot? Haha that's hilarious. Bill is the one who told Josh to go talk to Urban Meyer 15 years ago. And that's all Josh ever learned was the option route shotgun offense, he totally missed the 2nd renaissance where BB then started the 2TE offense (Detroit personnel) with O'Brien.
Belichick is a lot more well rounded than you give him credit for. He knows all 3 phases of the game. BB spends every off-season talking to other coaches and re-vamping all facets of the team. Not sure if you've been completely missing his 20-year tenure here if you think he's only a defensive guy.

2. Also those coaches names you just tossed out, there is no chance Brady carves a spot there. Don't be lazy and go look at who was on those rosters and study those coaches' histories. None of those guys ever took a flier on a non-name QB plus they already had an entrenched incumbent. To put another way since there is so much emotional baggage with Brady, try to convince me that Malcolm Butler, Edelman, JC Jackson, or Stephen Neal would have had successful careers without Belichick. Nope. Brady is just the weird anomaly that it was at the QB position, but he was another example of a no-name guy that very few people (pretty much only BB) would give a chance to play in the NFL.

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patsfanincleveland

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
This was my point earlier.

Fans can't de-couple BB the GM from BB the coach. I've never agreed with it and never will.

So when fans start the TB12 < BB they are saying BB the coach which I agree with.

When fans say TB12 < BB HC+GM I don't agree.

Timeframes do not allow for proper review. It will.

That will change when Belichick wins one with Mac.

I live here in Cleveland and absent "the move" everyone knows the Browns were on a multiple Super Bowl path.

GOAT coaching and organization will always trump players because Steve Young exists.

Can Brady win without a Belichick or Belichick disciple team? Let's put him on the Lions and Jags and find out.
 

MAC10

Upper Crust
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I never understood how a fan of our team could be so negative toward our coach...especially the greatest coach of all time....just doesn't make sense to me....I guess they would rather jump ship and root for another team which is fine, but why then stay on a Patriot fan site.

Easy. Those people care more about Brady than they ever did the NEP.
 

MAC10

Upper Crust
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Believe me, I am on the train. :)

you admitted in the Brady thread you only care about Brady and are going to be done with the NFL once he retires. Now you’re a patriot fan again? Sorry no room on this train
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Aren't you the one who HATES Josh? LOL I mean you do know Bill is a defensive guy, right?

To answer your question though, Brady would have flourished under Coughlin, Shanny, Cowher, and Reid, among others.
Coughlin would have been interesting. He's not everyone's cup of tea and for all that people say about BB I'd say that's even more true for Coughlin. Strahan despised the guy and he wasn't the only one. BB often goes over the top to keep his players grounded but Coughlin would call out his players with the best of them.
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Let's not get into one of these discussions again....the GOAT head coach (our head coach) can win with talent, a lack of talent and no head coach will be successful, no matter how good he is...point taken with Brady's team when he wasn't there......please no more Bill vs Tom....we're on a 5 game winning streak in 1st place...let' s enjoy!!!
Oh yeah for sure. I don't think it matters that much if at all whether he does or not. Nobody cared when other HOF coaches didn't win as much without their all world QB and the same will be true for Bill after he's finished.
 

goheels22002

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With all due respect, every great team at the pro or collegiate level has a valid Chicken or Egg debate. The Celtics of the 1980s is a classic example. Was it the coaching or the players? In my mind there is not a Celtics dynasty with the wrong head coach. Larry Bird showed up in 1979 when Bill Fitch (Captain Video) was head coach and while they won one title, in 1981, it was pretty clear that Fitch's way of doing things wasn't taking full advantage of the skills and the need to communicate with superstars that the understated KC Jones brought to the job. I could argue some of the dream teams that were assembled in Philadelphia and other places failed to compete with the Lakers and Celtics because the coach was not the right fit. Billy Cunningham was exactly the guy to coach the '82-'83 Sixers (Dr. J, Moses Malone, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Toney, Bobby Jones, etc.)

What makes Belichick so special as a coach is that the culture stays the same, he stresses excellence on special teams, and he does not make in-game mistakes. His coaching style adjusts to the opponent and the talent he has on both sides of the ball. As a GM he has a budget for position groups and doesn't allow that to get out of whack (see: Garoppolo, Jimmy).

The Brady - Belichick argument is too narrow. Put Tom Brady in Detroit with GM Matt Millen in 2001 and think about what happens there - no avocado ice cream, no Giselle, no Deflategate, no playoffs, no nada. Brady landed in the right place at the right time with a defense, HC and OC who could dial it back from the Bledsoe bombs away offense to the time and ball control offense that beat the Greatest Show on Turf.

No need to shutter this topic. It's a good one. What if Big Papi played for the Orioles?
 
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amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
Coughlin would have been interesting. He's not everyone's cup of tea and for all that people say about BB I'd say that's even more true for Coughlin. Strahan despised the guy and he wasn't the only one. BB often goes over the top to keep his players grounded but Coughlin would call out his players with the best of them.
I agree. But Bill had the same rep and Brady flourished. I think it would have been a hand in glove fit.
 

goheels22002

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Oh yeah for sure. I don't think it matters that much if at all whether he does or not. Nobody cared when other HOF coaches didn't win as much without their all world QB and the same will be true for Bill after he's finished.
I don't know. I think it matters. I like to think Belichick is on par with a guy like Phil Jackson who won titles in Chicago and LA with a variation on the same offense, a similar culture and lots of great players. He doesn't have to win a SB, but another appearance or two in the AFCC with Mac Jones would do the trick. This team can get there if they keep their current play up.

Parcells did it with SB appearances with the Giants and the Patriots. It would be great for BB to take a non-Brady team to the big game.
 

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