Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Calhoun44]

I wanted to keep Tom. I don’t feel we’d be much better than 10-6 even with him. IE No Super Bowls. I just didn’t want to see him play elsewhere.

The analogy I use is BB was the successful guy who kinda took his great wife for granted. The business was his idea but he didn’t appreciate how she enabled him to make it successful. TB12 was obviously much better than that. But, I feel that’s why BB lost him.Essentially, BB chose Joe Thuney over Tom. SMH. He had to pay Thuney 13m and eat Tom’s dead-money. Incredible that such a smart guy made that decision without an option at QB
like Jimmy G.

As for the Gronkies. He’s a goof. Great player. But, he did retire while TB12 was still here.

I don’t hate BB like many. But, I’m curious to see our off-season

I think BB did Brady a favor by letting him go. I think it was obvious that they needed to adjust the roster and the cap was maxed out. I wonder if he thought "why drag a 43 year old through a 2 year rebuild to win a few extra games". We probably will never know the actual reasons why things played out the way they did. People will believe the version they want to believe and disregard the versions that don't fit their narrative, we see it all the time these days in politics and society. Why should this be any different?

I'm actually more excited for this season than I have been in years, it's exciting to see which players develop and which ones are moved on from. It is fun to not know if they will even make the playoffs and with the AFCE getting better, that makes each game so much more important. I don't know, I'm probably just weird but I was ready for a change. I'll check in around November on this topic and see if I'm feeling the same way. Haha

 

[Rob0729]

That's the most obvious part of this "discussion" that even Bill has admitted to many times. It's a players game. Bill has even apologized after some losses and said that he could have coached better.

Also, Brady just won a SB with coaches that have been constantly ridiculed here. There couldn't be more proof that players in general and Brady in particular are the key to any team's success. That's not meant as a knock on Bill, but it's right there in front of us in plain sight.

The difference is in the last part of your post is the league is different now than it was in 2001. In fact, part of the reason the league changed the rules is because the Pats' defense consistently smacked around Manning's and other top QBs WRs.

Today, the NFL is about the QB. They have made the rules so that QBs are the focus of the team. Back in 2001, if a QB passed for 4,000 yards they were immediately in the discussion for MVP (only Warner and Manning made that mark that year). Now almost half the QBs in the league pass for 4,000 yards or more (12 QBs did it in 2020).

 

[patsfaninpa]

I think BB did Brady a favor by letting him go. I think it was obvious that they needed to adjust the roster and the cap was maxed out. I wonder if he thought "why drag a 43 year old through a 2 year rebuild to win a few extra games". We probably will never know the actual reasons why things played out the way they did. People will believe the version they want to believe and disregard the versions that don't fit their narrative, we see it all the time these days in politics and society. Why should this be any different?

I'm actually more excited for this season than I have been in years, it's exciting to see which players develop and which ones are moved on from. It is fun to not know if they will even make the playoffs and with the AFCE getting better, that makes each game so much more important. I don't know, I'm probably just weird but I was ready for a change. I'll check in around November on this topic and see if I'm feeling the same way. Haha

Then, why pay your LG 13m for one year before you lose him?

 

[Rob0729]

I think BB did Brady a favor by letting him go. I think it was obvious that they needed to adjust the roster and the cap was maxed out. I wonder if he thought "why drag a 43 year old through a 2 year rebuild to win a few extra games". We probably will never know the actual reasons why things played out the way they did. People will believe the version they want to believe and disregard the versions that don't fit their narrative, we see it all the time these days in politics and society. Why should this be any different?

I'm actually more excited for this season than I have been in years, it's exciting to see which players develop and which ones are moved on from. It is fun to not know if they will even make the playoffs and with the AFCE getting better, that makes each game so much more important. I don't know, I'm probably just weird but I was ready for a change. I'll check in around November on this topic and see if I'm feeling the same way. Haha

I don't think Belichick did it for Tom, but I still think it may have been the best thing for both sides. I agree that the odds were and still are that Pats wouldn't be a contender again before Brady hit the age wall.

Last year was probably as good of a year as any to rip the band aid off. COVID made the league a little less enjoyable especially for season ticket holders. It is also going to make this offseason very advantageous for a team with tons of cap space like the Pats have because a lot of teams are way over the cap and will be cutting good players who aren't 32-33 years old. There will be a lot of good young players. And this year has a decent amount of top QB draft prospects to go after (although next year may be better). And there may be decent options for a stop gap QB.

If the Pats were Brady away from challenging KC for the AFC and winning the Super Bowl, I would have been really upset to see them let Brady go. But they weren't. I am happy for Brady that he was able to chase and actually get at least one more ring before he retires. I think the Pats may be better off in their Post Brady rebuilding process letting him go now than in a couple of years.

 

[Calhoun44]

Then, why pay your LG 13m for one year before you lose him?

Good point. Maybe they thought they needed him for the running game to click because they needed offense from somewhere to remain competitive. Not sure, but the running game was pretty awesome most games and I really enjoy a good ground attack. they probably had faith that Stidham or any QB they got wouldn't be as bad as they ended up with. Siht happens and hopefully he will make the right decisions going forward. BB is smart enough to fix this, but he isn't going to always make the right decisions.

 

[Rob0729]

Then, why pay your LG 13m for one year before you lose him?

I think this had to do with Stidham. I think Belichick still was hopeful that Stidham would win the starting job and potentially develop into the QB of the future. With a young, raw, and inexperienced QB like Stidham, Belichick probably wanted to give him the best offensive line possible.

 

[mariomega]

Belichick with Brady:

249 wins-75 losses, no losing seasons, missed the playoffs once in 19 seasons, 30 playoff wins.

Belichick without Brady:

63 wins-73 losses, 6 losing seasons, made the playoffs once in 8 years, one playoff win.

The proof is in the pudding. You can twist yourself into a pretzel all you want, Belichick is sub-50% coach both in his overall career and in his Pats career as a coach without Brady.

45% in 5 seasons in Cleveland.

48% in 3+ seasons in New England.

77% with Brady.

I guess 8 seasons, 2 different teams, a dozen other QB’s are not enough sample size.

What a great post!

Let BB lovers burn in anger.

They can't dispute facts.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Good point. Maybe they thought they needed him for the running game to click because they needed offense from somewhere to remain competitive. Not sure, but the running game was pretty awesome most games and I really enjoy a good ground attack. they probably had faith that Stidham or any QB they got wouldn't be as bad as they ended up with. Siht happens and hopefully he will make the right decisions going forward. BB is smart enough to fix this, but he isn't going to always make the right decisions.

I will always be a Pats fan. Team over player. Just didn’t want TB12 to leave.

Bobby Orr was my favorite athlete as a kid. It was painful to lose him. I’m old now. Not emotional about things. But, just wanted TB12 to ride it out with the Pats. Especially, since we had no Plan B

 

[RobertWeathers]

Aside from the year directly before Belichick, that team was a perrennial playoff contender and went to 3 AFCCG's in the 6 years before him. Then Belichick left and within 5 years that team was in Baltimore winning a Super Bowl.

Belichick was in Cleveland 5 yeaars. He had 1 winning season. People want to pretend he wasn't considered a disaster in Cleveland and act like he performed a miracle taking 4 years to get to 11-5 before losing the team. Somehow other coaches were able to succeed with Art Modell

You cannot accurately evaluate Belichick's time in CLE without acknowledging the circumstances.

The perennial contender in CLE you speak of got old and turned into a 3-13 team. 3 years later Bill had it back in the playoffs. That is a fact.

Art blew it up in 1995. I already posted the play-by-play on that one.

Only reason BAL turned around was Art retired to Florida after the 1998 season, his son David became president, he hired Brian Billick and gave Ozzie more autonomy. Before that they won 14 games in 3 years...thanks to Art's meddling.

Define succeed please? Is making the playoffs success? Is winning a playoff game a success?

Sounds like BB is being held to a double standard.

Don't even tell me you think Art Modell enabled a winning culture. He clearly didn't.

 

[venecol]

If you want to gravitate to Bills years in Cleveland and years here minus TB to trash him as a coach that’s fine. But I am curious, if not Bill which coach(s) would you rather have these last 20 years?

Bill is a great coach. Some of his defensive game plans are legendary. I'm not about trashing Bill, just shocked & disappointed he left the team in shambles regarding the QB position.

It was universally acknowledged that BA wasn't a good coach. Nobody here gave the Bucs a chance to win it all, mainly because of the "coaching." Yet, TFB overcame all of that and helped deliver a SB to Tampa despite BA's coaching style. So, we can see that Brady can be a winner despite lacking top notch coaching.

On the other hand we see guys like Andy Reid, who by all accounts is a great coach. Yet, he couldn't win it all until he found the "guy." So even good/great coaching needs great players to make things happen.

I think Tom could've won several SBs in NE with several coaches that didn't necessarily have to be great, like Payton, Carroll, Reid, Coughlin, even Gruden. TFB the GOAT would've made it happen, he's that unique of a player. Bill truly lucked out being able to keep such a generational talent as long as he was able to.

 

[mariomega]

Bill is a great coach. Some of his defensive game plans are legendary. I'm not about trashing Bill, just shocked & disappointed he left the team in shambles regarding the QB position.

It was universally acknowledged that BA wasn't a good coach. Nobody here gave the Bucs a chance to win it all, mainly because of the "coaching." Yet, TFB overcame all of that and helped deliver a SB to Tampa despite BA's coaching style. So, we can see that Brady can be a winner despite lacking top notch coaching.

On the other hand we see guys like Andy Reid, who by all accounts is a great coach. Yet, he couldn't win it all until he found the "guy." So even good/great coaching needs great players to make things happen.

I think Tom could've won several SBs in NE with several coaches that didn't necessarily have to be great, like Payton, Carroll, Reid, Coughlin, even Gruden. TFB the GOAT would've made it happen, he's that unique of a player. Bill truly lucked out being able to keep such a generational talent as long as he was able to.

Great post!

 

[amfootball]

I think Tom could've won several SBs in NE with several coaches that didn't necessarily have to be great, like Payton, Carroll, Reid, Coughlin, even Gruden. TFB the GOAT would've made it happen, he's that unique of a player. Bill truly lucked out being able to keep such a generational talent as long as he was able to.

This is a great point. Would you even put Arians in that list? I wouldn't and he won with him in year 1 without an offseason. It is very possible he wins more with a different GM/HC.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Bill is a great coach. Some of his defensive game plans are legendary. I'm not about trashing Bill, just shocked & disappointed he left the team in shambles regarding the QB position.

It was universally acknowledged that BA wasn't a good coach. Nobody here gave the Bucs a chance to win it all, mainly because of the "coaching." Yet, TFB overcame all of that and helped deliver a SB to Tampa despite BA's coaching style. So, we can see that Brady can be a winner despite lacking top notch coaching.

On the other hand we see guys like Andy Reid, who by all accounts is a great coach. Yet, he couldn't win it all until he found the "guy." So even good/great coaching needs great players to make things happen.

I think Tom could've won several SBs in NE with several coaches that didn't necessarily have to be great, like Payton, Carroll, Reid, Coughlin, even Gruden. TFB the GOAT would've made it happen, he's that unique of a player. Bill truly lucked out being able to keep such a generational talent as long as he was able to.

I agree with this take that the player is more important than the coach. The part I take issue with (and it’s the minority of posters in this thread) is that BB is just some jag coach who’s at the same level he was when he got his first gig in Cleveland. His teams here are usually some of the most disciplined in the league. A few coaching points off the top of my head going back to 2003 was the intentional safety vs denver putting in on the defense to hold and get the ball back in better field position for the GW TD and the preparation that ultimately led to the Butler INT.

 

[Deus Irae]

Glad you pointed this out. There’s a really weird Mandela effect with this game, where people say Brady scored with a couple of minutes left ALL the time. It’s really strange.

As you said, the Pats scored a touchdown on the opening drive of the second half… and that’s all she wrote. They went punt, interception, punt, downs the rest of the way. There were no last minute heroics from Brady in that game.

(That’s also, by the way, the least painful loss by far for the Pats to me. In fact if it wasn’t stupid Eli and the Giants, I really wouldn’t care at all. They weren’t that good, you can’t win them all, and they had a murderer on the team that I just as well not see old clips of him celebrating a Super Bowl.)

It's not that he's scored with a couple of minutes left ALL the time. It's that he's had the team in the lead with less than 5 minutes to go in all 3 SB losses.

2007 Giants got the ball back with 2:45 on the clock, and scored with 39 seconds left
2011 Giants got the ball back with 3:46 on the clock, and scored in about 2 and a half minutes (with 1:04 left)
Philly got the ball back with 9:22 on the clock, and chewed up 7 minutes while scoring the go ahead TD.

 

[Deus Irae]

Bill is a great coach. Some of his defensive game plans are legendary. I'm not about trashing Bill, just shocked & disappointed he left the team in shambles regarding the QB position.

It was universally acknowledged that BA wasn't a good coach. Nobody here gave the Bucs a chance to win it all, mainly because of the "coaching." Yet, TFB overcame all of that and helped deliver a SB to Tampa despite BA's coaching style. So, we can see that Brady can be a winner despite lacking top notch coaching.

On the other hand we see guys like Andy Reid, who by all accounts is a great coach. Yet, he couldn't win it all until he found the "guy." So even good/great coaching needs great players to make things happen.

I think Tom could've won several SBs in NE with several coaches that didn't necessarily have to be great, like Payton, Carroll, Reid, Coughlin, even Gruden. TFB the GOAT would've made it happen, he's that unique of a player. Bill truly lucked out being able to keep such a generational talent as long as he was able to.

Arians has won COTY twice. That doesn't really translate to "wasn't a good coach".


Interesting note (at least to me):



Bruce Arians now has as many SB victories as Mike Tomlin.

 

[ralmat55]

Report: Russell Wilson thinks Pete Carroll and his sons answer to no one

Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson hasn't only played for head coach Pete Carroll for his entire career.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

It looks like nepotism has reared it’s ugly head in Seattle as well. The NFL should institute the “Reid Rule”. No coach should be allowed to hire his kids, nieces or nephews, or children of a friend to their staff.

Imagine you’re Tom Brady or Russell Wilson and you’ve earned everything you’ve got in your career only to see your HC pass over more experience and capable coaches and hire their kids to important coaching jobs.

These are billion dollar businesses not mom and pop shops for goodness sake.

 

[venecol]

Arians has won COTY twice. That doesn't really translated to "wasn't a good coach".


Interesting note (at least to me):



Bruce Arians now has as many SB victories as Mike Tomlin.

Yea, despite that, pretty much everyone here (and elsewhere) decried his coaching for holding Tom back. Many flat out said he wasn't a good coach for whatever reason. I don't recall ever offering an opinion either way on BA's coaching.

 

[lancerman]

You cannot accurately evaluate Belichick's time in CLE without acknowledging the circumstances.

The perennial contender in CLE you speak of got old and turned into a 3-13 team. 3 years later Bill had it back in the playoffs. That is a fact.

Art blew it up in 1995. I already posted the play-by-play on that one.

Only reason BAL turned around was Art retired to Florida after the 1998 season, his son David became president, he hired Brian Billick and gave Ozzie more autonomy. Before that they won 14 games in 3 years...thanks to Art's meddling.

Define succeed please? Is making the playoffs success? Is winning a playoff game a success?

Sounds like BB is being held to a double standard.

Don't even tell me you think Art Modell enabled a winning culture. He clearly didn't.

Why is Belichick one of the least successful coaches under Modell. Either way you slice it, his time in Cleveland is not a success. One 11-5 season out of 5 is not a success.

Acting like he was successful or should be praised for that is a double standad. If a coach came to New England right now and had one 11-5 season in 5 years, everyone here would want him gone.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Report: Russell Wilson thinks Pete Carroll and his sons answer to no one

Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson hasn't only played for head coach Pete Carroll for his entire career.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

It looks like nepotism has reared it’s ugly head in Seattle as well. The NFL should institute the “Reid Rule”. No coach should be allowed to hire his kids, nieces or nephews, or children of a friend to their staff.

Imagine you’re Tom Brady or Russell Wilson and you’ve earned everything you’ve got in your career only to see your HC pass over more experience and capable coaches and hire their kids to important coaching jobs.

These are billion dollar businesses not mom and pop shops for goodness sake.

I've said this in another thread. I have no problem with children using their parents name and connections to get a chance in the NFL. However, they need to start anywhere but their Daddy's teams. Bill's kids, Reid's kids and now Carroll's kids need to make a name for themselves elsewhere. Players aren't going to respect you or take you seriously working under Daddy.

Kyle Shanahan is a great example.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Why is Belichick one of the least successful coaches under Modell.

Define success? If it's winning a Super Bowl he has a lot of company. Winning a playoff game?

Either way you slice it, his time in Cleveland is not a success. One 11-5 season out of 5 is not a success.

So what is a success? You don't agree Bill had extenuating circumstances?

Acting like he was successful or should be praised for that is a double standad. If a coach came to New England right now and had one 11-5 season in 5 years, everyone here would want him gone.

His record in CLE should be evaluated in the context of the circumstances he worked with.

Was Parcells a success in NE? He was 34-34 here and had 2 losing seasons? Was he not sucessful?