Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Calhoun44]

There's a difference between cheering for your team and being willfully blind when analyzing your team.


Since you can't look at your team with any honesty, what does it matter?

I guess you and I are different and will not see it from the same perspective.

Humor me/educate me, how did I move the goalposts?

 

[PatsWSB47]

One of the one or two best players in the league at your position or overall for a period of time whether it is a year or an era. You are better than everyone else or nearly everyone else. You are the best of the best.

And winning the Super Bowl never makes you elite. Otherwise, Eli Manning was elite. Or Ben Roethlisberger is/was elite. It can be the topping to an elite season, but it isn't what makes you elite.

Even if we use your narrow definition Brady was most always elite. He's elite for that final drive in SB 36. He's elite for his 4th quarter and overtime comeback against the Raiders and his comebacks during the year. He was the best with his winner mentality. No one was better than that. Hes maintained that for 20+ years. You sell him short when you narrow the definition to stats.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Please give us your definition of what elite is.

Joe Flacco

(couldn’t resist)

 

[RobertWeathers]

I guess you and I are different and will not see it from the same perspective.

Humor me/educate me, how did I move the goalposts?

He always uses that line when he's in an argumentative stalemate.

 

[gobesmug]

One of the one or two best players in the league at your position or overall for a period of time whether it is a year or an era. You are better than everyone else or nearly everyone else. You are the best of the best.

And winning the Super Bowl never makes you elite. Otherwise, Eli Manning was elite. Or Ben Roethlisberger is/was elite. It can be the topping to an elite season, but it isn't what makes you elite.

That's an interesting take on elite. Based on your opinion of elite I understand your position now.

For you elite = The Best, like Aaron Donald would be the only DT considered elite right now.

Basically you never consider a player from years 1-3 elite because they haven't sustained excellence for a long enough period of time.

 

[Rob0729]

Even if we use your narrow definition Brady was most always elite. He's elite for that final drive in SB 36. He's elite for his 4th quarter and overtime comeback against the Raiders and his comebacks during the year. He was the best with his winner mentality. No one was better than that. Hes maintained that for 20+ years. You sell him short when you narrow the definition to stats.

Yes, using the most narrow definition, Trump was always elite. Any other definition, he wasn't. Forget the entire 2001 season and look at one drive. Brady like Eli Manning in the 2007 season were elite.

 

[Rob0729]

That's an interesting take on elite. Based on your opinion of elite I understand your position now.

For you elite = The Best, like Aaron Donald would be the only DT considered elite right now.

Basically you never consider a player from years 1-3 elite because they haven't sustained excellence for a long enough period of time.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that last statement. A period of time.

What do you think elite is? Elite by definition is the best of the best. That is the definition. Apparently you want to treat elite how MLB treats their Hall of Fame or as it often mocked as the Hall of Really Good.

 

[gobesmug]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that last statement. A period of time.

What do you think elite is? Elite by definition is the best of the best. That is the definition. Apparently you want to treat elite how MLB treats their Hall of Fame or as it often mocked as the Hall of Really Good.

MLB is garbage and doesn't deserve to be mentioned in a football discussion.

 

[gobesmug]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that last statement. A period of time.

What do you think elite is? Elite by definition is the best of the best. That is the definition. Apparently you want to treat elite how MLB treats their Hall of Fame or as it often mocked as the Hall of Really Good.

Elite by the actual definition of the word is superior to the rest of the group. I would say that Brady was superior to the average group of QBs in his first year starting.

Bledsoe was at the very least was average to above average and Brady was definitely superior.

That's how I look at elite.

HOF is different. Brady was not HOF caliber his first year and it takes years of dominance to earn that that.

Also my intention wasn't to put words into your mouth but to understand your position. To that end, what defines a period of time in the NFL to you? From past comments it sounded like you wanted 3 years of sustained dominance which is why I said 1-3 years. My apologies for misinterpreting.

 

[Rob0729]

Elite by the actual definition of the word is superior to the rest of the group. I would say that Brady was superior to the average group of QBs in his first year starting.

Bledsoe was at the very least was average to above average and Brady was definitely superior.

That's how I look at elite.

HOF is different. Brady was not HOF caliber his first year and it takes years of dominance to earn that that.

Also my intention wasn't to put words into your mouth but to understand your position. To that end, what defines a period of time in the NFL to you? From past comments it sounded like you wanted 3 years of sustained dominance which is why I said 1-3 years. My apologies for misinterpreting.

I judge whether a player is elite or not by their play for an entire season. They don't have be elite from the first snap of the first game to the last snap of the Super Bowl or whenever they are eliminated. Even elite player in the NFL has bad games or two a season or a more mortal game. But there has to be some consistency throughout the season.

Brady certainly had drives and moments that were elite that were foreshadowing for things to come, but he hadn't put it all together yet and he was not more than a very good QB in the 2001 season. I don't get what is so wrong with saying that and how that makes me a Brady hater.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Yes, using the most narrow definition, Trump was always elite. Any other definition, he wasn't. Forget the entire 2001 season and look at one drive. Brady like Eli Manning in the 2007 season were elite.

Yes, using the most narrow definition, Trump was always elite. Any other definition, he wasn't. Forget the entire 2001 season and look at one drive. Brady like Eli Manning in the 2007 season were elite.

What a stupid response

 

[Rob0729]

What a stupid response

LOL! So stupid that you had to post my post twice. Hey Eli had an elite final drive in that Super Bowl. He must have been elite that season then. I am just using your logic.

 

[gobesmug]

I judge whether a player is elite or not by their play for an entire season. They don't have be elite from the first snap of the first game to the last snap of the Super Bowl or whenever they are eliminated. Even elite player in the NFL has bad games or two a season or a more mortal game. But there has to be some consistency throughout the season.

Brady certainly had drives and moments that were elite that were foreshadowing for things to come, but he hadn't put it all together yet and he was not more than a very good QB in the 2001 season. I don't get what is so wrong with saying that and how that makes me a Brady hater.

I don't think you are a Brady hater. The argument in reality is semantics on the word elite. Everything you have said makes sense now. I agree with pretty much everything you have said but your opinion of elite, which is perfectly fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You think Brady was good and flashed moments of greatness, like his game winning drive in the Superbowl. To me that's elite, to you the greatness needs to be most of the time not flashes in order to be elite.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think you are a Brady hater. The argument in reality is semantics on the word elite. Everything you have said makes sense now. I agree with pretty much everything you have said but your opinion of elite, which is perfectly fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You think Brady was good and flashed moments of greatness, like his game winning drive in the Superbowl. To me that's elite, to you the greatness needs to be most of the time not flashes in order to be elite.

That is what I have been saying all along.

And I didn't mean to say you were calling me a Brady hater. A lot of others have though.

 

[PatsWSB47]

LOL! So stupid that you had to post my post twice. Hey Eli had an elite final drive in that Super Bowl. He must have been elite that season then. I am just using your logic.

What you don't get is that it's not the final drive by itself like Eli had. It's the "it" that Brady had that Eli and other flashes in the pan never had. Any slob can be a one or 2 hit wonder. For 20 plus it was these ingredients or those ingredients plus Brady equal wins. It was always plus Brady. Brady combined his adequate skill and limited experience with an unstoppable will to win, an unstoppable drive to get better and an unstoppable drive to be the best. That was there before 2001 and continues today. I think Chris Gasper put it the best recently. He said we used to think Belichick was thoroughbred and Brady was the jockey. Now it looks like Brady was always the thoroughbred.

 

[Rob0729]

What you don't get is that it's not the final drive by itself like Eli had. It's the "it" that Brady had that Eli and other flashes in the pan never had. Any slob can be a one or 2 hit wonder. For 20 plus it was these ingredients or those ingredients plus Brady equal wins. It was always plus Brady. Brady combined his adequate skill and limited experience with an unstoppable will to win, an unstoppable drive to get better and an unstoppable drive to be the best. That was there before 2001 and continues today. I think Chris Gasper put it the best recently. He said we used to think Belichick was thoroughbred and Brady was the jockey. Now it looks like Brady was always the thoroughbred.

I get it. I also get that Brady's season as a whole was not the quality of being elite. He had flashes, but that isn't consistency. Brady very good nearly right off the bat, but he wasn't elite yet.

Brady a lot of the tools that only elite QB have. But he still had a lot of things to work on from his mechanics and his abilities to read defenses. He limited playing time in college to refine his skills. To his credit, he worked harder than everyone else to become elite. No one worked harder than Brady. Without that drive, I doubt he would have ever become more than a really good QB. Luckily he had it.

There are other QBs in this league that have far better physical skills than Brady. But they don't have the drive to become better. Marcus Mariota has the skills to be a Hall of Fame QB, but he doesn't seem to have Brady drive to pull it together. So he is likely to be a journeyman unless he finds a system that will get him to work on those skills.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I get it. I also get that Brady's season as a whole was not the quality of being elite. He had flashes, but that isn't consistency. Brady very good nearly right off the bat, but he wasn't elite yet.

Brady a lot of the tools that only elite QB have. But he still had a lot of things to work on from his mechanics and his abilities to read defenses. He limited playing time in college to refine his skills. To his credit, he worked harder than everyone else to become elite. No one worked harder than Brady. Without that drive, I doubt he would have ever become more than a really good QB. Luckily he had it.

There are other QBs in this league that have far better physical skills than Brady. But they don't have the drive to become better. Marcus Mariota has the skills to be a Hall of Fame QB, but he doesn't seem to have Brady drive to pull it together. So he is likely to be a journeyman unless he finds a system that will get him to work on those skills.

The intangibles separate him from the rest. There was inconsistency with those. Take those away and he doesn't make those comebacks. Take away that infectious "winner" presence and others are less inspired. A lot of people talked about it then. Those are.qualities of being elite. If you cant agree that's elite then I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

[Rob0729]

The intangibles separate him from the rest. There was inconsistency with those. Take those away and he doesn't make those comebacks. Take away that infectious "winner" presence and others are less inspired. A lot of people talked about it then. Those are.qualities of being elite. If you cant agree that's elite then I guess we'll just have to disagree.

Again, he had a lot of the qualities to be elite in 2001. He just hadn't pulled everything together yet to be actually elite. Again, I didn't Brady didn't have the qualities. He was just lacking in a lot of areas that he worked hard to improve. A lot of it was physical things that just took time for him to develop.

 

[venecol]

They did in the AFCCG (two special teams TDs vs 10 offensive points with seven of them coming from when Bledsoe was QB). In the Super Bowl, the defense scored seven points (and would have had a second TD if it wasn't called back due to a holding call away from the play) vs. the offense's 13. If you count field goals for the special teams, yes, definitely.

But the Pats' offense only scored three TDs in the playoffs in 2001 and one of them was with Bledsoe under center.

That's a great way of putting what you've been trying to say for the last 40 pages. You finally have me convinced. Congrats, it took a while. Sorry I didn't see it before, it being right in front of me the whole time. The Patriots D/ST could have won the 2001 playoffs without the offense. Nice job.

 

[Calhoun44]

He always uses that line when he's in an argumentative stalemate.

Good to know. He seems a bit snippy. Maybe he missed a meal.