2018 Offensive Line discussion

[maust]

Your post reminds me of the time when a hot lady was giving me the eye and my buddy leans over a says "dude, that's a man".

jimk?

 

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

He looks happy with Dante LOL

 

[mgteich]

You have the opinions that you have. Anyone who disagrees is "not of reasonable mind". It's good too see that some things remain very much the same.

As of now, and according to what we can take from Scar's comments:

Cannon is Cannon
Mason is Mason
Andrews is Andrews
Thuney is Thuney
Brown/Wynn is the Solder replacement.

The significant difference between last year and this year is an apparent disappointment who was shipped out by his team and may have to flip OT positions, and a draft pick, one of whom will be replacing Nate Solder, who was an above average LT. Nobody of any reasonable mind should already be arguing that this is stronger than last year.

 

[Tony2046]

You have the opinions that you have. Anyone who disagrees is "not of reasonable mind". It's good too see that some things remain very much the same.

Not that there isn't room for some disagreement or discussion obviously but that was a pretty solid post. Or at least imo it was.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

You can't dismiss that Little Billy D) got basically their 1st and 3rd round value back when they traded "lost little Cookie" D) for the 23rd overall pick. So you should say it was a Wynn Wynn trade.

I see what you did there

 

[Deus Irae]

You have the opinions that you have. Anyone who disagrees is "not of reasonable mind". It's good too see that some things remain very much the same.

Feel free to explain how it's reasonable to simply assume that a player who's never played in the NFL is already better than Nate Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team. The various members of the Giants front office will, no doubt, be sure to read your response.

Or, if you'd rather, feel free to explain how it's reasonable to assume that a RT who was let go by his team for just a draft pick swap is going to transition to LT and is already better there than was Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team.

Then, when you're done with that, perhaps you can revisit your thread telling us all about how the RB problem was "solved", and then help us to understand why, given that you'd already assured us that said RB problem was solved, the team still went out and got Hill and Michel.

 

[mgteich]

The tem is always subject to upgrades. Maybe Hill will make the team, maybe not.

Michel was a great pick. Most here, me included, expected a RB to be drafted in the first 4 rounds (and therefore be on the 53.
=======
We had a fine OL last year. BTW, how many times did Fleming start, ow Waddle (better then Fleming)? I don't expect that players like Waddle will start this year, although he i likely to make the 53.

But, yes, I understand the philosophy that rookies or free agents from other teams are worthless unless and until they show us how good they are in the regular season. As I said, I disagree, as does much of the media (who folks can certainly ignore). I recall a segment on NFLN where the patriots are said to have one of the 5 MOST IMPROVED offensive lines in the NFL.
======
But, I have no reason to keep on comparing to last year, especially to the team that played the Super Bowl. The season will speak for itself. [and yes, this is before accounting for further additions, for injuries and for FA successes and failures)].

Feel free to explain how it's reasonable to simply assume that a player who's never played in the NFL is already better than Nate Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team. The various members of the Giants front office will, no doubt, be sure to read your response.

Or, if you'd rather, feel free to explain how it's reasonable to assume that a RT who was let go by his team for just a draft pick swap is going to transition to LT and is already better there than was Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team.

Then, when you're done with that, perhaps you can revisit your thread telling us all about how the RB problem was "solved", and then help us to understand why, given that you'd already assured us that said RB problem was solved, the team still went out and got Hill and Michel.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Feel free to explain how it's reasonable to simply assume that a player who's never played in the NFL is already better than Nate Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team. The various members of the Giants front office will, no doubt, be sure to read your response.

Or, if you'd rather, feel free to explain how it's reasonable to assume that a RT who was let go by his team for just a draft pick swap is going to transition to LT and is already better there than was Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team.

Then, when you're done with that, perhaps you can revisit your thread telling us all about how the RB problem was "solved", and then help us to understand why, given that you'd already assured us that said RB problem was solved, the team still went out and got Hill and Michel.

You talking in this specific case or in all cases?

 

[Deus Irae]

The tem is always subject to upgrades. Maybe Hill will make the team, maybe not.

Michel was a great pick. Most here, me included, expected a RB to be drafted in the first 4 rounds (and therefore be on the 53.
=======
We had a fine OL last year. BTW, how many times did Fleming start, ow Waddle (better then Fleming)? I don't expect that players like Waddle will start this year, although he i likely to make the 53.

But, yes, I understand the philosophy that rookies or free agents from other teams are worthless unless and until they show us how good they are in the regular season. As I said, I disagree, as does much of the media (who folks can certainly ignore). I recall a segment on NFLN where the patriots are said to have one of the 5 MOST IMPROVED offensive lines in the NFL.
======
But, I have no reason to keep on comparing to last year, especially to the team that played the Super Bowl. The season will speak for itself. [and yes, this is before accounting for further additions, for injuries and for FA successes and failures)].

I never claimed rookies or FAs from other teams are worthless. What I said was that to assume that said players were already better than the departing starter was not reasonable. That doesn't mean that you can't hope they'll be better, or that you can't think that they'll improve enough to be better. It just means that it's not reasonable to assume that they are already better than the guy who just paid as the biggest of the NFL's OL big dogs.

And Fleming/Waddle starting last year because of injury issues doesn't change the fact that the starting OL was Solder/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Cannon, and that the projected starting OL this year, as of this moment, is Wynn or Brown/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Cannon

As for the RB, please... that's all in the thread. You declared the problem solved. The Patriots, along with some posters here, clearly did not buy that line of thinking. Do I really need to crack out the obligatory "but I guess you know best?" line of passive aggressive attack, or can we just accept the reality of the Patriots moves as a point made against you?

Your posts were typical off season over-hyping (which is fine, but they are there for discussion/disagreemen) and, when I made an obvious point, you spun into a personal attack against me. Remember that when I start calling you out for your hypocritical ********. When it comes to pronouncements from on high, your house is made of some mighty thin glass, and you're certainly not anyone who should be tossing stones.

 

[Deus Irae]

You talking in this specific case or in all cases?

This specific case. This isn't Joe Thomas in his prime signing to replace some random stiff. Solder's not an elite LT, but he's above average.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

This specific case. This isn't Joe Thomas in his prime signing to replace some random stiff. Solder's not an elite LT, but he's above average.

Gotcya

I don't think Wynn is on Solders level but I do think he's our 2nd best OL'm rn.

I really can't speak to Brown & tbh I'm not expecting a ton. I've seen him play, NFL player but I'm really not expecting an impact starter.

I do think theres a chance our line could be better than last year & I don't really think that's a knock on Solder.

He had a lot going on the past few years & last year in particular took a min to adjust & get his legs under him so to speak. Cannon injured.

Lots of if's as always but if we can get a healthy year from the "big 5", Wynn, Cannon, Thuney, Andrews & Mason. I think we'll have a very good line. .

 

[Deus Irae]

Gotcya

I don't think Wynn is on Solders level but I do think he's our 2nd best OL'm rn.

I really can't speak to Brown & tbh I'm not expecting a ton. I've seen him play, NFL player but I'm really not expecting an impact starter.

I do think theres a chance our line could be better than last year & I don't really think that's a knock on Solder.

He had a lot going on the past few years & last year in particular took a min to adjust & get his legs under him so to speak. Cannon injured.

Lots of if's as always but if we can get a healthy year from the "big 5", Wynn, Cannon, Thuney, Andrews & Mason. I think we'll have a very good line. .

Wynn may turn out to be the next Joe Thomas, though that's statistically unlikely. He may turn out to be a complete bust, which is also statistically unlikely (given BB's 1st round drafting history). Only time will tell. As for whether he's the team's 2nd best OL as of right now, I doubt it, but it doesn't really matter where Wynn slots in today, anyway. He's a college kid transitioning to the pros, and he's got learning and improving to do. I'm content with hoping the kid's a quick learner, and just hoping that either he or Brown is ready to man the LT fort by the time game one of the regular season comes around.

 

[mgteich]

OK, as far as running backs are concerned, you saw a greater need than I did.

I never claimed rookies or FAs from other teams are worthless. What I said was that to assume that said players were already better than the departing starter was not reasonable. That doesn't mean that you can't hope they'll be better, or that you can't think that they'll improve enough to be better. It just means that it's not reasonable to assume that they are already better than the guy who just paid as the biggest of the NFL's OL big dogs.

And Fleming/Waddle starting last year because of injury issues doesn't change the fact that the starting OL was Solder/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Cannon, and that the projected starting OL this year, as of this moment, is Wynn or Brown/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Cannon

As for the RB, please... that's all in the thread. You declared the problem solved. The Patriots, along with some posters here, clearly did not buy that line of thinking. Do I really need to crack out the obligatory "but I guess you know best?" line of passive aggressive attack, or can we just accept the reality of the Patriots moves as a point made against you?

Your posts were typical off season over-hyping (which is fine, but they are there for discussion/disagreemen) and, when I made an obvious point, you spun into a personal attack against me. Remember that when I start calling you out for your hypocritical ********. When it comes to pronouncements from on high, your house is made of some mighty thin glass, and you're certainly not anyone who should be tossing stones.

 

[zydecochris]

As of now, and according to what we can take from Scar's comments:

Cannon is Cannon
Mason is Mason
Andrews is Andrews
Thuney is Thuney
Brown/Wynn is the Solder replacement.

The significant difference between last year and this year is an apparent disappointment who was shipped out by his team and may have to flip OT positions, and a draft pick, one of whom will be replacing Nate Solder, who was an above average LT. Nobody of any reasonable mind should already be arguing that this is stronger than last year.

It looks that way. Brown is a great pass blocker (at least on the right side) and a lousy run blocker. Against college competition (a key caveat), Wynn was really good at both, but especially run blocking.

I think Wynn will be a great run blocker right out of the gate. The question is if and when he can hold up against NFL competition pass blocking as a LT.

I think he is good enough that he will be in there somewhere for most of the snaps, particularly later in the season when he has more experience. I wouldn't be surprised if against normal to weak type of defenses it is Wynn, Thuney, Andrews, Mason, and Cannon (when uninjured) with Brown as backup. Against elite pass rushing teams (e.g., Denver, Jacksonville, Philadelphia) I wouldn't be shocked if it is Brown, Wynn, Andrews, Mason, Cannon.

Maybe they will try Thuney at Center but I'm not convinced, Brady has a long history of liking super-smart non-overpowering centers like Andrews and Koppen. By all accounts Andrews was lining everybody up and getting the calls correct almost from day one. I think it would take Thuney a while to get spun up to the same type of mind meld with Brady that Andrews has.

 

[mgteich]

Please indicate when the patriots last changed OL's depending on the opposition?

I believe that healthy linemen play, and that the best scenario is that the same lineman start every game at the same position. Absent injuries, a few reps in garbage time is all the backups should get. That being said, I would not be at all surprised if one of the starting OT's missed some games.

We'll see, but I like the "block the sun" OL with Brown and Wynn on the left side. However, I know that it is more likely that Brown is a backup, for Cannon, or the swing OT backup.

It looks that way. Brown is a great pass blocker (at least on the right side) and a lousy run blocker. Against college competition (a key caveat), Wynn was really good at both, but especially run blocking.

I think Wynn will be a great run blocker right out of the gate. The question is if and when he can hold up against NFL competition pass blocking as a LT.

I think he is good enough that he will be in there somewhere for most of the snaps, particularly later in the season when he has more experience. I wouldn't be surprised if against normal to weak type of defenses it is Wynn, Thuney, Andrews, Mason, and Cannon (when uninjured) with Brown as backup. Against elite pass rushing teams (e.g., Denver, Jacksonville, Philadelphia) I wouldn't be shocked if it is Brown, Wynn, Andrews, Mason, Cannon.

Maybe they will try Thuney at Center but I'm not convinced, Brady has a long history of liking super-smart non-overpowering centers like Andrews and Koppen. By all accounts Andrews was lining everybody up and getting the calls correct almost from day one. I think it would take Thuney a while to get spun up to the same type of mind meld with Brady that Andrews has.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Am pretty stoked about oline and Michel this offseason.

Just think the wild card is going to be the LT position. I imagine if they can somehow fit Wynn and Mason at guards with a much improved Andrews at center, the runs up the middle are gonna be the best since 04 like Kontra said. haven't had that here in a long time.

Got to admit, I'm intriqued by The aquisition of Brown and think BB and Scar are too. They saw an opportunity to get a player that may have been vastly underrated that they know can turn into a starting LT here. Especially with Skar coaching him up.

I also like the idea of Wynn being able to get a chance to prove himself at LT, but can't help but think Cannon or Brown will be the front runners. Especially with Waddle still in the mix somewhere.

Kind of like a no duh, but LT needs to be solved

 

[BelichickFan]

Kind of like a no duh, but LT needs to be solved

Between Brown and Wynn it will be. I doubt either will be as good at getting downfield on the run as Solder was but Solder was a fairly average pass blocker (to the eye and statistically), I have little doubt Brown or Wynn will be a better pass blocker than Solder.

As of now we lost Solder and Fleming while adding Cannon, Brown, Wynn. It cost us draft picks but we're better on the OL now.

 

[Deus Irae]

People here seem to like skipping over this. Players point it out all the time, though, so maybe it shouldn't be ignored

“It’s like night and day,” Evans said, via AL.com. “Just the intensity and also the athletes. Everybody’s good. Even though I was playing with great guys at Alabama, these are guys who are just as athletic as you and they know exactly what to do and they don’t make any mistakes. I think that’s the difference. . . .

“Regardless of how great the team you came from was, it’s always going to be faster in the NFL. So for me, I’m just trying to get as fast as I can possibly be and once I get to that level where I can be natural, I think everything else will fall into place.”

Rumor Mill – ProFootballTalk

 

[captain stone]

...I have little doubt Brown or Wynn will be a better pass blocker than Solder.

As of now we lost Solder and Fleming while adding Cannon, Brown, Wynn. It cost us draft picks but we're better on the OL now.

We don't know that, at all.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Feel free to explain how it's reasonable to simply assume that a player who's never played in the NFL is already better than Nate Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team. The various members of the Giants front office will, no doubt, be sure to read your response.

Or, if you'd rather, feel free to explain how it's reasonable to assume that a RT who was let go by his team for just a draft pick swap is going to transition to LT and is already better there than was Solder, even without getting any real field work done with the team.

Then, when you're done with that, perhaps you can revisit your thread telling us all about how the RB problem was "solved", and then help us to understand why, given that you'd already assured us that said RB problem was solved, the team still went out and got Hill and Michel.

But Cannon was out last year. It's possible the O-line could be better than last year's even with Solder's loss....