(Edited Title:) Writer thinks Zappe is winning the QB "battle"?

[sb1]

One thing I find really weird with this fanbase is this determination that the Bears game was a disaster for Zappe and displayed his inability to be a QB in this league, when fact is it was just a run of the mill bad performance, of the likes Mac (and pretty much every other young QB) has had multiple times in his career. I mean, I don't think he should start for the Patriots and if anything his ceiling is even lower than Mac's, but it's just funny to see that game be used as this definitive example of Zappe's flaws. It's like saying Mac Jones should never start for the team again after the New Orleans game at home in 2021.

When the league doesn't have tape on you lots of QBs can play well. When they do that story ends. Zappe's disaster against the Bears wasn't much different than Cooper Rush's against the Eagles. Both were benched for their starters after the game and rightfully so.... Zappe showed he can be a backup QB in the NFL but there's no evidence to date he's more than that. IMO. Certainly not enough to tell our starter to take a seat and stay there.

This isn't Bledsoe-->Brady like the author implies. Bledsoe had hit his ceiling. He wasn't going to get better. We don't know what Mac's ceiling is and Zappe while a likeable kid can't lace the GOAT's cleats.

 

[RodThePat]

When the league doesn't have tape on you lots of QBs can play well. When they do that story ends. Zappe's disaster against the Bears wasn't much different than Cooper Rush's against the Eagles. Both were benched for their starters after the game and rightfully so.... Zappe showed he can be a backup QB in the NFL but there's no evidence to date he's more than that.

It wasn't a disaster, though, it was a bad night. Not a particularly bad one, even. That's my whole point. It was a much better performance than Rush's against the Eagles, since you brought up the comparison. Sure, there's no evidence Zappe can start in the NFL, but that second half against Chicago isn't definitive proof he can't either. And it's treated as such by a huge portion of the fanbase.

 

[sb1]

It wasn't a disaster, though, it was a bad night. Not a particularly bad one, even. That's my whole point. It was a much better performance than Rush's against the Eagles, since you brought up the comparison. Sure, there's no evidence Zappe can start in the NFL, but that second half against Chicago isn't definitive proof he can't either. And it's treated as such by a huge portion of the fanbase.

Fair enough... "disaster" I guess is considering it was a national game. Just saying backup QBs have a limited shelf life as starters so sure a guy can look good for a while but they can't sustain it. Their job is to hold down the fort and Zappe did that.

I despised seeing Mac's hysterics when things weren't going his way. Zappe was a lot cooler and he's a more likeable kid at least IMO. More humble too. Which I guess is expected comparing a guy coming from a national powerhouse program vs a minor conference.

 

[Rob0729]

Zappe came in the Packers game last year cold. Nobody expected him to play and he did quite well going head to head with a HOF QB. The Pats were in the game all the way with a 3rd string rookie QB.

Zappe has been a Pro through all of this. I have no doubt that he has worked harder than Jones and that his next opportunity ( in the near future and in NE ) wont be squandered. There will be no question who this team can win with and who will drag everyone down.

Zappe was 10 for 15 for 99 yards and a TD and fumbled the ball away while Aaron Rodgers was 21 for 35 for 251 yards, 2 TDs, and an INT. And Rodgers was hot garbage early in the season last year. Let's not act like this was a huge QB duel last year.

And you have no proof that Zappe works any harder than Jones. Everyone on the Patriots praises Jones for his work ethic.

 

[Rob0729]

 

[RodThePat]

Fair enough... "disaster" I guess is considering it was a national game. Just saying backup QBs have a limited shelf life as starters so sure a guy can look good for a while but they can't sustain it. Their job is to hold down the fort and Zappe did that.

I despised seeing Mac's hysterics when things weren't going his way. Zappe was a lot cooler and he's a more likeable kid at least IMO. More humble too.

I think Zappe fared pretty well for a rookie 4th rounder thrown into the fire, but as you mentioned, the league is littered with guys that came in and had some early success in a similar position. I thought he was decisive and had good pocket presence especially considering the circumstances, but he didn't show me nearly enough to get why people became so enamored with the kid. I just think the coaching staff likes him and as of now he's done pretty much everything that we could have reasonably expected from him as a player, so I don't get the whole "Chicago game showed he's a bum" mindset.

 

[Wozzy]

Zappe to date doesn’t have an NFL level arm. There’s a good reason why he was projected to be drafted late and have a ceiling of backup QB.

Smaller school, he's only 6'1" tall... that's about it. Weak arm?

Yeah, Mac has a weak arm, even though we’ve seen him complete multiple 45+ yard passes that were entirely air yards. And Zappe, he has a weak arm also. How do we know? Because the Patriots drafted him and that’s the default position because Bill screwed us by letting the sacred cow leave or some BS…

Meanwhile, watch at the :25 mark:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=37yeoWpubgY

Zappe throws a 50 yard, all air yards strike at the combine… but he’s a Patriot so “noodle arm.”

Haters have to make stuff up when they have no actual proof. I’m concerned about Mac and Zappe’s decision making, they both have plenty of arm to do the job. Weak arm is the lamest reasoning in all pro football. QB's might throw over 40 yards 4-5 times a season, decision making is what ends most young QB's career's... not arm strength.

Maybe one day, one or both of our QB's will join the pantheon of other noodle armed QB’s like Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Joe Montana who were too weak armed to play QB in the NFL.

 

[sb1]

Smaller school, he's only 6'1" tall... that's about it. Weak arm?

Yeah, Mac has a weak arm, even though we’ve seen him complete multiple 45+ yard passes that were entirely air yards. And Zappe, he has a weak arm also. How do we know? Because the Patriots drafted him and that’s the default position because Bill screwed us by letting the sacred cow leave or some BS…

Meanwhile, watch at the :25 mark:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=37yeoWpubgY

Zappe throws a 50 yard, all air yards strike at the combine… but he’s a Patriot so “noodle arm.”

I doubt any QB would be at the combine at all if they couldn't make a throw like that in shorts.

Haters have to make stuff up when they have no actual proof. I’m concerned about Mac and Zappe’s decision making, they both have plenty of arm to do the job. Weak arm is the lamest reasoning in all pro football. QB's might throw over 40 yards 4-5 times a season, decision making is what ends most young QB's career's... not arm strength.

Maybe one day, one or both of our QB's will join the pantheon of other noodle armed QB’s like Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Joe Montana who were too weak armed to play QB in the NFL.

Brady always had an excellent arm. Most underrated part of his game.
You don't get drafted into MLB as a catcher if you don't have a strong arm.

 

[Rob0729]

I think Zappe fared pretty well for a rookie 4th rounder thrown into the fire, but as you mentioned, the league is littered with guys that came in and had some early success in a similar position. I thought he was decisive and had good pocket presence especially considering the circumstances, but he didn't show me nearly enough to get why people became so enamored with the kid. I just think the coaching staff likes him and as of now he's done pretty much everything that we could have reasonably expected from him as a player, so I don't get the whole "Chicago game showed he's a bum" mindset.

The only reason why I think the Chicago game is so significant is because the reason why he failed in the second half of that game is exactly why people don't think he is a starting QB. The Bears didn't even try to rush he much. They just held their ground and tried to flood the passing lanes and batted down balls on four successive drives. That is a major red flag. If you don't have to rush a QB to make him ineffective, he isn't a starter. That means you only need a three or four man pass rush the entire game and allows extra people in the backfield. Zappe's height was always considered an issue coming out of school especially since he is not a mobile QB.

Could they scheme up ways to get him better vision of the field and open some passing lanes for him? Sure. But I don't know if you can do that for a 17 game schedule. You can certainly do that for a few games if he is your back up. That is why I think a solid back up is his ceiling.

Zappe does have a lot things that could help him be a successful QB. He sells the play action far better than Mac and maybe even Brady did. He does make quick decisions. But I think his physical limitations are just too much to overcome.

Hey, I could end up being wrong. But I don't think I am.

 

[Wozzy]

I doubt any QB would be at the combine at all if they couldn't make a throw like that in shorts.

Either his arm is weak or it’s not.

Brady always had an excellent arm. Most underrated part of his game.
You don't get drafted into MLB as a catcher if you don't have a strong arm.

His draft profile said “weak arm,” and draft “experts” are never wrong. Same with Montana…

 

[RodThePat]

The only reason why I think the Chicago game is so significant is because the reason why he failed in the second half of that game is exactly why people don't think he is a starting QB. The Bears didn't even try to rush he much. They just held their ground and tried to flood the passing lanes and batted down balls on four successive drives. That is a major red flag. If you don't have to rush a QB to make him ineffective, he isn't a starter. That means you only need a three or four man pass rush the entire game and allows extra people in the backfield. Zappe's height was always considered an issue coming out of school especially since he is not a mobile QB.

Could they scheme up ways to get him better vision of the field and open some passing lanes for him? Sure. But I don't know if you can do that for a 17 game schedule. You can certainly do that for a few games if he is your back up. That is why I think a solid back up is his ceiling.

Zappe does have a lot things that could help him be a successful QB. He sells the play action far better than Mac and maybe even Brady did. He does make quick decisions. But I think his physical limitations are just too much to overcome.

Hey, I could end up being wrong. But I don't think I am.

I mean, you're extrapolating what happened over one half as representative of what would necessarily happen every time if teams chose to adopt the same strategy against Zappe. Mac has had games in which his perceived flaws coming out of college were a big part of the reason for his struggles, would that mean he's toast as a starter?

 

[stardawg]

The fact that Jones has proven nothing.

Hold on Mel Kiper.

We have seen 4 games.

I blame Patricia and the OL for that.

Imo it will be difficult to get to a SB with Mac or Zap and I'm not sure BB has fixed our OL problems.

 

[Rob0729]

I mean, you're extrapolating what happened over one half as representative of what would necessarily happen every time if teams chose to adopt the same strategy against Zappe. Mac has had games in which his perceived flaws coming out of college were a big part of the reason for his struggles, would that mean he's toast as a starter?

I am basing this on history. Short pocket passers have this problem. When was the last time a short pocket passer was successful? Short QBs who succeed are ones that can move outside the pocket to get open passing lanes.

I contend that is why Russell Wilson fell apart last year. He was good when he could move around. Now he is a pocket passer and he sucked.

The second half of the Bears' game just confirmed what people thought would happen.

Again, I could be wrong. But I still maintain that Zappe's physical traits will stop him from ever being a full time starter in this league.

 

[Hyped]

Mac was drafted at 15 overall.. Cam actually played well In camp.. and BB was labeling him the starter.. he slipped up when he left the team temporarily. Mac took his job. Won 10 games and brung a team to a playoff Berth. Mac is the clear QB for this team. The haters will have to find some new material after he bounces back this season.

One thing though...during that 2021 camp...Cam was getting all the reps with the first team up to the final pre-season game. Then all of sudden...Cam was released and Mac was handed the keys to the offense. IIRC, Cam played well in a pre-season game...leading a TD drive before sitting down and letting Mac finish the game.

 

[pazrul72]

Smaller school, he's only 6'1" tall... that's about it. Weak arm?

Yeah, Mac has a weak arm, even though we’ve seen him complete multiple 45+ yard passes that were entirely air yards. And Zappe, he has a weak arm also. How do we know? Because the Patriots drafted him and that’s the default position because Bill screwed us by letting the sacred cow leave or some BS…

Meanwhile, watch at the :25 mark:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=37yeoWpubgY

Zappe throws a 50 yard, all air yards strike at the combine… but he’s a Patriot so “noodle arm.”

Haters have to make stuff up when they have no actual proof. I’m concerned about Mac and Zappe’s decision making, they both have plenty of arm to do the job. Weak arm is the lamest reasoning in all pro football. QB's might throw over 40 yards 4-5 times a season, decision making is what ends most young QB's career's... not arm strength.

Maybe one day, one or both of our QB's will join the pantheon of other noodle armed QB’s like Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Joe Montana who were too weak armed to play QB in the NFL.

Air distance travelled is maybe 5% arm strength, it’s far more about the angle of release and how much air you put under it. Any NFL caliber QB, even the back ups and 3rd stringers, can throw it 50 yards. The question is does it look like a pass or a punt? Sure Josh Allen can probably throw it 70 yards versus Macs 60 but at that point you are talking at most 5 passes a year so who cares?

There is one route where arm strength matters and it isn’t the 50 yard bomb. It’s the 18 yard out. With proper timing it is indefensible, an automatic completion and first down. The problem is if the DB can break on it cuz it takes an extra .5 of a second to get there it’s a pick 6. High risk, high reward and Mac doesn’t have the arm to consistently make that throw. To your point a lot of the greatest QB ever didn’t and still won a lot of games. What Mac does have is impressive anticipation and touch so he needs routes where he can drop it in and let his receivers run, crossers, rub routes, and wheel should be his bread and butter. Even Brady, who grew to have an absolute gun for over the middle throws, had trouble with that out throw. Especially later in his career here, in fact his last pass as a patriot is exactly the route I’m talking and was exhibit one in my mind of why I was ok with the patriots moving on from him.

 

[Triumph]

Zappe was 10 for 15 for 99 yards and a TD and fumbled the ball away while Aaron Rodgers was 21 for 35 for 251 yards, 2 TDs, and an INT. And Rodgers was hot garbage early in the season last year. Let's not act like this was a huge QB duel last year.

I stated that Zappe played "quite well " which is a fact.

No INTs after watching the all star throw 3 vs Baltimore.

And you have no proof that Zappe works any harder than Jones. Everyone on the Patriots praises Jones for his work ethic.

The proof will be vs players on opposing teams.

 

[Real fan 02]

One thing though...during that 2021 camp...Cam was getting all the reps with the first team up to the final pre-season game. Then all of sudden...Cam was released and Mac was handed the keys to the offense. IIRC, Cam played well in a pre-season game...leading a TD drive before sitting down and letting Mac finish the game.

Agreed 100%.. however I remember reports were Mac was impressive in camp.. cam did play well and BB was giving cam a chance as he knew cam was dealt a bad hand the season prior. Cam pretty much got himself released.. that off season.. I'm eager to see Mac bounce back .

 

[Kasmir]

LOL: Sara Marshall == a different MusketFire writer -- just completely contradicted Gregoire:

Mac Jones is loudly winning the Patriots' quarterback battle

As the Patriots continue training camp this week, calls for Bailey Zappe to become QB1 should be silenced. Mac Jones is the starting QB and will be for 2023.

musketfire.com

 

[Wozzy]

Air distance travelled is maybe 5% arm strength, it’s far more about the angle of release and how much air you put under it. Any NFL caliber QB, even the back ups and 3rd stringers, can throw it 50 yards. The question is does it look like a pass or a punt? Sure Josh Allen can probably throw it 70 yards versus Macs 60 but at that point you are talking at most 5 passes a year so who cares?

There is one route where arm strength matters and it isn’t the 50 yard bomb. It’s the 18 yard out. With proper timing it is indefensible, an automatic completion and first down. The problem is if the DB can break on it cuz it takes an extra .5 of a second to get there it’s a pick 6. High risk, high reward and Mac doesn’t have the arm to consistently make that throw. To your point a lot of the greatest QB ever didn’t and still won a lot of games. What Mac does have is impressive anticipation and touch so he needs routes where he can drop it in and let his receivers run, crossers, rub routes, and wheel should be his bread and butter. Even Brady, who grew to have an absolute gun for over the middle throws, had trouble with that out throw. Especially later in his career here, in fact his last pass as a patriot is exactly the route I’m talking and was exhibit one in my mind of why I was ok with the patriots moving on from him.

Mac and Zappe have proven they can make all the throws... the notion that they "don't have arm strength to be starters" is crap.

They're comparable to Kirk Cousins, JimmyG, Tua Tagovailoa, Derek Carr, Goff, Matt Ryan, Prescott, Purdy and a bunch of other guys.

A guy who didn't have the arm strength to be a starter was Brian Hoyer, he struggled with the deep out... he wasn't a starter. Mac and Zappe don't have that problem.

 

[Rob0729]

I stated that Zappe played "quite well " which is a fact.

No INTs after watching the all star throw 3 vs Baltimore.

The proof will be vs players on opposing teams.

Zappe wasn't asked to do much and for what he was asked to do, not much, he did well. Mac could have done what Zappe did vs. the Packers. Any starting QB could. That isn't a knock on Zappe. It is just a fact that they managed him to death in that game.