Debunking Brady being "carried" to Super Bowls by his defense

[Ring 6]

Gronk? From 2010-2017 Brady was at his prime with the Patriots. Then again he has him in Tampa.

Gronk a 2nd highest receiving yards season would have been Rices 12th highest.

 

[gobesmug]

And the last point I'll make is this. Imagine Brady having someone like Rice in his prime for much of the early part of his career the way Montana did. I mean, the closest you can say is Moss and he only had him at his best for essentially one season.

Don't leave Roger Craig off either. Dude is a borderline HOF and was a great dual threat.

He was the first RB to get over 1000 yards rushing and over 1000 yards receiving in a season.

Basically it would have been like Brady having Marshall Faulk in his prime

 

[Ring 6]

He didn't have Gronk at his best during a lot of that. Gronk got hurt quite a bit, including prior to one of those Super Bowls that you like to continually point out they lost. When he was healthy - or healthy enough - that was when they finally won them - and the one down Tampa. That was only over the span of a few seasons.

In one of his losses his #1, Gronk was injured, in another bud top WR Cooks was knocked out of the game.

 

[Ian]

Gronk? From 2010-2017 Brady was at his prime with the Patriots. Then again he has him in Tampa.

And great, he had Gronk for a few full seasons, and (thankfully) later Edleman, who was probably even more important since he didn't win a ring without him. But Montana consistently had a better group around him collectively than Brady.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

And great, he had Gronk for a few full seasons, and (thankfully) later Edleman, who was probably even more important since he didn't win a ring without him. But Montana consistently had a better group around him collectively than Brady.

Montana's best receivers in his first two super bowls was Dwight Clark and some guy named Freddie Solomon. Rice was only with Montana for 5 years (1986-1990). It's a myth that Rice played the entire decade of the 80s with Joe Montana.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

In one of his losses his #1, Gronk was injured, in another bud top WR Cooks was knocked out of the game.

I guess we are playing the "should have" game

 

[Ian]

Rice was only with Montana for 5 years (1986-1990).

And Moss - in his "prime" - was only with Brady for one season. You can make the Gronk argument, but I'd put Rice and Moss together as equals due to their nature of play and I'd have to say Montana held the edge there.

 

[Ian]

I guess we are playing the "should have" game

LOL, And I'll give you the Super Bowl argument in terms of the stats, margin of victory etc, although I'll credit that to the better offensive weapons had by Montana for the blowout wins, and the stars they had on defense. I'd have to go back and look at how those games played out and I'm definitely not awake enough to do that tonight.

But I will absolutely say that the 49ers were consistently stacked offensively for him. If you start telling me Montana could have been successful with some of the guys Brady won with, we may have an issue

 

[Ian]

I know, I was at that game. 10th row - end zone. I witnessed James White's game winning touchdown right in front of me.

And also, those were pretty good seats. So you paid an awful lot of money to go to that game to root for a guy you don't seem to think a whole lot about win a game without a margin of victory that you feel was worthy enough? That's quite a commitment

I'd like to hope that 20-years from now we're debating the Mac Jones era vs Brady after Mac goes 4-0 to start his Super Bowl career. If I start saying he's better than Brady, you can pull this thread back out and use it against me. Until then, it's going to be a little tough

 

[Ian]

If Montana was throwing to Welker instead of Dwight Clarke he would be 3-1 in the superbowl

I saw this post and realized I need an "oof" reaction ... or something to that effect

 

[Ring 6]

I guess we are playing the "should have" game

No we are refuting your argument that he had comparable weapons.

 

[maust]

It's always amusing to hear clowns making the "Montana is undefeated in SB's" argument as a case for him being as good or better than Brady. Think about it, in their 'logic' Montana somehow ends up getting credit for losing earlier in the playoffs or not even getting his team there. It's patently ridiculous. Likewise the lack of true FA BS, the lack of FA meant a free spending owner (DeBartolo) could build a super team and keep it together as long as he pleased. If he needed to add a piece (Russ Francis) he could buy it from a cheap/broke owner (Sullivan). FA broke up the dynasty after dynasty pattern of the league.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Don't mind the laughing troll. He thinks he discredits the overwhelming majority of people who believe Brady stands alone as the GOAT ....as if a simple laugh emoji from him sets the world straight due to his special authority on the subject.

 

[maust]

Don't mind the laughing troll. He thinks he discredits the overwhelming majority of people who believe Brady stands alone as the GOAT ....as if a simple laugh emoji from him sets the world straight due to his special authority on the subject.

As a rule I don't sweat the small stuff and it doesn't get much smaller than the faux gradual 'student' tommymacbrady1012 who has been attempting to pass himself off as an upper crust student here for 13 years.

 

[Guts]

Sure, but we are not debating longevity here, where Brady has a major advantage. We are debating quality vs quantity in super bowls.

Availability is the best ability. Longevity counts for something too

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I know, I was at that game. 10th row - end zone. I witnessed James White's game winning touchdown right in front of me. And I'm not arguing that Brady isn't the GOAT. I am arguing merely about quality of super bowl performances, where I do think Montana has the edge.

It's always amusing to hear clowns making the "Montana is undefeated in SB's" argument as a case for him being as good or better than Brady. Think about it, in their 'logic' Montana somehow ends up getting credit for losing earlier in the playoffs or not even getting his team there. It's patently ridiculous. Likewise the lack of true FA BS, the lack of FA meant a free spending owner (DeBartolo) could build a super team and keep it together as long as he pleased. If he needed to add a piece (Russ Francis) he could buy it from a cheap/broke owner (Sullivan). FA broke up the dynasty after dynasty pattern of the league.

Don't mind the laughing troll. He thinks he discredits the overwhelming majority of people who believe Brady stands alone as the GOAT ....as if a simple laugh emoji from him sets the world straight due to his special authority on the subject.

Would you like me to use a clown emoji instead?

 

[sb1]

I don’t understand the value of taking the plays in a game and using them to created “expected points” when you actually have a true result of actual points.
The players that created the expectation of points either actually created the points or did not.

I think it's useful. It measures the quality of the play on offense or defense with context.

A 10 yard gain sounds good but on 3rd and 20 not so much. A defense that allows 5 yards on 4th and 10 sounds good but when that 5 yards puts the other team in FG range then not so much. Etc.

If a team drives 90 yards and then misses a FG yes the defense "allowed 0 points" but I don't think that 0 points means they did a great job on that drive. EPA solves that problem.

What are Expected Points Added (EPA) in the NFL | nfelo.app

Clearly just looking at Brady's EPA per dropback and his offense generating the same or more EPA per play than his defenses it's obvious that he was not carried in any way to his Super Bowls.

 

[sb1]

Joe Montana admits that Tom Brady is 'definitely' the best NFL player ever

The Hall of Fame quarterback settles the debate once and for all

www.cbssports.com

The man himself conceded this debate, just like Bill himself conceded the Bill vs Tom debate. What else is there to say?

And 4-0 is definitely not better than 7-3 just like 4 gold medals is not better than 7 golds and 3 silvers. The Super Bowl loser is still the champion of their conference. Losing in the Super Bowl doesn't take that away.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Joe Montana admits that Tom Brady is 'definitely' the best NFL player ever

The Hall of Fame quarterback settles the debate once and for all

www.cbssports.com

The man himself conceded this debate, just like Bill himself conceded the Bill vs Tom debate. What else is there to say?

And 4-0 is definitely not better than 7-3 just like 4 gold medals is not better than 7 golds and 3 silvers. The Super Bowl loser is still the champion of their conference. Losing in the Super Bowl doesn't take that away.

Yeah, pretty clear Montana was just saying that to get people off his back.

Montana says comparing QBs from different eras 'almost impossible'

A sixth Super Bowl win for Tom Brady would perhaps end any lingering debate about who is the NFL's greatest ever quarterback but Joe Montana, his rival for that title, said comparing players from different eras is too difficult.

www.reuters.com

Hall of Famer Montana, who was in Toronto this week promoting the online sports streaming service DAZN that will carry the Feb. 3 Super Bowl, said there is just no pure way to compare him and Brady given how much the game has changed since he retired in 1995.

“It’s almost impossible,” the 62-year-old Montana, who went undefeated without a single interception in four Super Bowls with the San Francisco 49ers in the 1980s, told Reuters when asked if there is a way to rightfully crown the greatest NFL quarterback of all-time.

 

[sb1]

Thanks for this! Over the years Colts, Jets, Steelers, Eagles, hell, fans from practically every team had been attacking Brady and Pats accomplishments. Recently its even been some Patriots fans using the same attacks. They all have their scrapbooks full of narrow arguments for all occasions armed and ready to fire the instant someone says something positive about him.

Oh yeah no doubt and I love that he is happy to shove it back in their faces. One of my favorite Brady moments was in Pittsburgh the home of the Brady and Patriots haters where he was giving all that trash talk it right back to the fans as much as he was taking it. And that TD and spike and staredown was awesome!

Gotta admit after he left I too was pretty obnoxious here talking about him at first but I was just really unhappy at the way the whole thing went down on both sides. Got over it after the 2020 season started and I'm really glad I did.

I don't see how any Pats fan could be anti GOAT. Not after 20 years of this. Not only giving us amazing moments and memories that any fan in any sport could only dream of having but making every single one of the Patriots and Brady haters eat crow and want seconds