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Debunking Brady being "carried" to Super Bowls by his defense

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sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Unless BB turns it around, he will not pass Shula and Landry for most wins, he will not have proven that he can win without Brady, and lastly will be viewed as only one of the greatest coach ever instead of undisputed GOAT.

Meanwhile, Brady's comparative greatness has surpassed BB. He has proven he can win outside the Patriot Way. He has obtained most of the major records for his position. He is largely considered the undisputed GOAT by a country mile.

Two years ago, we didn't know who was greater. Now we know.
I’m not sure Bill is undisputed GOAT coach right now.

Maybe he is if you look at rings only. Other than that what exactly makes Bill greater than say Vince Lombardi? I don’t know. Lombardi is an icon in not just football but all of sports and even has the freaking trophy named after him. Is Bill greater than Shula? Shula has more wins right now and his coaching tree is way more successful. It’s debatable how well Bill has done developing coaching talent. I guess we’ll see what happens to Josh this year. Gibbs? Gibbs won with 3 different QBs and none are in Brady’s league. Reid took two completely different QBs and systems to Super Bowls. Walsh and Landry were pioneers of the sport. John Madden has the highest winning percentage of all time and BB is not that close to that mark. Unfortunately Bill also has Spygate in his story.

Where Belichick does shine more than others is his ability (with a few exceptions coughnkealharrycough) to make lousy players decent and decent players good. That’s why he can find gold in the UDFA swamp more often than others.

But yeah it’s very much disputable who is GOAT coach. Bill and every other top coach is great at some things and inferior to their peers at others.

That’s why I put Bill on the very top level of coaches with a few other historical great coaches for now. Rebuild this team to a contender with Mac Jones and not Brady and he starts to separate himself from the pack. Imo.
 
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  • Agree
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sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
I sort of agree with that, but I would put it this way.

The split essentially put the pressure on both to win without the other. Brady winning his 7th cemented his status as the best ever and silenced all the idiots who were still claiming guys like Rodgers was a better QB. To watch him march through Brees, Rodgers, and then beat Mahomes absolutely shut everyone up. I was nervous for him because I didn't want to see his legacy take a hit because losing any of those would have been brutal, but he did what he needed to do and it was really a lot of fun watching it play out.

As for Belichick, you're right in that if he can't get them back to at least being a contender in the AFC, that's a problem. Winning a Super Bowl is a big ask, but at this point, I'd settle with being able to hang with the elites, and getting into or through the Divisional round has to at least be the next step. If he can at least get them back to that point, that's still better than 90% of other Hall of Fame coaches at the end of their careers. But how this past season ended, getting blown out in the playoffs, definitely can't happen again. That was a big hit and was a black mark against the coaching staff, especially considering the fact they never got off the field. If that becomes habitual, the chatter will definitely increase and that won't be a good thing.
I think it’s also getting tough to separate Bill the GM from the coach. We all know the mistakes made by Bill the GM over the years and it’s made the coach look not so great. But theyre the same guy and both come in one package. No chance Bill will stick around if Kraft tells him someone else will be GM and Bill can stay the HC.

Bills legacy as a defensive guru has definitely taken a major hit in the last few years. That wild card loss, the SB52 debacle and the defense showing it’s not up to par against good competition in recent years.
 
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Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
I’m not sure Bill is undisputed GOAT coach right now.

Maybe he is if you look at rings only. Other than that what exactly makes Bill greater than say Vince Lombardi? I don’t know. Lombardi is an icon in not just football but all of sports and even has the freaking trophy named after him. Is Bill greater than Shula? Shula has more wins right now and his coaching tree is way more successful. It’s debatable how well Bill has done developing coaching talent. I guess we’ll see what happens to Josh this year. Gibbs? Gibbs won with 3 different QBs and none are in Brady’s league. Reid took two completely different QBs and systems to Super Bowls. Walsh and Landry were pioneers of the sport. John Madden has the highest winning percentage of all time and BB is not that close to that mark. Unfortunately Bill also has Spygate in his story.

Where Belichick does shine more than others is his ability (with a few exceptions coughnkealharrycough) to make lousy players decent and decent players good. That’s why he can find gold in the UDFA swamp more often than others.

But yeah it’s very much disputable who is GOAT coach. Bill and every other top coach is great at some things and inferior to their peers at others.

That’s why I put Bill on the very top level of coaches with a few other historical great coaches for now. Rebuild this team to a contender with Mac Jones and not Brady and he starts to separate himself from the pack. Imo.
I think this is probably the best posts I've seen anyone bring up about this to this point. Good stuff @sb1.
 

MAC10

Big Mac Jones fan
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Unless BB turns it around, he will not pass Shula and Landry for most wins, he will not have proven that he can win without Brady, and lastly will be viewed as only one of the greatest coach ever instead of undisputed GOAT.

Meanwhile, Brady's comparative greatness has surpassed BB. He has proven he can win outside the Patriot Way. He has obtained most of the major records for his position. He is largely considered the undisputed GOAT by a country mile.

Two years ago, we didn't know who was greater. Now we know.

He took the Patriot way with him to Tampa...what do you think happened during Tampa's biweek when they got rid of risk-it no-biscuit? And the story isn't over yet. Brady's done next year. Belichick will keep going.
 

MAC10

Big Mac Jones fan
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I think it’s also getting tough to separate Bill the GM from the coach. We all know the mistakes made by Bill the GM over the years and it’s made the coach look not so great. But theyre the same guy and both come in one package. No chance Bill will stick around if Kraft tells him someone else will be GM and Bill can stay the HC.

Bills legacy as a defensive guru has definitely taken a major hit in the last few years. That wild card loss, the SB52 debacle and the defense showing it’s not up to par against good competition in recent years.

As pointed out many times, Brady has made plenty of mistakes in big games. And like the hypocrite you are, you keep saying its "a player's game." But when something goes wrong with the defense, it's Bill's fault. If something goes wrong with the offense (SB42, 46, 52), it's never on Tommy.
 
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ArchAngel007

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
As pointed out many times, Brady has made plenty of mistakes in big games. And like the hypocrite you are, you keep saying its "a player's game." But when something goes wrong with the defense, it's Bill's fault. If something goes wrong with the offense (SB42, 46, 52), it's never on Tommy.
Screenshot_20220424-121727_Chrome.jpg
You haven't moved on. You're on this Brady forum more than anyone
 

TheRainMaker

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2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
The reason why this debate will never end is because of how Bill started out as a HC. He got fired in Cleveland and started 5-13 in NE with a former first overall pick that just signed a $100M contract. A new QB starts and they magically go on a 20 year run. Then the QB leaves and Bill now has a mediocre record of 17-16 in the last two years. Meanwhile, the QB wins a Super Bowl with an idiot HC and almost got them to the NFCCG with all their injuries and awful secondary.

Look at what happened to Jimmy Johnson after life in Dallas? Miami was competitive, but not good enough due to the corpse of Marino and an anemic offense.

How about Mike Shanahan after Elway? Has one fluke year in 2005, then eventually flaming out in Denver. Then he has 3 out 4 losing season in Washington before getting fired.

Andy Reid had success with McNabb, then he leaves and Reid eventually gets fired. Was just hanging around in KC until they got Mahomes. Now they are a Super Bowl contender every year.

No coach can survive long term without consistent good play from the QB. None!
 
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ArchAngel007

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
The reason why this debate will never end is because of how Bill started out as a HC. He got fired in Cleveland and started 5-13 in NE with a former first overall pick that just signed a $100M contract. A new QB starts and they magically go on a 20 year run. Then the QB leaves and Bill now has a mediocre record of 17-16 in the last two years. Meanwhile, the QB wins a Super Bowl with an idiot HC and almost got them to the NFCCG with all their injuries and awful secondary.

Look at what happened to Jimmy Johnson after life in Dallas? Miami was competitive, but not good enough due to the corpse of Marino and an anemic offense.

How about Mike Shanahan after Elway? Has one fluke year in 2005, then eventually flaming out in Denver. Then he has 3 out 4 losing season in Washington before getting fired.

Andy Reid had success with McNabb, then he leaves and Reid eventually gets fired. Was just hanging around in KC until they got Mahomes. Now they are a Super Bowl contender every year.
TB12 wouldn't be the GOAT without BB I firmly believe that, but BB has benefitted more from having Tom than vice versa.

It is a players game and they ultimately decide the outcomes.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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Is Bill greater than Shula? Shula has more wins right now
Shula is clearly a great coach. But he was ON the rules committee, the opposite of Belichick.
John Madden has the highest winning percentage of all time and BB is not that close to that mark.
But for Dreith, Madden is Coryell or Schottenheimer.
Unfortunately Bill also has Crygate in his story.
FIFY. Shula was docked a top draft pick before the '72 season for breaking (obviously more serious) rules.
Bill and every other top coach is great at some things and inferior to their peers at others.

That’s why I put Bill on the very top level of coaches with a few other historical great coaches for now.
True.
Rebuild this team to a contender with Mac Jones and not Brady and he starts to separate himself from the pack. Imo.
Six Super Bowl titles isn't separation? Sure, it could have been more - but really, but for Belichick, it could have been much less, or none.
 

Patriot Missile

Pro Bowl Player
As pointed out many times, Brady has made plenty of mistakes in big games. And like the hypocrite you are, you keep saying its "a player's game." But when something goes wrong with the defense, it's Bill's fault. If something goes wrong with the offense (SB42, 46, 52), it's never on Tommy.
It’s a players game, It’s a team game. Both go hand in hand. He certainly could of played better in 42 and 46, the safety was boneheaded for sure. But he did put the team in a position to win with go ahead scores in both the games and the defense came up small. But yeah, the game plans and execution just sucked. As far as the Philly loss, besides his interception near the end zone you can argue thats one of the greatest SB’s a qb ever played and lost, defense wasn’t stopping anything and he basically put the team on his back and threw for 500+ yards despite losing Edelman to a acl early in the season. When it all comes down to it, it’s a team game with the coaches. All 3 phases. Don’t think Hightower played that game either. We all know Butler didn’t….health and availability play big parts as well.
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Six Super Bowl titles isn't separation? Sure, it could have been more - but really, but for Belichick, it could have been much less, or none.
True but it's hard though to think of rings as a coach accomplishment more than a player accomplishment.

Coaches can take a team that's lacking talent and make them look better than they really are. But they can't take a bad team and turn them into a championship one. Like we saw with the 2020 Patriots. Gotta have the players to do that.

Great players can carry coaches. We saw that with Peyton Manning taking Caldwell to a Super Bowl in 09. Caldwell is not a great NFL coach. Brady isn't the reason why BB is a great coach but he is the reason why BB is a 6 time champion.
 
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sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
As pointed out many times, Brady has made plenty of mistakes in big games. And like the hypocrite you are, you keep saying its "a player's game." But when something goes wrong with the defense, it's Bill's fault. If something goes wrong with the offense (SB42, 46, 52), it's never on Tommy.
It is a players game.

SB42, 46 and 52 wasn't on Brady or the offense in any way, the first two were defensive failures where Brady and the offense gave them the lead late and the defense blew it. The latter was a historic failure thanks to a coaching decision. The defense has also not forced the Buffalo Bills to punt in 9 quarters of football and counting. Isn't Bill supposed to be a defensive guru?

The 2019 wild card loss and the entire 2020 season were examples of offensive failure. Those Super Bowls weren't.
 

MAC10

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2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
It is a players game.

SB42, 46 and 52 wasn't on Brady or the offense in any way, the first two were defensive failures where Brady and the offense gave them the lead late and the defense blew it. The latter was a historic failure thanks to a coaching decision. The defense has also not forced the Buffalo Bills to punt in 9 quarters of football and counting. Isn't Bill supposed to be a defensive guru?

The 2019 wild card loss and the entire 2020 season were examples of offensive failure. Those Super Bowls weren't.

SB42 and 46 were mainly the offense, who had been averaging 30 PPG during the regular season and choked in the playoffs. Even if the defense didn't give up those plays to Tyree and Manningham, Brady didn't have good games. Isn't Tommy supposed to be the GOAT?

If you want to blame Bill for defensive lapses, then fine. But you can't say the offensive lapses weren't Brady's fault. WHo was the one who threw 6 INTs, fumble the ball 3 times, and intentionally ground the ball while in the end zone?
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
SB42 and 46 were mainly the offense, who had been averaging 30 PPG during the regular season and choked in the playoffs. Even if the defense didn't give up those plays to Tyree and Manningham, Brady didn't have good games. Isn't Tommy supposed to be the GOAT?

If you want to blame Bill for defensive lapses, then fine. But you can't say the offensive lapses weren't Brady's fault. WHo was the one who threw 6 INTs, fumble the ball 3 times, and intentionally ground the ball while in the end zone?
Tommy's terrible. He's a JAG. Worst 20+ years of our lives. Horrible in big games, played zero role in the wins. Definitely glad he's gone :rolleyes:
 

Actual Pats Fan

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SB42 and 46 were mainly the offense, who had been averaging 30 PPG during the regular season and choked in the playoffs. Even if the defense didn't give up those plays to Tyree and Manningham, Brady didn't have good games. Isn't Tommy supposed to be the GOAT?

If you want to blame Bill for defensive lapses, then fine. But you can't say the offensive lapses weren't Brady's fault. WHo was the one who threw 6 INTs, fumble the ball 3 times, and intentionally ground the ball while in the end zone?
Tom's not perfect, but he did his best. He didn't lay eggs. His ankle was hurt for 42.

Sheesh, I guess now I'm making excuses for the kid.

So he might have played better, but he definitely tried his hardest.
 

TheRainMaker

Voted most handsome by my mother
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
SB42 and 46 were mainly the offense, who had been averaging 30 PPG during the regular season and choked in the playoffs. Even if the defense didn't give up those plays to Tyree and Manningham, Brady didn't have good games. Isn't Tommy supposed to be the GOAT?

If you want to blame Bill for defensive lapses, then fine. But you can't say the offensive lapses weren't Brady's fault. WHo was the one who threw 6 INTs, fumble the ball 3 times, and intentionally ground the ball while in the end zone?
SB42 - Brady had a severe ankle sprain wearing a boot for two weeks. Why do you keep ignoring that? He clearly couldn't move during the game and uncharacteristically conceded when he saw a rusher in his face. It didn't help the O-line suddenly didn't look like they knew how to play football and Stephen Neal exiting the game. On the other hand, the D gets a ton of blame. Eli and the offense desperately tried to lose that game as I counted 4-5 easy turnovers the defense couldn't capitalize on that could've changed the game. In fact, Bruschi and Harrison have said before the way they played really bothers them. Harrison blames himself for not overruling Seau on the all out blitz that allowed the winning TD to Burress.

SB46 - I agree Brady didn't play well enough overall. He was clearly rattled by the Giants D-line seeing ghosts of 2007. However, he did settle in taking a 17-9 lead with tons of momentum, only to fall flat later in the game. I know people want to blame Welker, but they had plenty of time prior to put the game out of reach. The reason why I don't give Tom a pass here is because he knew the 2011 defense was awful and can't be trusted.
 
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Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
SB46 - I agree Brady didn't play well enough overall. He was clearly rattled by the Giants D-line seeing ghosts of 2007. However, he did settle in taking a 17-9 lead with tons of momentum, only to fall flat later in the game. I know people want to blame Welker, but they had plenty of time prior to put the game out of reach. The reason why I don't give Tom a pass here is because he knew the 2011 defense was awful and can't be trusted.
Gronk was hurt and he had Ochocinco as one of the people he was forced to fall back on. Pollard killed us, a healthy Gronk would have likely made a massive difference because the only other wideout other than Welker was Branch, who was out of gas at the end of the season.

Hernandez had a good game, but you were essentially down to three total receivers, which made it easy for New York's defense when they dropped all those guys into coverage. Having Gronk at 100% would have been a match-up nightmare because you would have had those two guys AND Welker and Branch. Just bad luck in that one.
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Gronk was hurt and he had Ochocinco as one of the people he was forced to fall back on. Pollard killed us, a healthy Gronk would have likely made a massive difference because the only other wideout other than Welker was Branch, who was out of gas at the end of the season.

Hernandez had a good game, but you were essentially down to three total receivers, which made it easy for New York's defense when they dropped all those guys into coverage. Having Gronk at 100% would have been a match-up nightmare because you would have had those two guys AND Welker and Branch. Just bad luck in that one.
Shannon Sharpe is no Brady or Patriots fan but he admitted Pats win if Gronk was healthy. I think a healthy Gronk even grabs that hail mary at the end. That would have been a crazy way to win a championship.


Too bad Hernandez couldn't bat it forward just a little further or Gronk would have had a great shot...
 

MAC10

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SB42 - Brady had a severe ankle sprain wearing a boot for two weeks. Why do you keep ignoring that? He clearly couldn't move during the game and uncharacteristically conceded when he saw a rusher in his face. It didn't help the O-line suddenly didn't look like they knew how to play football and Stephen Neal exiting the game. On the other hand, the D gets a ton of blame. Eli and the offense desperately tried to lose that game as I counted 4-5 easy turnovers the defense couldn't capitalize on that could've changed the game. In fact, Bruschi and Harrison have said before the way they played really bothers them. Harrison blames himself for not overruling Seau on the all out blitz that allowed the winning TD to Burress.

So now the injury excuses...Seattle had plenty of injury excuses when Cliff Avril (their best pass rusher) went down in SB 49 and Sherman playing on one arm. Not to mention Jeremy Lane got injured and they had some backup named Tharold Simon getting picked on by Brady.

He was healthy enough to lead two scoring drives in SB 42. No excuses.
 

MAC10

Big Mac Jones fan
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Tommy's terrible. He's a JAG. Worst 20+ years of our lives. Horrible in big games, played zero role in the wins. Definitely glad he's gone :rolleyes:

Yup, and Brady's perfect. :rolleyes:If he loses a game, it was someone else's fault. How dare Belichick not do more so Tommy can win 10 super bowls?!!?
 

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