Debunking Brady being "carried" to Super Bowls by his defense

[SHOWTIME15]

I don't see how any Pats fan could be anti GOAT. Not after 20 years of this. Not only giving us amazing moments and memories that any fan in any sport could only dream of having but making every single one of the Patriots and Brady haters eat crow and want seconds

I don't see how any Pats fan could be Anti-Bill. Not after 20 years of this.

 

[sb1]

Yeah, pretty clear Montana was just saying that to get people off his back.

Montana says comparing QBs from different eras 'almost impossible'

A sixth Super Bowl win for Tom Brady would perhaps end any lingering debate about who is the NFL's greatest ever quarterback but Joe Montana, his rival for that title, said comparing players from different eras is too difficult.

www.reuters.com

Maybe but the truth is staring him right in the face so why not just admit the obvious.

I don't think it's that simple about comparing QBs from different eras. Sure if you look at stats. But Brady's longevity still playing at an elite level, more championships than anyone else while playing at the most important position in sports, and most recently a near MVP season at age 44 puts him head and shoulders above everyone else. It's not even close.

 

[sb1]

I don't see how any Pats fan could be Anti-Bill. Not after 20 years of this.

That's a strawman. There aren't any anti-Bill Pats fans.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Maybe but the truth is staring him right in the face so why not just admit the obvious.

I don't think it's that simple about comparing QBs from different eras. Sure if you look at stats. But Brady's longevity still playing at an elite level, more championships playing at the most important position in sports, and most recently a near MVP season at age 44 puts him head and shoulders above everyone else. It's not even close.

No, Montana gets asked the GOAT question every year and he's tired of it. What he said in the 2019 interview is probably closer to what he's actually thinking than what he says on TV. Like Montana said, the rules of today allow QBs to play a lot longer without fear of getting hit that much, which is a huge advantage to QBs like Brady.

As far as Brady's 2021 season is concerned, he didn't play that much better than Matt Stafford. And Stafford had nearly 120 FEWER passing attempts. At some point you'll realize that Brady's high numbers are just the product of him throwing the ball more than anyone else. Montana had two seasons where he had 500+ attempts. In contrast, Brady had 16 seasons where he had 500+ attempts. Players in Montana's era just didn't throw the ball as much as they do today.

 

[sb1]

No, Montana gets asked the GOAT question every year and he's tired of it. What he said in the 2019 interview is probably closer to what he's actually thinking than what he says on TV. Like Montana said, the rules of today allow QBs to play a lot longer without fear of getting hit that much, which is a huge advantage to QBs like Brady.

As far as Brady's 2021 season is concerned, he didn't play that much better than Matt Stafford. And Stafford had nearly 120 FEWER passing attempts. At some point you'll realize that Brady's high numbers are just the product of him throwing the ball more than anyone else. Montana had two seasons where he had 500+ attempts. In contrast, Brady had 16 seasons where he had 500+ attempts. Players in Montana's era just didn't throw the ball as much as they do today.

Brady's longevity playing at an elite level, nearly winning MVP at age 44 and turning his new team from an also-ran to championship contention are proven facts. We can judge all of that that because it happened. He actually did it, its not a maybe or a guess.

Can't say the same about what Montana or any other top QB of the past would do in today's game. There's no way to know.

Also not sure why you laughed at me saying there aren't any anti-BB Patriots fans. There aren't. Criticizing Bill doesn't mean you're anti-Bill. Literally every fan of literally any team of literally any sport at any time has criticized their head coach from time to time that doesn't mean they are anti coach.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Brady's longevity playing at an elite level, nearly winning MVP at age 44 and turning his new team from an also-ran to championship contention are proven facts. We can judge all of that that because it happened. He actually did it, its not a maybe or a guess.

Can't say the same about what Montana or any other top QB of the past would do in today's game. There's no way to know.

Also not sure why you laughed at me saying there aren't any anti-BB Patriots fans. There aren't. Criticizing Bill doesn't mean you're anti-Bill. Literally every fan of literally any team of literally any sport at any time has criticized their head coach from time to time that doesn't mean they are anti coach.

Yes, we all know about Brady throwing 25 TDs in 2019 and then recruiting Gronk, Fournette, and Brown to transform the Bucs into SB winners in 2020.

No, you can't say what Montana would have done in the modern era, but you can't say what Brady would have done in the 80s. Just a hunch, but because it was much tougher on QBs in those days, I'm guessing that his numbers wouldn't nearly be as good.

Look no further than amfootball and 1960pats as examples of Bill-haters.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it's useful. It measures the quality of the play on offense or defense with context.

A 10 yard gain sounds good but on 3rd and 20 not so much. A defense that allows 5 yards on 4th and 10 sounds good but when that 5 yards puts the other team in FG range then not so much. Etc.

If a team drives 90 yards and then misses a FG yes the defense "allowed 0 points" but I don't think that 0 points means they did a great job on that drive. EPA solves that problem.

What are Expected Points Added (EPA) in the NFL | nfelo.app

Clearly just looking at Brady's EPA per dropback and his offense generating the same or more EPA per play than his defenses it's obvious that he was not carried in any way to his Super Bowls.

I don’t see value in statistics determining what should have happened instead of looking at what actually happened.

 

[sb1]

Yes, we all know about Brady throwing 25 TDs in 2019 and then recruiting Gronk, Fournette, and Brown to transform the Bucs into SB winners in 2020.

No, you can't say what Montana would have done in the modern era, but you can't say what Brady would have done in the 80s. Just a hunch, but because it was much tougher on QBs in those days, I'm guessing that his numbers wouldn't nearly be as good.

Look no further than amfootball and 1960pats as examples of Bill-haters.

No they're not. If anything your sig gets clapback and rightfully so.

So Brady recruited those guys. That's a bad thing? Maybe one day Mac will have the credibility and respect with players around the league to be able to do the same thing as Brady. He did all the right things to start moving in that direction at the pro bowl. But right now he's still just one likeable kid who had a decent rookie season and I doubt that alone will attract elite players to play for NE. Brady can snap his fingers and they'll line up to play for him.

Also Brady has played in two eras. Before Bill Polian's rules changes to benefit offenses and after. Brady won 2 SB's in the previous era. Also took some massive hits like the one by Nate Clements. So he would be fine. He would have done really well playing in Montana's era. A QB that can get the ball out faster than anyone shouldn't have much of a problem playing in that era.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

No they're not. If anything your sig gets clapback and rightfully so.

So Brady recruited those guys. That's a bad thing? Maybe one day Mac will have the credibility and respect with players around the league to be able to do the same thing as Brady. He did all the right things to start moving in that direction at the pro bowl. But right now he's still just one likeable kid who had a decent rookie season and I doubt that alone will attract elite players to play for NE. Brady can snap his fingers and they'll line up to play for him.

Also Brady has played in two eras. Before Bill Polian's rules changes to benefit offenses and after. Brady won 2 SB's in the previous era. Also took some massive hits like the one by Nate Clements. So he would be fine. He would have done really well playing in Montana's era. A QB that can get the ball out faster than anyone shouldn't have much of a problem playing in that era.

What does Mac have anything to do with the discussion? Must you disparage him in order to prop Brady up? And the 2001-2003 era is nowhere close to 1980s football. The highest scoring team in 2001 was the Rams with 503 points, while the highest scoring team in Montana's last year in SF was the Niners with 442.

And Brady is snapping his fingers at Gronk, who has so far not committed. Maybe he's wary of Brady throwing him more hospital balls like the one he threw when he got hurt against the Rams. And there's a reason why Brady is recruiting so many players. He knows he can't win with average talent like he used to in NE. BTW, last time I checked, Devonte Parker wanted to come HERE - I'm sure playing with Mac had something to do with it.

You're thumping your chest about Brady's near-MVP 2021 season, but fail to recognize that even a stiff like Stafford was almost as good in the regular season. Heck, Herbert in only his second season had nearly as many TDs as Brady. That should tell you something about how watered-down this league is now.

 

[MahomestoKelce]

Too much focus on actual SB games. A championship game is just as important as the SB itself. In the sense that one loss= bounced from playoffs. Montana keeps getting credit for only making it to 4 SB's and losing earlier. And no...I wouldn't think Montana>Brady if Brady was 5-5 or 6-6 in SB's.

He has more SB's than Montana. But it's the moments. Making every guy better than they really were. Salary cap. No stud receivers sans Moss for a few years.

A certain poster said "Where would Brady be without Amendola".

Seriously???? Where would Amendola be without Brady? He would've been out of the league 8 years ago. Brady had a HOF career 10 years before Amendola even became a Patriot.

Ever find it interesting how guys like Branch, Watson, Hogan etc were non factors and/or scrubs elsewhere. Yet...they were productive as Patriot players. I wonder why that is? Hmm....

 

[MahomestoKelce]

Can pick and choose moments where Montana was better than Brady. The problem is there are way more moments where Brady was better than Montana. That includes all postseason games.

Brady has the rings. SB MVP's. Stats. NFL MVP's. Eye test.

Montana was a big (Granted great) fish in a small pond when it came SB time. He faced alot of thrash defenses.

 

[MahomestoKelce]

Montana was incredibly injury prone. He even missed the 1991 and 1992 seasons after that devastating hit from Leonard Marshall in the 1990 NFCCG. With that said, IF he stayed healthy, played for 23 years, and had Walsh (or Belichick) as his coach for that period, he probably would have won 7 super bowls. He won 4 in 13 years as starter (4 in 11 as a Niner)...it's not unreasonable to think he could win 3 more in the remaining 7 years.

You realize this doesn't help his legacy. Correct?

Availability is the best ability. Albeit when he was available, he still retired the GOAT QB at that time.

 

[MahomestoKelce]

It's always amusing to hear clowns making the "Montana is undefeated in SB's" argument as a case for him being as good or better than Brady. Think about it, in their 'logic' Montana somehow ends up getting credit for losing earlier in the playoffs or not even getting his team there. It's patently ridiculous. Likewise the lack of true FA BS, the lack of FA meant a free spending owner (DeBartolo) could build a super team and keep it together as long as he pleased. If he needed to add a piece (Russ Francis) he could buy it from a cheap/broke owner (Sullivan). FA broke up the dynasty after dynasty pattern of the league.

Yep.

He absolutely gets more credit for losing earlier.

It's truly bizarre.

If Brady loses the next two SB's. Oh well.

7-5 is still better than 4-0.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Can pick and choose moments where Montana was better than Brady. The problem is there are way more moments where Brady was better than Montana. That includes all postseason games.

Brady has the rings. SB MVP's. Stats. NFL MVP's. Eye test.

Montana was a big (Granted great) fish in a small pond when it came SB time. He faced alot of thrash defenses.

MOntana lost all of his playoff games to teams that either won the super bowl that very year or won the super bowl shortly therafter, with the exception of the 1987 vikings. Brady lost to 2005 Broncos, 2009 Ravens, 2010 Jets, and 2019 Titans. All of them were trash teams. And really the only good teams he's beaten in the super bowl were the 2001 Rams and 2014 Seahawks. Montana beat 3 MVPs in the Super Bowl. So stop the nonsense.

 

[MahomestoKelce]

MOntana lost all of his playoff games to teams that either won the super bowl that very year or won the super bowl shortly therafter, with the exception of the 1987 vikings. Brady lost to 2005 Broncos, 2009 Ravens, 2010 Jets, and 2019 Titans. All of them were trash teams. And really the only good teams he's beaten in the super bowl were the 2001 Rams and 2014 Seahawks. Montana beat 3 MVPs in the Super Bowl. So stop the nonsense.

Beating three MVP's in the SB matters very little when the 49ers as a whole were much better than the opposition. Take the 2015 SB. Newton was MVP. But Denver had them beat in every other position. It was a blowout.

Why are we discussing what a team he lost to did one year later? That's irrelevant. Each season is an entity in itself. He lost to the 83 Skins, 85 Giants, 87 Vikings, and 93 Bills. None of those teams won the SB.

Brady has beaten more than two great teams in the SB: 01 Rams, 04 Eagles, 14 Seahawks, 18 Rams, and 20 Chiefs.

Brady played in more pickem or underdog SB's than Montana. Compare the spreads of SF's wins over Brady's.

Bottom line. Who was/is the better QB. Montana or Brady?

Because every pundit except Parker or Francesa will say Brady.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Beating three MVP's in the SB matters very little when the 49ers as a whole were much better than the opposition. Take the 2015 SB. Newton was MVP. But Denver had them beat in every other position. It was a blowout.

Why are we discussing what a team he lost to did one year later? That's irrelevant. Each season is an entity in itself. He lost to the 83 Skins, 85 Giants, 87 Vikings, and 93 Bills. None of those teams won the SB.

Brady has beaten more than two great teams in the SB: 01 Rams, 04 Eagles, 14 Seahawks, 18 Rams, and 20 Chiefs.

Brady played in more pickem or underdog SB's than Montana. Compare the spreads of SF's wins over Brady's.

Bottom line. Who was/is the better QB. Montana or Brady?

Because every pundit except Parker or Francesa will say Brady.

What? The 1989 Broncos were the number 1 ranked defense in the league and the 1984 Dolphins were the 6th ranked. In any event, they are as good as the 01 Rams or 14 Seahawks, if not better. The 04 Eagles and 18 Rams with Goff? LOL. The 20 Chiefs even have their starting tackles and were a middle of the pack defense.

 

[PatsWSB47]

The laughing troll needs another time out. Everyone is sick of him and virtually no one agrees with him. Ignore him. Please put him on ignore. He has nothing to offer. Laugh emoji coming here in a second but the jokes on him. He thinks someone is impressed with his juvenile responses and laugh emojis. There's not many members who post regularly that I've wished get banned over the years but the Patafans is better off without him. Antagonize, troll and ruin threads is about all he does. Who exists just to piss people off?

 

[PatsWSB47]

Yep.

He absolutely gets more credit for losing earlier.

It's truly bizarre.

If Brady loses the next two SB's. Oh well.

7-5 is still better than 4-0.

Here's the thing. At 45 this year, he can't erace his prior accomplishments. Anyone capable of critical thinking understands that. Brady has more Superbowl MVPs than anyone has Superbowls.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Here's the thing. At 45 this year, he can't erace his prior accomplishments. Anyone capable of critical thinking understands that. Brady has more Superbowl MVPs than anyone has Superbowls.

Wrong. Charles Haley has 5 super bowls. Might want to do some research. But I'm sure you'll accuse me of trolling when I present facts to you that you don't like.

 

[Guts]

Wrong. Charles Haley has 5 super bowls. Might want to do some research. But I'm sure you'll accuse me of trolling when I present facts to you that you don't like.

Haley was a monster