Jones Should Be Greatly Improved In 2022

[upstater1]

That was Terrell Owens.

No, I'm thinking of Keyshawn's press conference on Sept 12, 1999. He was really angry, Testaverde was out for the season, and then Keyshawn started choking back tears and was incredulous at losing Vinny.

These were his exact words before he started tearing up: "“You lose your starting quarterback, a guy who you’ve had success with and someone you respect and who is a team leader and it's like, ‘Now what?’"

 

[Tunescribe]

The thing people are ignoring is that it's just as likely that the team and McCorkle improve, as teams now have sufficient film on him to properly defend him and take away his strengths. I don't think it's a coincidence that he hit a wall since the bye. Teams were flat out stating how they were going to play him and what they were going to force him to do (of course we all took it as bulletin material). He wasn't able to overcome those strategies. There's a sense that McCorkle can't make all the throws, so teams are going to force him to try to make those throws. Also, Josh/Bill's unwillingness to let him air it out during the game at Buffalo didn't help those impressions. Right, wrong or indifferent, there may be a perception that McCorkle has a low ceiling. It'll take a lot of offseason work for him to improve on some of those throws. The uncertainty with the offensive coaching situation won't help. Hopefully, he can prove them wrong.

Do negative say-nothing posts like this somehow help your Brady retirement PTSD? That first sentence in particular is a real nonsensical doozy.

 

[sb1]

So the report I linked to (probably mis-)quoted Curran and Volin saying that the Pats could get a first rounder for Mac Jones in a trade.

If I had a team and I see BB of all people putting Mac Jones on the trade block one year after drafting him the only logical conclusion is Bill and the Patriots believe something is very wrong with the QB and they now have reason to believe he will never be any good. Again this is BB doing this, not some scrub GM of an awful team and when BB makes a move like that people will pay attention.

Why on earth would any team trade a first round pick for that? If I see BB do that I wouldn't even offer a day 2 pick.

 

[Ivan]

No, I'm thinking of Keyshawn's press conference on Sept 12, 1999. He was really angry, Testaverde was out for the season, and then Keyshawn started choking back tears and was incredulous at losing Vinny.

These were his exact words before he started tearing up: "“You lose your starting quarterback, a guy who you’ve had success with and someone you respect and who is a team leader and it's like, ‘Now what?’"

I wasn’t aware of that, I was obviously referring to Owen’s “ that’s my QB” breakdown,

 

[crawhammer]

Mac Jones' first year is very comparable statistically to Josh Allen's second year. Allen's breakout year was year 3. By an amazing coincidence, that was the year Buffalo brought in a true #1 WR in Stefon Diggs.

I have no doubt Jones can rise to that level with real talent to throw to. What scares me in NE's ability to get that talent.

Allen showed a lot of improvement in his second year. Statistically he had a really bad September which ended with an ugly performance against the Patriots. From there he had 17 passing TD's against only 3 INT's. He also had 9 rushing TD's in year two. So he was showing signs of becoming elite. He also has 14 TD's with only 1 INT in the postseason. Jones isn't rising to Allen's level, the athleticism and raw talent just isn't there. Really there are only a handful of quarterbacks in the league with ceilings potentially as high as Allen's... Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, Murray, R. Wilson (although he's probably not long for this group), and Herbert who runs more than you would think.

 

[*ChungFu*]

Jones' "ceiling" is unknown unless a 4.5 forty time and 70 yard tosses are on your wish list.
This obsession with trying to have the future revealed right now is tiresome.
There is too much that is out of Jones' control that will factor into what he becomes.
I've seen nothing to indicate that he will ignore what he can control.

 

[Ian]

The thing people are ignoring is that it's just as likely that the team and McCorkle improve, as teams now have sufficient film on him to properly defend him and take away his strengths. I don't think it's a coincidence that he hit a wall since the bye. Teams were flat out stating how they were going to play him and what they were going to force him to do (of course we all took it as bulletin material). He wasn't able to overcome those strategies.

Part of those issues, though, stemmed from their lack of personnel. What was telling was when they took away Harry and played Wilkerson was how open the other guys started to get because Wilkerson was so quick. I think if they're able to add another athletic receiver and get guys like Myers and Bourne in better match-ups, things will improve from that standpoint. That and not having White definitely hurt as Bolden was good out of the backfield but he's not as athletic as White was/is.

But Mac will just find the open guy. We're not going to have another all-world QB, those are rare and we were lucky to have one for nearly 20-years. Otherwise, it's tough for teams to take away everybody and the one strength Jones has is finding an open receiver and making a throw that allows them to make yards after the catch. I still think having Harry out there didn't help things and I'm pretty sure we can agree that they need to address that this offseason.

 

[XLIX]

Allen showed a lot of improvement in his second year.

This is true, but primarily because his first year was so atrocious. Jones's first year was lightyears ahead of Allen's.

Statistically he had a really bad September which ended with an ugly performance against the Patriots. From there he had 17 passing TD's against only 3 INT's. He also had 9 rushing TD's in year two. So he was showing signs of becoming elite. He also has 14 TD's with only 1 INT in the postseason. Jones isn't rising to Allen's level, the athleticism and raw talent just isn't there. Really there are only a handful of quarterbacks in the league with ceilings potentially as high as Allen's... Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, Murray, R. Wilson (although he's probably not long for this group), and Herbert who runs more than you would think.

The fact that you have to cherry pick out an entire 1/4th of the season to make him look good speaks volumes.

Josh Allen took a major step forward in year 3 when he got a legit pro-bowl caliber #1 WR. And now you're trying to compare Allen in year 4 to Jones in year 1.

 

[RedSleevesPinkStripes]

Brady ended his first season as a starter with a Super Bowl title and MVP so I don't think the comparison holds up. Second season he led the NFL in TD's and then he won another Super Bowl title and MVP in his third season. After his fourth season he had his third ring and a dynasty was born. Anyone calling Brady a system quarterback at any point of his young career, while winning 3 of 4 Super Bowls for a franchise that was previously 0-40, had their head up their a**.

Mac Jones on the other hand may be taking some unfair criticism but he hasn't necessarily proven anyone wrong. Yet.

First season as a starter, 2nd season in the league.

Regardless of how you feel about it 20 years later, it's the same type of crap talk.

I thought it was dumb then, I think it's dumb now.

 

[mgteich]

. Otherwise, it's tough for teams to take away everybody and the one strength Jones has is finding an open receiver and making a throw that allows them to make yards after the catch. I still think having Harry out there didn't help things and I'm pretty sure we can agree that they need to address that this offseason.

I think that we (almost) all want (and wanted) Wilkerson on the active roster instead of Harry. And most of us expect our passing game to much better after our unit is in its second year together: Jones, Agholor, Myers, Bourne, Henry and Smith (and even Wilkerson and Asiasi).

Yes, we need a 3rd down back as an upgrade to Bolden in that role.
======================
AGHOLOR
I expect that he will be better. Sure, we might trade him and use the cap money to sign a replacement that we hope will contribute more than he would have.
======================
I expect a late round draft choice at WR and a midlevel free agent. Another year and an improvement at 3rd down RB would likely lead to a major improvement. IMO, the major resources are needed at CB, LB, DT, and OT. (even assuming the re-signing of Karras, White and Folk).

 

[crawhammer]

This is true, but primarily because his first year was so atrocious. Jones's first year was lightyears ahead of Allen's.

I was talking more about the improvement Allen showed throughout year two. Not really from year one to year two, although he improved in that sense too.

Comparing the rookie seasons of Allen and Jones, I think you're ignoring what Allen did running the ball. After missing a few weeks with an injury, he ran for 95 or more yards in 4 of his last 6 games. He also started passing more effectively. Overall Allen did not have a good rookie season throwing the ball, but he showed flashes and some improvement there, while he was a force running the ball.

The fact that you have to cherry pick out an entire 1/4th of the season to make him look good speaks volumes.

Josh Allen took a major step forward in year 3 when he got a legit pro-bowl caliber #1 WR. And now you're trying to compare Allen in year 4 to Jones in year 1.

If I were cherry-picking then I would have selected various games throughout the season. He had a bad start year two but he played much better after the first month. Allen showed consistent improvement throughout his second season.

As for Jones we only have his rookie season so the rest is speculation. At this point I don't see the talent/skill set to complete on Allen's level. But again there are only a handful of other quarterbacks in the entire league that you could put in Allen's category.

First season as a starter, 2nd season in the league.

Regardless of how you feel about it 20 years later, it's the same type of crap talk.

I thought it was dumb then, I think it's dumb now.

I'll put it this way... anyone calling Brady a system quarterback in '01, '02, '03, etc. was an idiot. I don't think the same degree of ignorance applies to those currently questioning Jones.

 

[Rob0729]

Tom Brady struggled somewhat in year 2.

Marty Schottenhiemer figured out that if you made Brady move from his spot that he was less effective passing. An off season of 31bFL teams breaking down film on Mac should bring challenges.

But that was Brady's third year, not second. Brady already made a huge jump from year one to year two. He just didn't see the field in year one.

The jump is not because they have one year starting under their belt. It is because they have their first year in an NFL offseason conditioning and the ability to work with strength and conditioning and throwing coaches to work on their body and technique.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Why are we talking about Allen?

Allen was supposed to, according to almost every scout, be a really high-ceiling prospect who would struggle badly in the beginning as he improved his mechanics and learned a pro style offense. Jones was supposed to, according to many scouts, be a highy competent QB out of the box, but his improvement would be limited.

Now, of course this isn't always set in stone. Scouts are wrong often. Mac seemed to be able to make a lot of throws scouts would have told you he can't make. So it's not like he's limited simply because the scouts have decreed it.

But this seems like the same as "well...Peyton Manning threw 28 INTs as a rookie, so therefore so-and-so can also improve" or something along those lines. The fact is, the vast majority of rookie QBs who throw a lot of INTs turn out to be busts, and the the vast majority of rookie QBs are incapable of the same outlier level of improvement as Josh Allen.

There are always going to be cases you can cite, which doesn't make it anything close to an expected trend...it merely states that such improvement is possible, at least for some players, while ignoring that the overwhelming majority of them did not develop to reach higher levels.

 

[RedSleevesPinkStripes]

I was talking more about the improvement Allen showed throughout year two. Not really from year one to year two, although he improved in that sense too.

Comparing the rookie seasons of Allen and Jones, I think you're ignoring what Allen did running the ball. After missing a few weeks with an injury, he ran for 95 or more yards in 4 of his last 6 games. He also started passing more effectively. Overall Allen did not have a good rookie season throwing the ball, but he showed flashes and some improvement there, while he was a force running the ball.


If I were cherry-picking then I would have selected various games throughout the season. He had a bad start year two but he played much better after the first month. Allen showed consistent improvement throughout his second season.

As for Jones we only have his rookie season so the rest is speculation. At this point I don't see the talent/skill set to complete on Allen's level. But again there are only a handful of other quarterbacks in the entire league that you could put in Allen's category.


I'll put it this way... anyone calling Brady a system quarterback in '01, '02, '03, etc. was an idiot. I don't think the same degree of ignorance applies to those currently questioning Jones.

No one will ever be Brady. Mac will have his own career. All I was comparing is the reasoning behind each player's criticism, athleticism, or supposed lack thereof.

 

[upstater1]

Jones' "ceiling" is unknown unless a 4.5 forty time and 70 yard tosses are on your wish list.
This obsession with trying to have the future revealed right now is tiresome.
There is too much that is out of Jones' control that will factor into what he becomes.
I've seen nothing to indicate that he will ignore what he can control.

And the funny thing about this is that Mac Jones's 40 time is actually not only faster than Trevor Lawrence's time & Zach Wilson's, but also Josh Allen's, Pat Mahomes's and Joe Burrow's.

I'm not sure what this unathletic or slow stuff comes from but the combine 40 numbers show that Mac Jones is faster than most of them. Justin Fields is faster but not the guys listed above.

 

[NormZauchin]

Allen showed a lot of improvement in his second year. Statistically he had a really bad September which ended with an ugly performance against the Patriots. From there he had 17 passing TD's against only 3 INT's. He also had 9 rushing TD's in year two. So he was showing signs of becoming elite. He also has 14 TD's with only 1 INT in the postseason. Jones isn't rising to Allen's level, the athleticism and raw talent just isn't there. Really there are only a handful of quarterbacks in the league with ceilings potentially as high as Allen's... Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, Murray, R. Wilson (although he's probably not long for this group), and Herbert who runs more than you would think.

Did Brady ever rise to Allen's level? After all, he lacked Allen's athleticism and raw talent.

 

[Kasmir]

And the funny thing about this is that Mac Jones's 40 time is actually not only faster than Trevor Lawrence's time & Zach Wilson's, but also Josh Allen's, Pat Mahomes's and Joe Burrow's.

I'm not sure what this unathletic or slow stuff comes from but the combine 40 numbers show that Mac Jones is faster than most of them. Justin Fields is faster but not the guys listed above.

Mac's best 40 time at his (first) Pro Day was 4.68s, which is really good for a QB. Josh Allen clocked in an 4.76 at the combine. Burrow supposedly did a 4.59s 40, although ESPN had him listed at 4.9s. I'm not sure why Mac gets often listed at 4.83s when his best time was 4.68s...

 

[50-yard-line]

And the funny thing about this is that Mac Jones's 40 time is actually not only faster than Trevor Lawrence's time & Zach Wilson's, but also Josh Allen's, Pat Mahomes's and Joe Burrow's.

I'm not sure what this unathletic or slow stuff comes from but the combine 40 numbers show that Mac Jones is faster than most of them. Justin Fields is faster but not the guys listed above.

I mean, really, the guy ran 70 yards against PRO-BOWL defenders and had enough left in the tank to griddy his way through the end-zone.

BEAST!

EDIT: Might be my favorite play of the year.

 

[crawhammer]

Did Brady ever rise to Allen's level? After all, he lacked Allen's athleticism and raw talent.

Whatever Brady ever lacked in anything, he also was immeasurably clutch, which puts him in a class of his own. Overall I'm not expecting Allen to rise to Brady's level, but I don't consider that possible for any quarterback, Brady's been so accomplished for so long now that he virtually can't be caught. Maybe Mahomes had he beaten Brady in that ACFCCG and gone onto to win SB 53 or if he had beaten Brady in SB 55 because then Mahomes won be sitting on 2 SB's at age 26 and Brady would be "retired" with 6 SB's. It's over now though, Mahomes has to win 6 more SB's to even get in the conversation, and even still, he can't erase the 0-2 head-to-head with Brady in the postseason. Allen is not winning 7 SB's.

Just for kicks, here's how I see these careers shaking out...

Mahomes - 3 rings, 3 SB MVP's, 3 NFL MVP's
Allen - 2 rings, 2 SB MVP's, 2 NFL MVP's
Jackson - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 1 NFL MVP
Herbert - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 1 NFL MVP
Watson - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 0 NFL MVP
Burrow - 0 rings, 1 NFL MVP
Murray - 0 rings, 1 NFL MVP
Prescott - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 0 NFL MVP
Jones - 1 ring (post-Belichick), 0 SB MVP, 0 NFL MVP
Brady - 8 rings, 6 SB MVP's, 3 NFL MVP's

 

[Ivan]

And the funny thing about this is that Mac Jones's 40 time is actually not only faster than Trevor Lawrence's time & Zach Wilson's, but also Josh Allen's, Pat Mahomes's and Joe Burrow's.

I'm not sure what this unathletic or slow stuff comes from but the combine 40 numbers show that Mac Jones is faster than most of them. Justin Fields is faster but not the guys listed above.

Jones is a better athlete than he gets credit for. He’s not Russell Wilson but he’s close to Aaron Rodgers in terms of mobility.