Jones Should Be Greatly Improved In 2022

[NormZauchin]

Whatever Brady ever lacked in anything, he also was immeasurably clutch, which puts him in a class of his own. Overall I'm not expecting Allen to rise to Brady's level, but I don't consider that possible for any quarterback, Brady's been so accomplished for so long now that he virtually can't be caught. Maybe Mahomes had he beaten Brady in that ACFCCG and gone onto to win SB 53 or if he had beaten Brady in SB 55 because then Mahomes won be sitting on 2 SB's at age 26 and Brady would be "retired" with 6 SB's. It's over now though, Mahomes has to win 6 more SB's to even get in the conversation, and even still, he can't erase the 0-2 head-to-head with Brady in the postseason. Allen is not winning 7 SB's.

Just for kicks, here's how I see these careers shaking out...

Mahomes - 3 rings, 3 SB MVP's, 3 NFL MVP's
Allen - 2 rings, 2 SB MVP's, 2 NFL MVP's
Jackson - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 1 NFL MVP
Herbert - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 1 NFL MVP
Watson - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 0 NFL MVP
Burrow - 0 rings, 1 NFL MVP
Murray - 0 rings, 1 NFL MVP
Prescott - 1 ring, 1 SB MVP, 0 NFL MVP
Jones - 1 ring (post-Belichick), 0 SB MVP, 0 NFL MVP
Brady - 8 rings, 6 SB MVP's, 3 NFL MVP's

As I said to another poster, you must be really wealthy. With your ability to predict the future, making tons of money in the stock market and in sports betting should be child's play.

 

[captain stone]

Just listening to sports radio from outside New England and reading Twitter, it is surprising to me that Mac Jones is such a punchline. If you mention Mac Jones, the announcers just laugh and ridicule the guy. Even people like Wiggins on Boston radio ridicule him. Keyshawn. You can say ignore these people, but I really really don't remember a rookie being given a smaller chance of succeeding after starting an entire year.

Mac entered the NFL into an offense tailor-made (same as in Alabama) to highlight his strengths and hide his weaknesses, with a playbook he already knew inside & out... There is no way in the world that he would've enjoyed any of the success he had here in any of the other places that drafted QBs, nor would those QBs have done as well here as Mac did...this season...

 

[Ollie]

You, like a number of posters, equate a body builder physique with a quarterback's athletic talent. The evidence contradicting this position is monumental.

no, i don't think a body builders physique would make much difference. My point was that he is actually underdeveloped physically for a professional athlete and given the questions he has hanging over him regarding arm strength and general physicality becoming stronger and more athletic should help. Even pro golfers now understand that it can be helpful.

 

[upstater1]

no, i don't think a body builders physique would make much difference. My point was that he is actually underdeveloped physically for a professional athlete and given the questions he has hanging over him regarding arm strength and general physicality becoming stronger and more athletic should help. Even pro golfers now understand that it can be helpful.

He's still faster than Mahomes and Josh Allen. Becoming a little "more athletic" will make him truly special.

 

[venecol]

He's still faster than Mahomes and Josh Allen. Becoming a little "more athletic" will make him truly special.

Based on combine numbers? Allen ran at 19.98 mph during the WC game, that's pretty fast for a QB.

 

[upstater1]

Based on combine numbers? Allen ran at 19.98 mph during the WC game, that's pretty fast for a QB.

I don't think it's really worth getting into this since football speed is different than running a 40, but yes, in terms of 40s, Mac is at 4.68 and Allen is 4.76.

I don't think this makes anyone a better or worse runner except we can probably say that Mac is not unathletic nor does he lack speed.

Being faster doesn't make him a better runner. Mahomes ran a 4.8 and I think I prefer his style of running to Allen's.

 

[Wozzy]

no, i don't think a body builders physique would make much difference. My point was that he is actually underdeveloped physically for a professional athlete and given the questions he has hanging over him regarding arm strength and general physicality becoming stronger and more athletic should help. Even pro golfers now understand that it can be helpful.

Tom Brady entered the league a doughy 211 pounds, a year or so later after committing to the strength program he played at roughly 225 pounds.

Anyone who thinks getting stronger won’t help Mac thrive is deluding themselves.

 

[Wozzy]

First four years:

Tom Brady: 62 starts, 48-14 record, 1242-2015 completions, 61.6%, 13919 yards, 97 TD's, 52 INT's, 221 yards per game, 87.5 Rating

Mahomes: 62 starts, 49-13 record, 1528-2310 completions, 66.1%, 18707 yards, 151 TD's, 36 INT's, 302 yards per game, 106.2 Rating

Mahomes was way better ^ than Brady... seem like a fair comparison?

No, it's not, the league was different then, defense was allowed, the game was more physical so Brady is at a disadvantage here. Take away stats and look at averages (team offensive rankings) against their peers, Mahomes was still more explosive and better his first four years starting. I think that has a lot to do with Andy Reid, with scheme and weapons.

But let's set the QB's aside for a moment or say for the sake of argument that they were completely equal, let's look at the rest of the team... because after all, team matters to some of us.

Brady: 3 Super Bowl appearances/3 wins* (2001*, 2002, 2003*, 2004*)
Mahomes: 2 Super Bowl appearances/1 win (2018, 2019*, 2020, 2021)

TEAM Ranks

TEAM D Points (PPD):
Patriots: 6th/20th/2nd/3rd
Chiefs: 28th/15th/13th/21st

TEAM D Turnovers:
Patriots: 9th/14th/1st/4th
Chiefs: 8th/15th/13th/5th

TEAM Rushing YD's/TD's:
Patriots: 13th/7th, 28th/26th, 27th/24th, 7th/8th
Chiefs: 16th/7th, 23rd/13th, 16th/22nd, 16th/14th

Anyone who remembers 2003 accurately remembers that Antowain Smith was on his last legs. The team actually used Kevin Faulk, their third down back as the regular season back, and used the backs sparingly because they were dangerously thin at the position. In the playoffs the Pats leaned on Smith, ranked 1st in attempts, 4th in yards with 111 a game and 2nd in TD's. They weren't a great running team, Smith was old, but they were persistent and stayed balanced.

Starting field position:
Patriots: 8th/3rd/5th/11th
Chiefs: 3rd/12th/20th/15th

Field Goals Made:
Patriots: 1st/12th/4th/7th
Chiefs: 6th/9th/7th/4th

TEAM O ranking first four years (PPD):
Patriots: 7th/16th/19th/5th
Chiefs: 1st/2nd/4th/1st

So despite the Chiefs having the superior offense, again I think a lot of that is scheme, the Pats in the years they won the Super Bowl had better defense (points and turnovers), special teams and rushing attacks. I say scheme because the Pat's run the Ernhardt-Perkins offense which utilizes the run to set up the pass. They strangle opponents with time of possession on offense and create takeaways on defense. Less explosive, but more efficient.

Also the one year Mahomes won the ring in 2019 he had his best defense and run game, despite the rankings being a little behind 2020, his defense got a lot better as the season went on with the addition of Mike Pennel (run defense), other injured defenders and Mahomes and Tyreek actually missed some games with injury. They also ran their offense through their RB's in the postseason. They were the best team in the playoffs, the defense wasn't amazing but it was the best Mahome's played with in four years and were tied for 2nd in forced turnovers. I would add that if I took the time to compare 2014-2018 Pats to these same Chiefs, the rankings would look very similar.

For two decades Brady played on the best TEAMs... best defenses, best O-Lines, best weapons, best Special Teams and best Coaching.

Mahomes, not so much, offense yes... but these stats reveal the difference between one ring and three. Not magic QB's who play one phase out of three.

"Defense wins championships," "football is won in the trenches," these are some football maxims that have stood the test of time. I didn't coin them, but they're true nonetheless.

There's no such thing as magic QB’s or clutch genes…. that’s fanboy nonsense. The best teams usually play in the postseason, the best team almost always wins. Tom was on the best team more often and for two decades… this isn’t hard.

 

[NormZauchin]

Tom Brady entered the league a doughy 211 pounds, a year or so later after committing to the strength program he played at roughly 225 pounds.

Anyone who thinks getting stronger won’t help Mac thrive is deluding themselves.

I don't think anyone has taken a position that getting stronger won't help Mac. The issue has been whether his undeveloped body makes him, in the long run, inferior to those quarterbacks who have six-pack abs. With his supposedly flabby body, he still had a winning record and got the Pats into the playoffs.

 

[Wozzy]

I don't think anyone has taken a position that getting stronger won't help Mac. The issue has been whether his undeveloped body makes him, in the long run, inferior to those quarterbacks who have six-pack abs. With his supposedly flabby body, he still had a winning record and got the Pats into the playoffs.

Tom has been the least athletic starting QB in the league for 21 years… how’d that work out?

Protecting the ball and passing… is the job. We’ve had people telling us the running QB is the next evolution of the position since Randall Cunningham and Mike Vick. Hell before the invention of the forward pass all we had was running backs. Running QB’s are not new, not novel, not the next step in the evolution… they’re actually retro.

Passing is the job. If you can pass then running is gravy, a wonderful thing to have. But if you’re an inaccurate passer who can run like the wind, eventually other teams will catch on and force you to beat them from the pocket. Lamar Jackson is only getting worse, not better.

Passing is 1-2-3 on the list of important traits needed for the QB position. Mac is faster than Mahomes and a lot of guys considered “mobile” QB’s, which frankly is a race related dog whistle. He needs to develop like Mahomes and Russell Wilson as a passer. He needs to get stronger because it’s a long season and everyone he’s playing against is bigger and stronger.

 

[Ollie]

I don't think anyone has taken a position that getting stronger won't help Mac. The issue has been whether his undeveloped body makes him, in the long run, inferior to those quarterbacks who have six-pack abs. With his supposedly flabby body, he still had a winning record and got the Pats into the playoffs.

it's not about comparing him to qbs with six packs. If Mac gets stronger he will be better, thats it.

 

[crawhammer]

First four years:

Tom Brady: 62 starts, 48-14 record, 1242-2015 completions, 61.6%, 13919 yards, 97 TD's, 52 INT's, 221 yards per game, 87.5 Rating

Mahomes: 62 starts, 49-13 record, 1528-2310 completions, 66.1%, 18707 yards, 151 TD's, 36 INT's, 302 yards per game, 106.2 Rating

Mahomes was way better ^ than Brady... seem like a fair comparison?

No, it's not, the league was different then, defense was allowed, the game was more physical so Brady is at a disadvantage here. Take away stats and look at averages (team offensive rankings) against their peers, Mahomes was still more explosive and better his first four years starting. I think that has a lot to do with Andy Reid, with scheme and weapons.

But let's set the QB's aside for a moment or say for the sake of argument that they were completely equal, let's look at the rest of the team... because after all, team matters to some of us.

Brady: 3 Super Bowl appearances/3 wins* (2001*, 2002, 2003*, 2004*)
Mahomes: 2 Super Bowl appearances/1 win (2018, 2019*, 2020, 2021)

TEAM Ranks

TEAM D Points (PPD):
Patriots: 6th/20th/2nd/3rd
Chiefs: 28th/15th/13th/21st

TEAM D Turnovers:
Patriots: 9th/14th/1st/4th
Chiefs: 8th/15th/13th/5th

TEAM Rushing YD's/TD's:
Patriots: 13th/7th, 28th/26th, 27th/24th, 7th/8th
Chiefs: 16th/7th, 23rd/13th, 16th/22nd, 16th/14th

Anyone who remembers 2003 accurately remembers that Antowain Smith was on his last legs. The team actually used Kevin Faulk, their third down back as the regular season back, and used the backs sparingly because they were dangerously thin at the position. In the playoffs the Pats leaned on Smith, ranked 1st in attempts, 4th in yards with 111 a game and 2nd in TD's. They weren't a great running team, Smith was old, but they were persistent and stayed balanced.

Starting field position:
Patriots: 8th/3rd/5th/11th
Chiefs: 3rd/12th/20th/15th

Field Goals Made:
Patriots: 1st/12th/4th/7th
Chiefs: 6th/9th/7th/4th

TEAM O ranking first four years (PPD):
Patriots: 7th/16th/19th/5th
Chiefs: 1st/2nd/4th/1st

So despite the Chiefs having the superior offense, again I think a lot of that is scheme, the Pats in the years they won the Super Bowl had better defense (points and turnovers), special teams and rushing attacks. I say scheme because the Pat's run the Ernhardt-Perkins offense which utilizes the run to set up the pass. They strangle opponents with time of possession on offense and create takeaways on defense. Less explosive, but more efficient.

Also the one year Mahomes won the ring in 2019 he had his best defense and run game, despite the rankings being a little behind 2020, his defense got a lot better as the season went on with the addition of Mike Pennel (run defense), other injured defenders and Mahomes and Tyreek actually missed some games with injury. They also ran their offense through their RB's in the postseason. They were the best team in the playoffs, the defense wasn't amazing but it was the best Mahome's played with in four years and were tied for 2nd in forced turnovers. I would add that if I took the time to compare 2014-2018 Pats to these same Chiefs, the rankings would look very similar.

For two decades Brady played on the best TEAMs... best defenses, best O-Lines, best weapons, best Special Teams and best Coaching.

Mahomes, not so much, offense yes... but these stats reveal the difference between one ring and three. Not magic QB's who play one phase out of three.

"Defense wins championships," "football is won in the trenches," these are some football maxims that have stood the test of time. I didn't coin them, but they're true nonetheless.

There's no such thing as magic QB’s or clutch genes…. that’s fanboy nonsense. The best teams usually play in the postseason, the best team almost always wins. Tom was on the best team more often and for two decades… this isn’t hard.

All that is your longwinded way of saying Belichick was more relevant than Brady. Which considering, according to you, Belichick had all these Super three-phased Teams, how the hell did they go an entire decade without winning a Super Bowl?? Sounds like a massive coaching underachievement.

Defense wins championships holds true for exactly 3 teams over the past 25 years:
2000 Baltimore Ravens
2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers (who had a pro bowl quarterback)
2015 Denver Broncos

There were at least as many teams that won primarily because of their offenses:
2006 Indianapolis Colts
2009 New Orleans Saints
2019 Kansas City Chiefs

19 of the last 25 SB (76%) champions had top-10 ranked offenses in P/G.
14 of the last 25 SB (56%) champions had top-10 ranked offenses in Y/G.
14 of the last 25 (+1t) SB champions had higher ranked scoring offenses than scoring defenses.

And by the way, why didn't Alex Smith have 50 TDs under Reid?... in that scheme with all those weapons? Maybe Smith just isn't an all-world quarterback like Mahomes. Reid tried winning with a mediocre quarterback, he couldn't do it, most head coaches can't, Mahomes put that franchise over the top.

How about the 2000 Patriots? With that all-star roster and the genius HC, it seems like they should have won more than 5 games. 5-13 with Bledsoe, then suddenly 14-3 with the first of three Super Bowls in four seasons... What happened?? They got tougher in the trenches? Sudden infusion of weaponry? Bill spent more time in the "film room"? The answer is a switch of quarterbacks made the difference. Elite quarterbacks win championships and the Patriots won more of them because they had the best.

How do you think Tampa Bay went from literally the biggest loser professional franchise in history to a Super Bowl champion? And New England went from 16 consecutive division titles with one quarterback to 0 in two seasons without him?

 

[Wozzy]

All that is your longwinded way of saying Belichick was more relevant than Brady. Which considering, according to you, Belichick had all these Super three-phased Teams, how the hell did they go an entire decade without winning a Super Bowl?? Sounds like a massive coaching underachievement.

Defense wins championships holds true for exactly 3 teams over the past 25 years:
2000 Baltimore Ravens
2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers (who had a pro bowl quarterback)
2015 Denver Broncos

There were at least as many teams that won primarily because of their offenses:
2006 Indianapolis Colts
2009 New Orleans Saints
2019 Kansas City Chiefs

19 of the last 25 SB (76%) champions had top-10 ranked offenses in P/G.
14 of the last 25 SB (56%) champions had top-10 ranked offenses in Y/G.
14 of the last 25 (+1t) SB champions had higher ranked scoring offenses than scoring defenses.

And by the way, why didn't Alex Smith have 50 TDs under Reid?... in that scheme with all those weapons? Maybe Smith just isn't an all-world quarterback like Mahomes. Reid tried winning with a mediocre quarterback, he couldn't do it, most head coaches can't, Mahomes put that franchise over the top.

How about the 2000 Patriots? With that all-star roster and the genius HC, it seems like they should have won more than 5 games. 5-13 with Bledsoe, then suddenly 14-3 with the first of three Super Bowls in four seasons... What happened?? They got tougher in the trenches? Sudden infusion of weaponry? Bill spent more time in the "film room"? The answer is a switch of quarterbacks made the difference. Elite quarterbacks win championships and the Patriots won more of them because they had the best.

How do you think Tampa Bay went from literally the biggest loser professional franchise in history to a Super Bowl champion? And New England went from 16 consecutive division titles with one quarterback to 0 in two seasons without him?

No, it's not my way of saying BB was more relevant than Brady... it's my way of proving unequivocally TEAM was more important than any one person.

BB drafted Brady, we don't have to qualify that he was more important.

Brady has 7 rings because he played on teams with the best Defenses, OLines, Special Teams, Weapons, Coaching and yes, QB play... combined... that's why he had 3 rings by the time his rookie contract ended and Mahomes had one. Not some unquantifiable "clutch gene" that existed when he won and magically went missing when he didn't.

This ^ is garbage fanboy take, cheerleader nonsense, usually from someone who never played organized football at any level.

 

[upstater1]

First four years:

Tom Brady: 62 starts, 48-14 record, 1242-2015 completions, 61.6%, 13919 yards, 97 TD's, 52 INT's, 221 yards per game, 87.5 Rating

Mahomes: 62 starts, 49-13 record, 1528-2310 completions, 66.1%, 18707 yards, 151 TD's, 36 INT's, 302 yards per game, 106.2 Rating

Mahomes was way better ^ than Brady... seem like a fair comparison?

No, it's not, the league was different then, defense was allowed, the game was more physical so Brady is at a disadvantage here. Take away stats and look at averages (team offensive rankings) against their peers, Mahomes was still more explosive and better his first four years starting. I think that has a lot to do with Andy Reid, with scheme and weapons.

But let's set the QB's aside for a moment or say for the sake of argument that they were completely equal, let's look at the rest of the team... because after all, team matters to some of us.

Brady: 3 Super Bowl appearances/3 wins* (2001*, 2002, 2003*, 2004*)
Mahomes: 2 Super Bowl appearances/1 win (2018, 2019*, 2020, 2021)

TEAM Ranks

TEAM D Points (PPD):
Patriots: 6th/20th/2nd/3rd
Chiefs: 28th/15th/13th/21st

TEAM D Turnovers:
Patriots: 9th/14th/1st/4th
Chiefs: 8th/15th/13th/5th

TEAM Rushing YD's/TD's:
Patriots: 13th/7th, 28th/26th, 27th/24th, 7th/8th
Chiefs: 16th/7th, 23rd/13th, 16th/22nd, 16th/14th

Anyone who remembers 2003 accurately remembers that Antowain Smith was on his last legs. The team actually used Kevin Faulk, their third down back as the regular season back, and used the backs sparingly because they were dangerously thin at the position. In the playoffs the Pats leaned on Smith, ranked 1st in attempts, 4th in yards with 111 a game and 2nd in TD's. They weren't a great running team, Smith was old, but they were persistent and stayed balanced.

Starting field position:
Patriots: 8th/3rd/5th/11th
Chiefs: 3rd/12th/20th/15th

Field Goals Made:
Patriots: 1st/12th/4th/7th
Chiefs: 6th/9th/7th/4th

TEAM O ranking first four years (PPD):
Patriots: 7th/16th/19th/5th
Chiefs: 1st/2nd/4th/1st

So despite the Chiefs having the superior offense, again I think a lot of that is scheme, the Pats in the years they won the Super Bowl had better defense (points and turnovers), special teams and rushing attacks. I say scheme because the Pat's run the Ernhardt-Perkins offense which utilizes the run to set up the pass. They strangle opponents with time of possession on offense and create takeaways on defense. Less explosive, but more efficient.

Also the one year Mahomes won the ring in 2019 he had his best defense and run game, despite the rankings being a little behind 2020, his defense got a lot better as the season went on with the addition of Mike Pennel (run defense), other injured defenders and Mahomes and Tyreek actually missed some games with injury. They also ran their offense through their RB's in the postseason. They were the best team in the playoffs, the defense wasn't amazing but it was the best Mahome's played with in four years and were tied for 2nd in forced turnovers. I would add that if I took the time to compare 2014-2018 Pats to these same Chiefs, the rankings would look very similar.

For two decades Brady played on the best TEAMs... best defenses, best O-Lines, best weapons, best Special Teams and best Coaching.

Mahomes, not so much, offense yes... but these stats reveal the difference between one ring and three. Not magic QB's who play one phase out of three.

"Defense wins championships," "football is won in the trenches," these are some football maxims that have stood the test of time. I didn't coin them, but they're true nonetheless.

There's no such thing as magic QB’s or clutch genes…. that’s fanboy nonsense. The best teams usually play in the postseason, the best team almost always wins. Tom was on the best team more often and for two decades… this isn’t hard.

Are people forgetting our defense that got torched by Jake Delhomme?

Our defense got us there. Then crapped the bed. Something we'd see in future Super Bowls as well.

But Brady put up the 2nd greatest performance of all time in that Super Bowl.

Let's say that game is tomorrow, you have some time machine that can transport yourself back to the game, and also Pat Mahomes from 2020 to 2003. Mahomes is on the Patriots with Brady. Who do you start in that game?

Let me put it to you this way: Brady had the clutch gene!

The idea that some people are more capable of performing in dire circumstances than others, that's not a fairytale. It's pretty well known ins science. I'm not even saying Mahomes doesn't have it.

I am saying that Mahomes was under as much duress in the Super Bowl last year as Brady was against the Broncos in 2015. They both lost. BUT their performances in those games were night and day different.

 

[Wozzy]

Are people forgetting our defense that got torched by Jake Delhomme?

Our defense got us there. Then crapped the bed. Something we'd see in future Super Bowls as well.

But Brady put up the 2nd greatest performance of all time in that Super Bowl.

Let's say that game is tomorrow, you have some time machine that can transport yourself back to the game, and also Pat Mahomes from 2020 to 2003. Mahomes is on the Patriots with Brady. Who do you start in that game?

Let me put it to you this way: Brady had the clutch gene!

The idea that some people are more capable of performing in dire circumstances than others, that's not a fairytale. It's pretty well known ins science. I'm not even saying Mahomes doesn't have it.

I am saying that Mahomes was under as much duress in the Super Bowl last year as Brady was against the Broncos in 2015. They both lost. BUT their performances in those games were night and day different.

Brady also threw one TD in the entire 2001 three game postseason... along with one INT.

You know who else had the clutch gene on both of those magical drives in the postseason against the Raiders and Rams to win a ring?

The OLine, JR Redmond, Jermaine Wiggins and Adam Vinatieri... did they all have the clutch gene as well?

Or were they just a well prepared team, who practiced situational football, who ran the hill at Gillette at the end of practices so they were the most physically fit and mentally strong team in the NFL in the 4th quarter?

Brady watched this year's Super Bowl from home, does the clutch gene wane with age... why doesn't he have 20 rings?

It's the ultimate team sport, Tom is the best QB in history, but he only played one phase out of three. Get real.

 

[upstater1]

Brady also threw one TD in the entire 2001 three game postseason... along with one INT.

You know who else had the clutch gene on both of those magical drives in the postseason against the Raiders and Rams to win a ring?

The OLine, JR Redmond, Jermaine Wiggins and Adam Vinatieri... did they all have the clutch gene as well?

Or were they just a well prepared team, who practiced situational football, who ran the hill at Gillette at the end of practices so they were the most physically fit and mentally strong team in the NFL in the 4th quarter?

Brady watched this year's Super Bowl from home, does the clutch gene wane with age... why doesn't he have 20 rings?

It's the ultimate team sport, Tom is the best QB in history, but he only played one phase out of three. Get real.

2001 is different. It was his first year. But we've seen stuff from him in 2003, 2005, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, that shows in the biggest games, he hardly ever wilts. You can hold 2007 against him. But normally he excels in the highest pressure moments. Over and over again. No one is looking back and thinking about Wiggins and Redmond's contributions, trust me. Unless you're a family member (for all I know there are people here who may be!) When people think of the names Wiggins and Redmond's, they may think they'll either buy them a beer or otherwise it could have been any TE or RB in football to make those catches from Brady. We think the same thing about Reche Caldwell, Brandon Lloyd and Chris Hogan as well.

 

[Wozzy]

2001 is different. It was his first year. But we've seen stuff from him in 2003, 2005, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, that shows in the biggest games, he hardly ever wilts. You can hold 2007 against him. But normally he excels in the highest pressure moments. Over and over again. No one is looking back and thinking about Wiggins and Redmond's contributions, trust me. Unless you're a family member (for all I know there are people here who may be!) When people think of the names Wiggins and Redmond's, they may think they'll either buy them a beer or otherwise it could have been any TE or RB in football to make those catches from Brady. We think the same thing about Reche Caldwell, Brandon Lloyd and Chris Hogan as well.

In the 2016 playoffs they only got by the Texans because the D played great and because Dion Lewis scored a TD three different ways… Tom played poorly.

Are we giving Dion Lewis all the credit for that 2016 ring, or giving the lion’s share of the credit to the top ranked defense in the NFL?

No, because that would be dumb. About as dumb as attributing all success to any one player or aspect in a sport that has three phases and where coaching actually matters.

Tom Brady has zero tackles, sacks, interceptions, kick returns to his name. Nobody is demeaning Tom, it’s just keeping things in perspective.

 

[upstater1]

In the 2016 playoffs they only got by the Texans because the D played great and because Dion Lewis scored a TD three different ways… Tom played poorly.

Are we giving Dion Lewis all the credit for that 2016 ring, or giving the lion’s share of the credit to the top ranked defense in the NFL?

No, because that would be dumb. About as dumb as attributing all success to any one player or aspect in a sport that has three phases and where coaching actually matters.

Tom Brady has zero tackles, sacks, interceptions, kick returns to his name. Nobody is demeaning Tom, it’s just keeping things in perspective.

We disagree. Tom has played poorly in more than one game. Everyone knows this. My post was about the biggest games. There is a difference between what he does in those games and what other QBs do. And the difference doesn't come down to the Patriots having better players at other positions than the opposition. Dion lewis, Wiggins, Redmond, and a host of others have come up big, like Chris Hogan, etc. But these players are not stars, they are not any better than the guys on the other side of the ball that the other QB is playing with.

 

[Wozzy]

We disagree. Tom has played poorly in more than one game. Everyone knows this. My post was about the biggest games. There is a difference between what he does in those games and what other QBs do. And the difference doesn't come down to the Patriots having better players at other positions than the opposition. Dion lewis, Wiggins, Redmond, and a host of others have come up big, like Chris Hogan, etc. But these players are not stars, they are not any better than the guys on the other side of the ball that the other QB is playing with.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. TEAM.

It's why Brady has 7 rings, Eli Manning and Ben Rapistburger have 2, Mahomes/Rogers/Brees/Nick Foles have one and Marino has none. It's how Joe Gibbs won three different Super Bowls with three different average journeymen QB's.

Brady was not the only star on the Patriots... Seymour, Law, Mankins, Wilfork, Harrison, Milloy, Vollmer, Mayo, Gronkowski, McCourty, Collins, Hightower, Mason etc etc etc would disagree. "The Patriots won with less talent" is one of the worst takes in pro football history.

 

[sb1]

Getting back to Mac Jones

Should be interesting to see how these numbers improve if they do this coming season. A 50.9 QBR is by definition a tick slightly above a league average QB (50) in 2021 so there's definitely some room for improvement at the position. 7.3 YPA is kinda meh. Patriots do not have the defense yet to win with an average QB so hopefully with some help he can be better than that in 2022.


28 sacks isn't too bad for a rookie though. I saw that he was getting sacked at a clip of 2 per game up to the wind game. Some of his passing numbers regressed in the last month but he also took a lot less sacks. 0.8 per game for the rest of the season. Obviously the wind game was an anomaly but I wonder what changed if anything.