Wickersham Strikes: Belichick talked to Giants/Dolphins/Washington about coaching there in Brady standoff

[Wozzy]

Nothing meandering at all. It was a statement of fact pointing out that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. Teams couldn’t buy championships before the salary cap because free agency and the cap came in together. There was no unrestricted free agency before the cap.

The Pats borrow from future caps all the time. Check out the 2021 cap numbers for Smith, Henry and Judon compared to the average annual value of their deals. They put 3 voidable years in D. McCourty’s deal for goodness sake.

It’s so tiring of hearing the BB cultists always blaming someone or something else for his mistakes or just unpopular decisions. Look guys the cap or the devil didn’t make Bill do it. He purposely drove Brady away. It might still prove to be the smart move although it’s not looking good now. The final chapters are still to be written.

Before the salary cap and free agency players were basically indentured servants with no way out of a bad situation.

Teams great at players acquisition and drafting could hold onto players their entire career.

And yeah you’re correct, under these conditions BB would be terrible. His QB would be Brady (still) and his backup would be Jimmy G. He’d still have Chandler Jones, Gronk, Jamie Collins, Trey Flowers, Thuney along with a whole host of players who left to become the highest paid players in the league at their respective positions. Smart...

The Pats went on this spending spree because they have 3% of their cap allotted to the QB position, because they cleared cap space in 2020 and they’re also acutely aware the cap will rise significantly in two years with a new TV deal. The question is not what can they afford now but what they could afford after 2019.

He purposely drove Brady away... seriously dude, this isn’t Degrassi Junior High.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Nothing meandering at all. It was a statement of fact pointing out that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. Teams couldn’t buy championships before the salary cap because free agency and the cap came in together. There was no unrestricted free agency before the cap.

The Pats borrow from future caps all the time. Check out the 2021 cap numbers for Smith, Henry and Judon compared to the average annual value of their deals. They put 3 voidable years in D. McCourty’s deal for goodness sake.

It’s so tiring of hearing the BB cultists always blaming someone or something else for his mistakes or just unpopular decisions. Look guys the cap or the devil didn’t make Bill do it. He purposely drove Brady away. It might still prove to be the smart move although it’s not looking good now. The final chapters are still to be written.

So who are you blaming for this debacle of a post?

Nobody blames BB for anything. Why?................because basic math, time, and Lombardi's don't happen in a vacuum.

If you had any brains, you would be much more comfortable with events because it would have been obvious to you this was going to happen several years ago.

 

[Ian]

If Bill disagreed with trading JG why did he outright laugh at the idea of trading Brady to that same team?

I answered Ring 6 on this one, you'll have to go back and look as I threw out a theory (again - just speculating...who obviously knows what really happened). We've been unable to just have a general conversation without it turning into more than it needs to be

The narrative now is that the call must have happened during the season so that we can support the fake story that he wanted to trade Brady by saying he really did but maybe that happened during the season so the guy who wanted to dump Brady only laughed at being asked to trade him because in was mid season.
It’s taking a made up story and supporting it by making up hypotheticals to refute the facts that price it was made up.
kind of like politics.

That's not really what I was saying. Again, as I said, I was just speculating and I thought we were having a general discussion. You asked me what I thought might have happened and I told you. Doesn't mean I believe I'm right or that you're wrong. As I said, I was just trying to theorize how there could have been two reports and how it might have happened. I honestly don't care enough to argue about it or dig in my heels since I'm quite OK with just being wrong, even though only the people involved know what really happened and I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

Otherwise, I said several pages ago that all of this has already been discussed years ago, yet people in the media are again treating it like a new story since they obviously don't pay attention. However, as I've said, you can dig in certain parts of his report but it doesn't change the fact many of us ended up being surprised at the fact there were things we didn't expect to be true. And again...here we are. But whatever, we're on to 2021.

 

[Joker]

I answered Ring 6 on this one, you'll have to go back and look as I threw out a theory (again - just speculating...who obviously knows what really happened). We've been unable to just have a general conversation without it turning into more than it needs to be

That's not really what I was saying. Again, as I said, I was just speculating and I thought we were having a general discussion. You asked me what I thought might have happened and I told you. Doesn't mean I believe I'm right or that you're wrong. As I said, I was just trying to theorize how there could have been two reports and how it might have happened. I honestly don't care enough to argue about it or dig in my heels since I'm quite OK with just being wrong, even though only the people involved know what really happened and I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

Otherwise, I said several pages ago all of this has already been discussed years ago, yet people in the media are again treating it like a new story since they obviously don't pay attention. However, as I've said, you can dig in certain parts of his report but it doesn't change the fact many of us ended up being surprised at the fact there were things we didn't expect to be true. And again...here we are. But whatever, we're on to 2021.

as we all know, people talk about a myriad of possibilities as they live their lives...we are like plants in the sun sprouting up and branching off in many directions. This story can be applied to all 32 franchises and their management heirarchies (OK maybe NOT the Jets). What is important to us as fans is what IS. What people discuss as their careers unfold is just ordinary life. Wickersham is picking at a scab that HE created years back because he obviously has an anti-Patriots and anti-BB bias. On this there is no argument. I find his sports "journalism" to be reprehensible, in the mode of the yellow journalism propagated at the turn of the 20th century.

To be blunt,as I'm known to be,I see any reference to Seth Wickersham in print and I immediately fart in its general direction.

 

[captain stone]

or a mook...

or a crook...

Jimmy G was in the final year of his rookie deal, he had all the leverage.

He didn't want to sign an extension to be a backup. BB had to trade him or risk losing him for nothing.

Kraft forcing his hand is soap opera nonsense cooked up by local media hacks creating clickbait.

My only problem with the way the 2017 trade deadline went down is that Bill seemed to avoid seeking the best deal possible for Grop.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

How easily they forget. Gronk, with a 9 mill cap number was playing games by making a joke out of whether he was retiring or not. Belichick wanted a decision either way so he could address his roster and gronk clowned around implying maybe yes maybe no to draw attention to himself.
Belichick drew the line by saying if you won’t make a decision we will trade you.
Gronk suddenly ended the game playing.

Belichick was not going to let GRONK perform the Favre Annual Retirement Tango.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

My only problem with the way the 2017 trade deadline went down is that Bill seemed to avoid seeking the best deal possible for Grop.

If he loved JG that much, almost started a Civil War within the organization, turned down a top 15 pick from the Browns, and traded him to a team where he thought he'd succeed at the expense of a better pick, then here's my question:

WHY THE **** IS JIMMY G. NOT A PATRIOT RIGHT NOW?!?!?!

 

[Wozzy]

My only problem with the way the 2017 trade deadline went down is that Bill seemed to avoid seeking the best deal possible for Grop.

This is a case of fans misremembering things after the fact. Nobody wanted Jimmy for the 1st rounder the Patriots were asking, he sat on the trading block four months prior to the season. Which isn't surprising considering he started one and half games and got "hurt." It wasn't until a week before the draft the Patriots announced through Schefter that Jimmy wouldn't be traded and would start the season on the team. The best offers they reportedly received at that point were 2nd's from the Browns and the 49ers, Jimmy's agent told the Browns he wouldn't re-sign there and not to bother.

I get that in many fans minds BB is the nefarious bad guy always looking to sabotage... well himself, but this is all based off what fans thought they should get for Jimmy. Years earlier fans thought they would get a 1st for Matt Cassel, the best offer they received was a 2nd from the Chiefs and they had to eat the remainder of Vrabel's contract as he was well past his prime.

 

[Ring 6]

I answered Ring 6 on this one, you'll have to go back and look as I threw out a theory (again - just speculating...who obviously knows what really happened). We've been unable to just have a general conversation without it turning into more than it needs to be

That's not really what I was saying. Again, as I said, I was just speculating and I thought we were having a general discussion. You asked me what I thought might have happened and I told you. Doesn't mean I believe I'm right or that you're wrong. As I said, I was just trying to theorize how there could have been two reports and how it might have happened. I honestly don't care enough to argue about it or dig in my heels since I'm quite OK with just being wrong, even though only the people involved know what really happened and I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

Otherwise, I said several pages ago all of this has already been discussed years ago, yet people in the media are again treating it like a new story since they obviously don't pay attention. However, as I've said, you can dig in certain parts of his report but it doesn't change the fact many of us ended up being surprised at the fact there were things we didn't expect to be true. And again...here we are. But whatever, we're on to 2021.

I didn’t say your narrative nor did I say I am right and you are wrong.
I said that there is direct proof that wickersham is full of crap and the only way to buy his story is to say that his story, without a single named source or verification is true because when lynch said it wasn’t maybe belichick only laughed at the very suggestion because maybe he asked during the season and belichick would have gladly traded Brady if it wasn’t during the season. It’s a bridge too far for me.
I also disagree that anything he said was true other than a general idea that everyone isn’t happy about everything and some day the ride will end.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This is a case of fans misremembering things after the fact. Nobody wanted Jimmy for the 1st rounder the Patriots were asking, he sat on the trading block four months prior to the season. Which isn't surprising considering he started one and half games and got "hurt." It wasn't until a week before the draft the Patriots announced through Schefter that Jimmy wouldn't be traded and would start the season on the team. The best offers they reportedly received at that point were 2nd's from the Browns and the 49ers, Jimmy's agent told the Browns he wouldn't re-sign there and not to bother.

I get that in many fans minds BB is the nefarious bad guy always looking to sabotage... well himself, but this is all based off what fans thought they should get for Jimmy. Years earlier fans thought they would get a 1st for Matt Cassel, the best offer they received was a 2nd from the Chiefs and they had to eat the remainder of Vrabel's contract as he was well past his prime.

 

[Ring 6]

The roster in 2019 played one of the worst schedules the first 8 games. It went 4-5 the rest of the way when it had to play good teams which includes the first round playoff loss to the Titans. Then last year we went 7-9 so our record the last 25 games is 11-14.
Kraft has spent the most real money he ever has on the roster. By real money, I mean guaranteed money. He spent almost as much as he did when he bought the team. We had to because the roster was so bad from the poor drafting and not extending anyone from the 2010s. But perhaps the biggest blunder and the one that is going to cost us going forward is no succession plan at QB. Having Newton right now as day one starter pretty much ensures another losing season so that 11-14 record could easily become 18-24 by season's end or worse.

You can’t win every year. I will happily sacrifice 12-4, 7-9 then rebuilt for 8 straight afccg 5 Sb and 3 championships. Apparently you have different goals.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Here are some articles to be immediately discredited by Team Bill.


Mary Kay Cabot is a very well known and well respected Browns beat writer and not a rumor mongerer. In 2017:

Browns wil still try to trade for Jimmy Garoppolo, source says, and now have extra 2nd rounder

The Browns will still try to trade for Jimmy Garoppolo, league sources tell cleveland.com, and they now have an extra second-rounder to pull it off

www.cleveland.com

After the 49ers trade, Adam Schefter reported that the Browns really wanted Garoppolo but all indications were the 49ers were the team the Patriots wanted trade him to.

Adam Schefter: Browns badly wanted Jimmy Garoppolo, but Patriots more comfortable with 49ers

The 49ers brain trust has a lot of respect around the league.

www.ninersnation.com

It was, at best, a ****ty trade lacking any type of common sense or due diligence and leaving major draft pick ammo on the table and at worst a trade made out of spite.

There are numerous reports that the Patriots now want to trade with the 49ers to get JG back but the 49ers aren't budging...so much for that mutual goodwill.

 

[Wozzy]

Here are some articles to be immediately discredited by Team Bill.


Mary Kay Cabot is a very well known and well respected Browns beat writer and not a rumor mongerer. In 2017:

View attachment 32311

Browns wil still try to trade for Jimmy Garoppolo, source says, and now have extra 2nd rounder

The Browns will still try to trade for Jimmy Garoppolo, league sources tell cleveland.com, and they now have an extra second-rounder to pull it off

www.cleveland.com

After the 49ers trade, Adam Schefter reported that the Browns really wanted Garoppolo but all indications were the 49ers were the team the Patriots wanted trade him to.

Adam Schefter: Browns badly wanted Jimmy Garoppolo, but Patriots more comfortable with 49ers

The 49ers brain trust has a lot of respect around the league.

www.ninersnation.com

It was, at best, a ****ty trade lacking any type of common sense or due diligence and leaving major draft pick ammo on the table and at worst a trade made out of spite.

The Brown's GM Sashi Brown offered the Patriots the same exact compensation he offered the Bengals for backup AJ McCarron, but then forgot to file the necessary paperwork before the 4 p.m. deadline.

Browns realize they’ve made a huge mistake … again

The Browns are blowing it up again. ESPN reported Thursday that the team decided to fire executive vice president Sashi Brown, who was the head of the Browns’ personnel department, after near…

nypost.com

So not only did he fail to file paperwork after trading for McCarron, he failed to offer the Patriots anything substantial for Jimmy, but he also traded his first round pick to the Texans so they could take Deshaun Watson because his master plan called for drafting Deshone Kizer... it's moves like this that get you fired.

But I bet in the minds of the BB haters Sashi was a really really good GM who was only undone because Bill didn't trade him Jimmy for a second. Damn that BB, he's always ruining best laid plans...

 

[Wozzy]

Also another interesting side note about how the Browns were going to do something but didn't...

Benjamin Allbright reported that the Brown's coaches were all working late the night of the trade deadline but the front office went home at 5 PM, which pissed off the entire Browns coaching staff.

He also reported that Sashi Brown was unaware of the Garopollo trade to San Francisco over an hour after it happened when he was informed of it by his pissed off coaching staff.

When Michael Silver tweeted "Wait, all it took to get Garoppolo was a high 2? How did the Browns not get that trade done before the draft?" Hue Jackson's own daughter tweeted back at him "Can't land a player if you're not on the phones."

This is all neatly compiled here tweets and all.

www.barstoolsports.com/boston/we-now-understand-why-the-browns-didnt-trade-for-jimmy-garoppolo/

Facts suck, don't they.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Also another interesting side note about how the Browns were going to do something but didn't...

Benjamin Allbright reported that the Brown's coaches were all working late the night of the trade deadline but the front office went home at 5 PM, which pissed off the entire Browns coaching staff.

He also reported that Sashi Brown was unaware of the Garopollo trade to San Francisco over an hour after it happened when he was informed of it by his pissed off coaching staff.

When Michael Silver tweeted "Wait, all it took to get Garoppolo was a high 2? How did the Browns not get that trade done before the draft?" Hue Jackson's own daughter tweeted back at him "Can't land a player if you're not on the phones."

This is all neatly compiled here tweets and all.

www.barstoolsports.com/boston/we-now-understand-why-the-browns-didnt-trade-for-jimmy-garoppolo/

Facts suck don't they.

Umm-hmmm...do you think that makes Belichick look any better? It was well known that the Browns wanted JG. Whether or not you believed the reports that they were trying to trade for him, the reports themselves made the interest undeniable.

It's already been established the Patriots didn't put JG on the market. Belichick called the 49ers and made the trade after a long discussion. No other bidders. The Browns weren't even given a chance to make a trade offer.

How are you so blind not to see this? You think if a team didn't have some execs in their office the night of the trade deadline, Belichick is somehow absolved from this? His lack of communication, poor timing, and inability to contact anyone in an organization that's known to have signficant interrest in a player somehow isn't on him? Keep embarssing yourself, Team Bill member.

Facts don't suck. You just don't understand what they mean.

 

[Wozzy]

Umm-hmmm...do you think that makes Belichick look any better? It was well known that the Browns wanted JG. Whether or not you believed the reports that they were trying to trade for him, the reports themselves made the interest undeniable.

It's already been established the Patriots didn't put JG on the market. Belichick called the 49ers and made the trade after a long discussion. No other bidders. The Browns weren't even given a chance to make a trade offer.

How are you so blind not to see this? You think if a team didn't have some execs in their office the night of the trade deadline, Belichick is somehow absolved from this? Keep embarssing yourself, Team Bill member.

You either offer a first round pick or you don't... they didn't.

What Sashi Brown "would have done" after he got fired was worth a wet fart in a paper bag on a rainy day. Jimmy was on the market for four months prior to the season, the Browns had two first round picks, they should have packaged the second one and traded for Jimmy, they should have simply drafted Deshaun Watson instead of trading down for Kizer... lot's of would have could have.

The market determines worth. Nobody wanted Jimmy when he had one and a half games under his belt before getting injured. What you know now is worthless. This trade had precedent in the Cassel trade years earlier when fans thought he would fetch a first.

"They were disappointed," Reiss said of the fans' reaction to sending Cassel and Vrabel to KC for a second round pick. "They had visions of maybe a first round pick, multiple firsts. They were disappointed it was only a second round pick and Mike Vrabel, one of the great Patriots of the last decade of the championship run, was included in the trade. They thought it was a fleece job. Of course, what happened, I don't think a market developed like the Patriots thought it would and they took the best offer. Looking back at the trade, I think a lot of people were disappointed."

www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/11/16/2566111/kansas-city-chiefs-new-england-patriots-trade-matt-cassel

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You either offer a first round pick or you don't... they didn't.

What Sashi Brown "would have done" after he got fired was worth a wet fart in a paper bag on a rainy day. Jimmy was on the market for four months prior to the season, the Browns had two first round picks, they should have packaged the second one and traded for Jimmy, they should have simply drafted Deshaun Watson instead of trading down for Kizer... lot's of would have could have.

The market determines worth. Nobody wanted Jimmy when he had one and a half games under his belt before getting injured. What you know now is worthless. This trade had precedent in the Cassel trade years earlier when fans thought he would fetch a first.

"They were disappointed," Reiss said of the fans' reaction to sending Cassel and Vrabel to KC for a second round pick. "They had visions of maybe a first round pick, multiple firsts. They were disappointed it was only a second round pick and Mike Vrabel, one of the great Patriots of the last decade of the championship run, was included in the trade. They thought it was a fleece job. Of course, what happened, I don't think a market developed like the Patriots thought it would and they took the best offer. Looking back at the trade, I think a lot of people were disappointed."

www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/11/16/2566111/kansas-city-chiefs-new-england-patriots-trade-matt-cassel

Add Terry Pluto, another liar, to the list of journalists who are lying about Belichick's dealings with Cleveland. That's a lot of journalists who are lying about Belichick and all apparently to protect a former GM and coach who are no longer relevant to their access; they must have been lying all during the 2017 offseason and then lying after the fact with the same lies...I don't know how you keep track of the journalists who lie about Belichick, but it's great that you can sweep all of it away from a quote by Ian Rapaport, the king of scoop who tweets out known spin as reports without caring about the veracity.

Why Browns had no chance for Garoppolo -- Pluto

The Cleveland Browns could never figure out why they had no shot at trading for Jimmy Garoppolo.

www.cleveland.com

But the strange part was the Browns were willing to offer more for Garoppolo.

Much, much more.

At first, I thought, "I guess Hoyer was the key."

But I also thought, "There is something strange about this deal."

I made calls to several league sources.

On November 4, I wrote about how the Browns had last talked to the Patriots on October 28.

They couldn't even start a conversation. They were told Garoppolo wasn't available.

They said more than once, "If you are open to trading him, please call."

---
Apparently, the only team Belichick discussed the trade with was San Francisco.

Cleveland and other teams had been calling about Garoppolo. This would have been a perfect time for Belichick to leverage the deal, piling up offers -- maybe even putting together a three-way trade.

Never happened.
---
I received some criticism from readers when I wrote how the Browns never had a shot at Garoppolo in that November 3 story.

They said I was making excuses for former Browns vice president Sashi Brown.

There were other reports of the front office people going home early near the deadline. The Garoppolo deal was supposed to show they were not doing their jobs.

But the information I received back then was right, even though it made little sense to me.

Truth is: The Browns (and everyone else but San Francisco) never had a chance to discuss a Garoppolo deal.

I know that Brown was willing to part with Houston's first-round pick and other goodies. He would have been willing to help Belichick shop around for a backup quarterback to help the trade work.

The front office was especially baffled because they had made two trades with New England.

On August 25, 2016, they shipped Barkevious Mingo to the Patriots for a 2017 fifth-round pick.

On October 31, 2016, the Patriots traded Jamie Collins to the Browns for a 2017 third-round pick.

The Patriots have their own version of analytics and have used it for decades.

The Browns and Patriots were able to find common ground for other trades.

That's why the Browns were so confused when they were consistently frozen out of trade talks for Garoppolo.

And then even more baffled when they checked with other teams trying to deal for Garoppolo and heard the same story.

Only San Francisco was given a chance to trade for a franchise-changing quarterback.

 

[Wozzy]

Add Terry Pluto, another liar, to the list of journalists who are lying about Belichick's dealings with Cleveland. That's a lot of journalists who are lying about Belichick and all apparently to protect a former GM and coach who are no longer relevant to their access; they must have been lying all during the 2017 offseason and then lying after the fact with the same lies...I don't know how you keep track of the journalists who lie about Belichick, but it's great that you can sweep all of it away from a quote by Ian Rapaport, the king of scoop who tweets out known spin as reports without caring about the veracity.

Why Browns had no chance for Garoppolo -- Pluto

The Cleveland Browns could never figure out why they had no shot at trading for Jimmy Garoppolo.

www.cleveland.com

But the strange part was the Browns were willing to offer more for Garoppolo.

Much, much more.

At first, I thought, "I guess Hoyer was the key."

But I also thought, "There is something strange about this deal."

I made calls to several league sources.

On November 4, I wrote about how the Browns had last talked to the Patriots on October 28.

They couldn't even start a conversation. They were told Garoppolo wasn't available.

They said more than once, "If you are open to trading him, please call."

---
Apparently, the only team Belichick discussed the trade with was San Francisco.

Cleveland and other teams had been calling about Garoppolo. This would have been a perfect time for Belichick to leverage the deal, piling up offers -- maybe even putting together a three-way trade.

Never happened.
---
I received some criticism from readers when I wrote how the Browns never had a shot at Garoppolo in that November 3 story.

They said I was making excuses for former Browns vice president Sashi Brown.

There were other reports of the front office people going home early near the deadline. The Garoppolo deal was supposed to show they were not doing their jobs.

But the information I received back then was right, even though it made little sense to me.

Truth is: The Browns (and everyone else but San Francisco) never had a chance to discuss a Garoppolo deal.

I know that Brown was willing to part with Houston's first-round pick and other goodies. He would have been willing to help Belichick shop around for a backup quarterback to help the trade work.

The front office was especially baffled because they had made two trades with New England.

On August 25, 2016, they shipped Barkevious Mingo to the Patriots for a 2017 fifth-round pick.

On October 31, 2016, the Patriots traded Jamie Collins to the Browns for a 2017 third-round pick.

The Patriots have their own version of analytics and have used it for decades.

The Browns and Patriots were able to find common ground for other trades.

That's why the Browns were so confused when they were consistently frozen out of trade talks for Garoppolo.

And then even more baffled when they checked with other teams trying to deal for Garoppolo and heard the same story.

Only San Francisco was given a chance to trade for a franchise-changing quarterback.

Terry Pluto was referred to as a “Sashi Brown apologist” by the Cleveland fan base. He actually wrote an article recently how the Brown’s resurgence is in large part due to Brown.

New GM John Dorsey can thank Sashi Brown -- Pluto

Cleveland Browns new general manager John Dorsey takes over a team with five picks in the first two rounds of the 2018 NFL draft.

www.cleveland.com

Go read fan comments about Terry Pluto from that time, it’s hilarious.

Media members dislike/resent Bill, a guy who regularly undresses them for asking dumb questions... shocking.

The Patriots got a second for Chandler Jones, the guy who led the NFL in sacks. But you think Bill should have got more for Jimmy not based on any facts but on “because I think so.”

Media members have a reason to resent Bill, you guys think it’s because you could do a better job... laughable.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

i'm sure bb doesn't look back too fondly on his time in cleveland. he holds grudges which i can appreciate.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Media members have a reason to resent Bill, you guys think it’s because you could do a better job... laughable.

Right on cue: discredit the large list of credible journalists reporting facts you don’t like and cite the 1-2 outlier Tweets.

This is the quintessential final Team Bill response as the walls close in and you see a fool in your mirror.

You can’t do a better job than Bill, so you’re just an ungrateful hater like the rest of them, and you have an axe to grind.

Sad end game but it always comes down to this. Just like a cult. Wish you’d just declare this at the beginning, since it means you never had any intention of acknowledging any criticism of your hero.