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Wickersham Strikes: Belichick talked to Giants/Dolphins/Washington about coaching there in Brady standoff

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patfanken

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This is a case of fans misremembering things after the fact. Nobody wanted Jimmy for the 1st rounder the Patriots were asking, he sat on the trading block four months prior to the season. Which isn't surprising considering he started one and half games and got "hurt." It wasn't until a week before the draft the Patriots announced through Schefter that Jimmy wouldn't be traded and would start the season on the team. The best offers they reportedly received at that point were 2nd's from the Browns and the 49ers, Jimmy's agent told the Browns he wouldn't re-sign there and not to bother.

I get that in many fans minds BB is the nefarious bad guy always looking to sabotage... well himself, but this is all based off what fans thought they should get for Jimmy. Years earlier fans thought they would get a 1st for Matt Cassel, the best offer they received was a 2nd from the Chiefs and they had to eat the remainder of Vrabel's contract as he was well past his prime.
I never understood why there was so much traction to that the narrative that the Pats were offered a first for JG, especially a high first like the Browns had. THINK ABOUT IT!. How would you feel if the Pats offered a first for a QB who had 5 good but not great seasons in the NFL. Say a guy like Teddy Bridgewater. Anyone racing out the door to offer Carolina our first for Teddy? Or any other team? Or how about 5 good GAMES? There have been tons of failed QB's who have had 5 great games in this league, NO one was ready to offer a first of ANY of them. Gardner Minshew had about that number his rookie year on a horrible team with worse coaching. So why haven't I seen the posts pile up demanding we send our 2021 first for ol' Gardner? :rolleyes:

Then given all this, tell me, who in their right minds would offer the Patriots a first round pick for a good young prospect who managed 5 freaking solid but not great QUARTERS of NFL football. That's right NO ONE! And no one did back then, and anyone who claims they did are just plain lying or where part of the NFL draft planning committee who decided it was a really good idea to gather 50000 people in a small place to hear something they could hear on every electronic device on the planet safely. :rolleyes:
 

patfanken

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What hypothetical? I’m stating that they unwisely got rid of Brissett before the 2017 season, which left them with two quarterbacks. Brissett was good enough to be a solid, though unspectacular starter with the Colts that same season. So the larger point is that the Hoyer/backup quarterback need was self-inflicted. Or think of it like this:

Patriots trade: Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garoppolo
Patriots receive: Brian Hoyer, Second Round Pick, Philip Dorsett

Is that really better value than?

Patriots trade: Jimmy Garoppolo
Patriots receive: First Round Pick (or more...whatever the actual market bears)

That’s not worth it...not even close.

But if you’re asking at the time they traded JG, the eve of the deadline, what were the options, then what a terrible position to put themselves in, trading the best trade asset the org has had in twenty years to whichever team has the most sensible backup quarterback (and again, Hoyer sucks...imagine if he’d had to play in 2017...). Needlessly rushed...for months there were reports that teams wanted Jimmy but the Patriots had a steep asking price...what did they do to prepare for the end game? It seems nothing...and this why I believe Wickersham’s report.

When things seem to make no sense - and this didn’t, as many if us were closely monitoring the Jimmy G reports all during 2017 - it’s usually because there’s dysfunction.
Sorry Ice, youve gone off the rails, bud There was no first round offer for JG. Didn't happen, Just in the minds of people with a narrative to spread.....kind of like you. ;)
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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Sorry Ice, youve gone off the rails, bud There was no first round offer for JG. Didn't happen, Just in the minds of people with a narrative to spread.....kind of like you. ;)

Numerous journalists have reported it. But keep those fingers in your ears...there’s no way the most sought after QB of the 2016 and 2017 season would fetch more than a second round pick. All of the Browns beat writers and numerous Patriots beat writers, Adam Schefter, Seth Wickersham...all lying about similar reports because they separately concluded this would be a great fake narrative to make up :rofl:
 

patfanken

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Numerous journalists have reported it.
That doesn't make any of them right. There were just as many that debunked the story. I mean think about it. Does it really make sense to offer another team your first round pick for a young QB with just 5 good quarters of football on tape. Would you have done it? Would you be happy if the Pats had been that team giving up a first for a prospect who had only played 5 quarters of football. Forget about the injury issue of the time.

I mean JG now at least has had a full year where he led a team to a superbowl. Would you give up a first for him now? or even a 4th? (of course his contract is a factor in that equation, But my point is still sound. A first round pick is a HUGE asset for any team, especially one in the top 15 like I think Cleveland had that year. Spending it on a guy with only 5 quarters on tape just doesn't pass the smell test.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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That doesn't make any of them right. There were just as many that debunked the story. I mean think about it. Does it really make sense to offer another team your first round pick for a young QB with just 5 good quarters of football on tape. Would you have done it? Would you be happy if the Pats had been that team giving up a first for a prospect who had only played 5 quarters of football. Forget about the injury issue of the time.

I mean JG now at least has had a full year where he led a team to a superbowl. Would you give up a first for him now? or even a 4th? (of course his contract is a factor in that equation, But my point is still sound. A first round pick is a HUGE asset for any team, especially one in the top 15 like I think Cleveland had that year. Spending it on a guy with only 5 quarters on tape just doesn't pass the smell test.

Ken, you’d have to check my posts during the 2017 offseason. Yes, I absolutely, 100%, thought Cleveland should have traded their first round pick for JG (I argued for #1 overall while others argued for #12.) No, this wasn’t a homer opinion for the Patriots to rob the Browns. My argument was that if Garoppolo is the real deal, Cleveland is a playoff team; if Myles Garrett is the real deal, they’re still a 4-12 team. And Garoppolo had a much better success chance than Mitch Trubisky or really any college kid. I understand my opinion wasn’t shared by all, but it was also fueled by Mary Kay Cabot’s inside scoop that the Browns were going all-in for JG and hoping the Patriots would consider their offer. She specifically reported first rounder was on the table and they were going to sweeten the deal.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Ken, you’d have to check my posts during the 2017 offseason. Yes, I absolutely, 100%, thought Cleveland should have traded their first round pick for JG (I argued for #1 overall while others argued for #12.) No, this wasn’t a homer opinion for the Patriots to rob the Browns. My argument was that if Garoppolo is the real deal, Cleveland is a playoff team; if Myles Garrett is the real deal, they’re still a 4-12 team. And Garoppolo had a much better success chance than Mitch Trubisky or really any college kid. I understand my opinion wasn’t shared by all, but it was also fueled by Mary Kay Cabot’s inside scoop that the Browns were going all-in for JG and hoping the Patriots would consider their offer. She specifically reported first rounder was on the table and they were going to sweeten the deal.
Cleveland wasn’t going to offer a first rounder. Garoppolo was coming up on the trade deadline and it was the last year of his contract so you had a few games that season to decide what you wanted to do with him. It wasn’t worth it for anybody to trade that.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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Cleveland wasn’t going to offer a first rounder. Garoppolo was coming up on the trade deadline and it was the last year of his contract so you had a few games that season to decide what you wanted to do with him. It wasn’t worth it for anybody to trade that.

 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Yeah and as another poster said, plenty of reports since debunked that idea. It was never on the table. The Browns drafted Baker that year and were getting their pick of QB. Jimmy player 2 games and was on the last year of his contract. And the trade deadline was coming up where the Pats would be forced to trade him or let him walk and they could make an aggressive free agency offer if they wanted
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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Yeah and as another poster said, plenty of reports since debunked that idea. It was never on the table. The Browns drafted Baker that year and were getting their pick of QB. Jimmy player 2 games and was on the last year of his contract. And the trade deadline was coming up where the Pats would be forced to trade him or let him walk and they could make an aggressive free agency offer if they wanted

They drafted Garrett that year.

Almost every Browns beat writer reported in March and up until the preseason that the Browns wanted Garoppolo. Schefter reported the Patriots were stonewalling.

Those same Browns beat writers, after the trade deadline, reported that the Browns were shocked they weren’t even given a chance to make an offer after an offseason of inquiring about Jimmy G. The GM himself, Sashi Brown, said the Patriots refused to consider their offers in the offseason and didn’t even entertain the Browns at the trade deadline. Several other GMs (not from the Browns) said they were surprised JG was traded and didn’t have a chance to make an offer.

Numerous 49ers confirmed the Belichick called them, asked for a second round pick (rather than their best bid) and made the deal on the phone without asking other teams for bids.

This isn’t a conspiracy theory...these are well known, reputable journalists. The only outlier is Rapaport with his typical lazy tweet. Wickersham’s report doesn’t prove any of this but it aligns.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
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Look, I'm just going to end the JG stuff on this post.

To clarify, I never thought the Patriots made a mistake by not trading Garoppolo in the 2017 offseason. Because at the time, I think it was very reasonable to think Jimmy might be the Patriots long-term answer. Brady was past 40 and based on all historical precedent, it really was time for the wheels to fall off. Netting a first round pick for Garoppolo probably isn't worth the risk there...so I totally understand why the team would be so reluctant to trade at that time.

What I'm talking about as the major fckup, and what aligns with what Wickersham is saying, is the way he was traded at the trade deadline. By all accounts, this is no the way you go about building a market for a hot commodity at that position. I have no reason to believe that Sashi Brown, Mary Kay Cabot, and numerous other league sources are lying when they say the Browns were not given a chance to make an offer at the trade deadline. They weren't. And whatever the reason, that's inexcusable and wasn't in the team's best interest.

And if you look at that time, mid-2017, and note the odd circumstances around that trade, which if Wiickersham is to believed, may have been done partially out of spite/pride/emotion, you'll note that many dominos started to fall after that. Brady's negative thoughts on Tom versus Time; the Malcom Butler Super Bown benching and defensive collapse; the Rob Gronkowski trade/non-trade because he didn't want to play for Belichick; the Alex Guerrero drama; the Brady contract negotations turning sour; Gronkowski's subsequent retirement, etc.. Prior to the Garoppolo trade, any kind of drama or friction was certainly kept under wraps, if it existed. I believe that Wickersham has hit a nerve that people don't want to acknowledge and that he got much of this story right.

Now, all of this does coincide with a deteriorating roster that isn't being injected with any draft capital and a team realizing the end is near. So, if they'd still had a badass team would any of these things have mattered? Probably not so much.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
The Patriots got a second for Chandler Jones, the guy who led the NFL in sacks. But you think Bill should have got more for Jimmy not based on any facts but on “because I think so.”

Media members have a reason to resent Bill, you guys think it’s because you could do a better job... laughable.

Bill should've been able to receive more than an end-of-2nd-round pick for Chandler Jones too.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Bill should've been able to receive more than an end-of-2nd-round pick for Chandler Jones too.
The market determines worth, not what you, me or Bill thinks a player is worth.

If you don’t deal a player in the final year of a rookie contract that you have no chance at signing, you leave yourself open to the NFL’s arbitrary compensation process... in a league that generally hates the Patriots.

The idea that Bill should go to the Browns GM and what... threaten his life if he doesn’t give us a one is a joke. It takes two sides to make a deal and BB isn’t sneaking up on anyone.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
PatsFans.com Supporter
Such a spot on post. I have talking about 2017 and the awful decision making at Qb for a year and a half. It is absolutely mind blowing how Bill colossally mismanaged the most important position after telling us in 2014 that it was better to be early than late.

The resigning of Newton shows his hubris and lack of understanding of the landscape of today's NFL. You cannot coach your way out from under a terrible Qb even if he was a former league MVP. If they let this position toll another year it sets the rebuild further back. We are going nowhere without The guy at Qb.

BTW, something you didn't mention. He completely mismanaged the end of last season by not playing Stid when we were eliminated from the playoffs. It was a double whammy as we not only don't know what we have in Stidham but we won meaningless games down the stretch that if we had lost would have us picking in the top 10 with a chance at one of the top prospects instead of no man's land at 15.

I think you’re onto something a out the lack of understanding about the league landscape.

I don’t think that Bill ever de-valued Brady because he was jealous or it was some kind of alpha dog battle, but I think if you look at some past decisions by Belichick and Parcells, it reflects what you’re saying. Parcells, for one, outright said he didn’t want a celebrity quarterback and seemed to resent the QB being a superstar, and I think it’s clear the Patriots highly value QBs who are coachable and would steer towards the solid, unspectacular guy over the gunslinger, which is fine...but...

  • I think the Cleveland Browns had a championship roster in 1994, but Vinny Testaverde sucked...as he pretty much always did. He was the veteran QB who could provide leadership and manage a game. That was the narrative. Reality: he wasn’t good. They won in spite of him. A pro bowl QB probably wins a championship there. Vinny put up a pathetic 70 QB rating with 16 TDs and 18 INTs. On my QB era comparison ratings, he’s well below an average QB. There’s a lot of talk about how he replaced Kosar, but Testaverde was barely an upgrade.

  • But then Vinny reappeared with the Jets in 1998 with Parcells and Belichick. Probably his best season as a pro, but one wonders what an actually great QB would have done with Keyshawn Johnson, Wayne Chrenet, Curtis Martin, etc. Team got whitewashed in the AFCCG by Elway and the Broncos. Testaverde type players almost never win SBs, and he was half the player Simms was. Belichick’s 1994 Browns and Parcells 1998 Jets are championship teams if they have a better quarterback.

  • Bledsoe is another guy to mention here. All the advanced stats say he was well below average. I understand why Bill wouldn’t dump the franchise savior, but I think the sudden onset of Brady was also very much about Bledsoe being one of these “sabermetric” nightmare guys. Glad Bill dumped him. Good move.

  • But then, just to kind if illustrate this thinking further, guess who picks up the wonderfully overrated, mediocre-at-best, Bledsoe? Parcells...brings him on with the Cowboys, and of course, Bledsoe is still Bledsoe and fails to take the Cowboys to the next level.

  • What is my point? I think these situations show that the Parcells philosophy is rooted in the 1980s game manager myth. And I call it a myth because in another thread I went though it in depth: 80s had some outliers but football history - back to 1931 - shows the best quarterbacks are often the champions, so the 1980s game managers was kind of a freak thing and also because of high spenders and imbalanced payrolls. I also think it’s important to note the 1990 Giants were carried to the end by Simms before he got injured.

  • All that said, Belichick is a brilliant guy. He doesn’t follow Parcells on everything...but I hope this Cam thing isn’t what it appears to be.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Even if the story's true, what's this guy got against the Patriots?
Wicker-sham said Tommy kicked JimmyG out of the TB12 center, two other reporters proved this false and discovered Jimmy had his own mag key to get in whenever he wanted.

Wicker-sham is a Bronco’s fan, BB cut him off to access at Gillette after a hit piece about the Patriots serving warm gatorade... he’s a clown.
 

Lavictoire

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Such a spot on post. I have talking about 2017 and the awful decision making at Qb for a year and a half. It is absolutely mind blowing how Bill colossally mismanaged the most important position after telling us in 2014 that it was better to be early than late.

The resigning of Newton shows his hubris and lack of understanding of the landscape of today's NFL. You cannot coach your way out from under a terrible Qb even if he was a former league MVP. If they let this position toll another year it sets the rebuild further back. We are going nowhere without The guy at Qb.

BTW, something you didn't mention. He completely mismanaged the end of last season by not playing Stid when we were eliminated from the playoffs. It was a double whammy as we not only don't know what we have in Stidham but we won meaningless games down the stretch that if we had lost would have us picking in the top 10 with a chance at one of the top prospects instead of no man's land at 15.
It almost feels like when a long time valuable employee gets fed up and quits the boss tries to play like no big deal, nobody is indispensable, we can do without him.
 

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