Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Rob0729]

Peyton Manning had a terrible year that season. He threw 23ints and the colts finished 6-10.

Before you blame being on a bad team, the prior 2 years the colts went 13-3 and 10-6, and the season after went 10-6.

Peyton played terrible that year and with Peyton the Pats don't even make the playoffs that year. Remember with Drew Bledsoe the Pats were 0-2 before Brady took over and went 11-3.

Another huge factor that's been ignored until this year is Brady's leadership. Peyton is not nearly on the same level as Brady.

Do you really think Peyton would have been cool going on the field as a team instead of it being all about him?

So are you arguing that Manning went from one of the top QBs in 2000 to a garbage QB in 2001 to a top QB in 2002 and league MVP in 2003? So for that one year he lost all his talent and then got it back the following year? Don't you think the fact that Edgerrine James missed ten games have something to do with this? You don't think having Jim "Playoff?!? You kidding me! Playofffs?!?" Mora as his head coach who couldn't adapt to adversity?

I just threw Manning's name out there. Any top QB probably could have won the Super Bowl for the Patriots. Just differently. The Pats won on defense that year. They won the Super Bowl on defense that year. Brady's drive sealed the win and was an amazing drive, but the Pats won because they shut down the Greatest Show on turf.

And wouldn't have trusted Manning to do that final drive in New Orleans or the final drive in the Snow Bowl, but I think a player with the skills Manning had at that point could have not needed those drives because they could have done what Brady was doing in 2004 and beyond. I think Manning could have scored more than 10 point in the first 58 minutes of the Super Bowl.

Again, I am not trying to take away from Brady. He just wasn't a finished product in 2001. And even if he was, the Pats hadn't taken the training wheels off of him year and let him carry the team. This team up until 2004 was all about winning on defense and having the offense just being efficient.

Not directing this specifically to you, but I just don't get why people are so offended when people suggest Brady took several years to become an elite QB. I feel that it bolsters his legacy. I am more impressed with a guy like Brady who had to be the hardest worker in the room being the first one at Gillette and the last one to leave to become elite than a guy like Manning (who probably really hard himself) but was "The Guy" basically from almost birth. Brady earned his GOAT status not just because he had God given talents but he consistently worked harder than everyone else to improve his game even after he became elite.

 

[venecol]

Just checking in on anything new we can criticize Bill on today?

No but there's a push for starting a Little Steven forum.

 

[gobesmug]

The elite Brady of today is the same elite Brady that told Bob Kraft the he was "best decision the Patriots ever made" back in 2000. No he didnt have experience or all the answers to the test yet but he had the obsession to be great every day. Let me amend that. He was the same elite Brady that played in Michigan. People saw a difference in him the second he had his first start. I actually saw a difference that preseason in 2001. We didn't know of course of how great he would become. No one did but a lot of people said he had "it" He maintains "it" even now, 20 years later. Only in hindsight with the benefit of history can we see that hes always been the GOAT.

Exactly. Brady was elite in college and won the Rose Bowl. He wasn't some kid Bill discovered. Brady made Brady.

So are you arguing that Manning went from one of the top QBs in 2000 to a garbage QB in 2001 to a top QB in 2002 and league MVP in 2003? So for that one year he lost all his talent and then got it back the following year? Don't you think the fact that Edgerrine James missed ten games have something to do with this? You don't think having Jim "Playoff?!? You kidding me! Playofffs?!?" Mora as his head coach who couldn't adapt to adversity?

I just threw Manning's name out there. Any top QB probably could have won the Super Bowl for the Patriots. Just differently. The Pats won on defense that year. They won the Super Bowl on defense that year. Brady's drive sealed the win and was an amazing drive, but the Pats won because they shut down the Greatest Show on turf.

And wouldn't have trusted Manning to do that final drive in New Orleans or the final drive in the Snow Bowl, but I think a player with the skills Manning had at that point could have not needed those drives because they could have done what Brady was doing in 2004 and beyond. I think Manning could have scored more than 10 point in the first 58 minutes of the Super Bowl.

Again, I am not trying to take away from Brady. He just wasn't a finished product in 2001. And even if he was, the Pats hadn't taken the training wheels off of him year and let him carry the team. This team up until 2004 was all about winning on defense and having the offense just being efficient.

Not directing this specifically to you, but I just don't get why people are so offended when people suggest Brady took several years to become an elite QB. I feel that it bolsters his legacy. I am more impressed with a guy like Brady who had to be the hardest worker in the room being the first one at Gillette and the last one to leave to become elite than a guy like Manning (who probably really hard himself) but was "The Guy" basically from almost birth. Brady earned his GOAT status not just because he had God given talents but he consistently worked harder than everyone else to improve his game even after he became elite.

I'm saying he had a terrible year by his standards.

Also Peyton was not a good outdoor QB at that point in his career. No way he wins that game against the Raiders in the snow.

But you are missing the biggest point. Leadership. That pats team excelled because of a culture change about buying into the team, which Brady was perfect for.

As far as throwing and reading defenses Peyton is as a good as there has ever been at that, but his leadership sucks, throwing the Oline under the bus and such.

The pats in 2001 overachieved because of Brady.

03 and 04 pats were talented enough where Peyton could have won with, but who knows if they would have.

Also the Rams had a top #3 def that year. They were such overwhelming favorites because they were the #1 offense and I'm pretty sure #2 def that year.

 

[amfootball]

If Bill can't win a superbowl without Brady, the narrative going forward won't be, how many Superbowls would Bill have won with Rogers but how many Superbowls would Brady have won with Arians.

Exactly. How many would he have won with Arians AND Licht. The GM part is critical here because Licht is the one that built the team that drew Brady's interest in joining and then he added every single piece Brady wanted and all those pieces scored TDs in the SB. Talk about a Cinderella story. Good heavens. No one saw that all that in year one - winning the chip on the road and beating Brees, Rodgers and Mahomes. A masterpiece for the entire org. No wonder they can't stop gushing about Brady.

 

[venecol]

I don't know about great but i'm not sure how many coaches could have gone 7-9 still be in the playoff hunt in Dec with that roster was a decent showing.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Good ole Jim Mora.

 

[Rob0729]

Exactly. Brady was elite in college and won the Rose Bowl. He wasn't some kid Bill discovered. Brady made Brady.


I'm saying he had a terrible year by his standards.

Also Peyton was not a good outdoor QB at that point in his career. No way he wins that game against the Raiders in the snow.

But you are missing the biggest point. Leadership. That pats team excelled because of a culture change about buying into the team, which Brady was perfect for.

As far as throwing and reading defenses Peyton is as a good as there has ever been at that, but his leadership sucks, throwing the Oline under the bus and such.

The pats in 2001 overachieved because of Brady.

03 and 04 pats were talented enough where Peyton could have won with, but who knows if they would have.

Also the Rams had a top #3 def that year. They were such overwhelming favorites because they were the #1 offense and I'm pretty sure #2 def that year.

The Pats overachieved because of their defense. Again, the Pats had the best defense in the NFL the second half of the season and the playoffs. Why are people ignoring that?

And Brady was a game manager in 2001. Manning indoors or outdoors could have done that.

And I don't think Brady was the leader you think he was right out of the gun. He was a sixth round pick who came in when the starting QB got injured. Seasoned veterans are not going to follow a guy like that so easily. You are projecting the finished product Brady after he was established to what he was in 2001.

And the Rams averaged giving up 17.1 PPG. The Pats scored 13 points on offense in the Super Bowl. The Pats scored below the average. And the Rams benefitted from getting big leads early in games and making the opposing offense one dimensional in 2001.

 

[amfootball]

The Pats overachieved because of their defense. Again, the Pats had the best defense in the NFL the second half of the season and the playoffs. Why are people ignoring that?

And Brady was a game manager in 2001. Manning indoors or outdoors could have done that.

And I don't think Brady was the leader you think he was right out of the gun. He was a sixth round pick who came in when the starting QB got injured. Seasoned veterans are not going to follow a guy like that so easily. You are projecting the finished product Brady after he was established to what he was in 2001.

And the Rams averaged giving up 17.1 PPG. The Pats scored 13 points on offense in the Super Bowl. The Pats scored below the average. And the Rams benefitted from getting big leads early in games and making the opposing offense one dimensional in 2001.

Ty Law, our best defensive player back then, has said many times that things drastically changed when Brady took over. He said the whole team felt like the QB was no longer above the team and they came together to play for Tom. He was every bit the leader back then. That is how he got the starting job to begin with as a 6th round pick. Guys respond to him and play their tails off for him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ty Law, our best defensive player back then, has said many times that things drastically changed when Brady took over. He said the whole team felt like the QB was no longer above the team and they came together to play for Tom. He was every bit the leader back then. That is how he got the starting job to begin with as a 6th round pick. Guys respond to him and play their tails off for him.

Absolutely true. Damian Woody said the same thing.

Players didn't hate Drew but Tom brought an energy and a contagious enthusiasm that Drew didn't. Thats just not who he was.

 

[gobesmug]

The Pats overachieved because of their defense. Again, the Pats had the best defense in the NFL the second half of the season and the playoffs. Why are people ignoring that?

And Brady was a game manager in 2001. Manning indoors or outdoors could have done that.

And I don't think Brady was the leader you think he was right out of the gun. He was a sixth round pick who came in when the starting QB got injured. Seasoned veterans are not going to follow a guy like that so easily. You are projecting the finished product Brady after he was established to what he was in 2001.

And the Rams averaged giving up 17.1 PPG. The Pats scored 13 points on offense in the Super Bowl. The Pats scored below the average. And the Rams benefitted from getting big leads early in games and making the opposing offense one dimensional in 2001.

Peyton with Marvin Harrison all 16 games, Reggie Wayne, Marcus Pollard and Dominick Rhodes played bad on the road in 2001.

He didn't have a good season and even with Egerin James puting up over 100 yards a game for the first 6 weeks he was still coughing the ball up. His best games were at home and he multiple below 200 yards passing games on the road.

Go ahead and look at his stats throughout that year and the weapons he was playing with. Now give him the weapons in NE and he would have been even worse. Plus he never would have played for Bill, dude would have demanded him fired.

 

[gobesmug]

It's ridiculous how any fan couldn't see how much different the team looked in week 3 with Brady under center.

I always disliked watching Drew Bledsoe. He had his stupid signature ball tap before throwing the pass. It was always frustrating, but Bledsoe was a class act so I won't harp on him past that.

Brady played with efficiency that complimented the defense. Troy Brown had his first 100 catch season with Brady and Brady took what the defense gave him instead of forcing it.

Not turning the ball over is huge for the defense and directly impacts field position which helps a defense.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The Pats overachieved because of their defense. Again, the Pats had the best defense in the NFL the second half of the season and the playoffs. Why are people ignoring that?

And Brady was a game manager in 2001. Manning indoors or outdoors could have done that.

And I don't think Brady was the leader you think he was right out of the gun. He was a sixth round pick who came in when the starting QB got injured. Seasoned veterans are not going to follow a guy like that so easily. You are projecting the finished product Brady after he was established to what he was in 2001.

And the Rams averaged giving up 17.1 PPG. The Pats scored 13 points on offense in the Super Bowl. The Pats scored below the average. And the Rams benefitted from getting big leads early in games and making the opposing offense one dimensional in 2001.

Keep driving home those same tired, old, refuted punchlines. Kids today just don't get it. You tell them...

 

[RobertWeathers]

It's ridiculous how any fan couldn't see how much different the team looked in week 3 with Brady under center.

I always disliked watching Drew Bledsoe. He had his stupid signature ball tap before throwing the pass. It was always frustrating, but Bledsoe was a class act so I won't harp on him past that.

Brady played with efficiency that complimented the defense. Troy Brown had his first 100 catch season with Brady and Brady took what the defense gave him instead of forcing it.

Not turning the ball over is huge for the defense and directly impacts field position which helps a defense.

There was a reason (several actually) why coming out of TC in 2001 Bill thought Tom was a better QB than Drew.

 

[Rob0729]

Ty Law, our best defensive player back then, has said many times that things drastically changed when Brady took over. He said the whole team felt like the QB was no longer above the team and they came together to play for Tom. He was every bit the leader back then. That is how he got the starting job to begin with as a 6th round pick. Guys respond to him and play their tails off for him.

When Brady walked on water and turned water into wine, the whole team was firmly behind him. So what happened in 2002? Tom take a year off of his. leadership?

 

[Rob0729]

Peyton with Marvin Harrison all 16 games, Reggie Wayne, Marcus Pollard and Dominick Rhodes played bad on the road in 2001.

He didn't have a good season and even with Egerin James puting up over 100 yards a game for the first 6 weeks he was still coughing the ball up. His best games were at home and he multiple below 200 yards passing games on the road.

Go ahead and look at his stats throughout that year and the weapons he was playing with. Now give him the weapons in NE and he would have been even worse. Plus he never would have played for Bill, dude would have demanded him fired.

I am sure Manning could have been a game manager like Tom was. But that isn't the point and I done going down this rabbit hole.

 

[amfootball]

When Brady walked on water and turned water into wine, the whole team was firmly behind him. So what happened in 2002? Tom take a year off of his. leadership?

Are you kidding with this? How about 2003/2004 when they won back to back, the last team to do so?

 

[gobesmug]

I am sure Manning could have been a game manager like Tom was. But that isn't the point and I done going down this rabbit hole

You really think the guy, who scripted a game of keep away when he broke the TD record, would have been content playing as a game manager and weekly being talked down to from his HC in front of the whole team?

Peyton is not a fan of humble pie. It's nothing against his skills as a player, but you can't ignore the man's personality.

 

[Rob0729]

It's ridiculous how any fan couldn't see how much different the team looked in week 3 with Brady under center.

I always disliked watching Drew Bledsoe. He had his stupid signature ball tap before throwing the pass. It was always frustrating, but Bledsoe was a class act so I won't harp on him past that.

Brady played with efficiency that complimented the defense. Troy Brown had his first 100 catch season with Brady and Brady took what the defense gave him instead of forcing it.

Not turning the ball over is huge for the defense and directly impacts field position which helps a defense.

The Pats went 2-2 the first four full games under Brady that season. They were 4-3 the first full seven games under Brady. This miraculous turnaround is a myth. They went 8-1 their last nine games. Why? Because they gave up the following points per game

10 vs. Atlanta
11 vs Buffalo
24 vs the Rams (the only loss, but the defense actually played the Rams well)
17 vs. the Saints
16 vs. Jets
16 vs. the Browns
9 vs the Bills (the game went into overtime)
13 vs the Dolphins
6 vs. Carolina

Seriously, why are people recreating history. The Pats won on defense. The turnaround in 2001 was mostly because the defense came together and became the best defense in the NFL.

 

[amfootball]

The Pats went 2-2 the first four fulls games under Brady that season. They were 4-3 the first full seven games under Brady. This miraculous turnaround is a myth. They went 8-1 their last nine games. Why? Because they gave up the following points per game

10 vs. Atlanta
11 vs Buffalo
24 vs the Rams (the only loss, but the defense actually played the Rams well)
17 vs. the Saints
16 vs. Jets
16 vs. the Browns
9 vs the Bills (the game went into overtime)
13 vs the Dolphins

Seriously, why are people recreating history. The Pats won on defense. The turnaround in 2001 was mostly because the defense came together and became the best defense in the NFL.

Because those defensive players credited Brady with the turn around. He was the ultimate game manager for that team which helped the defense to play to its potential. He didn't turn the ball over, scored on crap teams to make their jobs easier and was super clutch. I mean look at Tampa's defensive stats this year vs last year because Brady did the exact same thing for them. One complements the other.

 

[Rob0729]

Are you kidding with this? How about 2003/2004 when they won back to back, the last team to do so?

Are you kidding with this? How about in 2003 when the Patriots probably had a top ten defense of all time? Brady played a key role, but he wasn't the main reason back then. He had five games that year where he couldn't score a single TD. The Pats shut out three teams that year and held another to three points and another one to six points. They gave up nine total points in those five games. Nine.