PATRIOTS NEWS Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Rob0729]

Not true at all.

In fact the Browns didn't fire him. The new Ravens did. Art Modell told Bill he would coach the new Ravens team. Then after the move Modell went back on his word called Bill to tell him they're going in a different direction. The owner was hearing a lot of negativity with Bill's style from both players and coaches and he decided that was enough. Fans too. Once Kosar move was made, I think that's when the clock started running and Bill wasn't long for the team. Modell was not exactly Kraft in temperament either.

In the end it just wasn't Bill's time. Just like it wasn't Pete Carroll's time when he was here. That's pretty much it.

Yeah, Bill got a lot of flack for letting Kosar go. Ultimately, he was right. Kosar was toast when Belichick let him go.
on.

 

[Kontradiction]

Yeah, Bill got a lot of flack for letting Kosar go. Ultimately, he was right. Kosar was toast when Belichick let him go.
on.

So... not a top 5 QB, then?

 

[RobertWeathers]

The defense made a huge turn when Bryan Cox made a monster hit on someone I cannot remember.

Jerome Pathon.

He still doesn't know what day it is.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think he was a great coach this year. As a GM, you can definitely say he failed.

I don't know about great but i'm not sure how many coaches could have gone 7-9 still be in the playoff hunt in Dec with that roster was a decent showing.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't know about great but i'm not sure how many coaches could have gone 7-9 still be in the playoff hunt in Dec with that roster was a decent showing.

Great may be an overstatement. But he did a good job coaching based on the talent he had.

 

[ralmat55]

Other than QB. The two most important position groups in football are offense line and secondary. The Patriots in 2020 had well above average talent and production out of those position groups. You throw in above average production from the RBs and they should have been able to compete in every game even with subpar QB play as long as they hung onto the ball.

The defensive game plans against the 49ers, Rams, Texans and 2nd Buffalo game were so bad or nonexistent that the Pats players didn’t even have a chance in those games. Rushing 3 most of the game against the Texans when their OL was in horrible shape was a coaching masterstoke wasn’t it? In the other games, they just stayed in they nickel or dime alignments and were just bullied all over the field. Poor Adrian Phillips. The guy should have got hazard pay.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Now that the Bucs are about to extend Brady into 2022 and beyond, the argument about if BB should have let Brady go is ovah!

There are several BB moves that I think costs the Pats dearly...

Trading away Deion Branch (granted he got a decent haul, but he never filled that void)
Drafting Cunningham one spot ahead of his teamate Carlos Dunlap (imagine Dunlap on the Pats the last 12 years)
Trading away Chandler Jones for some magic bean stalk beans

But letting the all time great QB reach free agency and then you don't even have the cap space to sign him (because he carries a 12 million dead money hit), after years of spending 3rd and 2nd round pick on his "sucessor" only to have absolutely no one to take his place. This is unforgivable!

BB now needs to win without Brady or his career is always going to have a "yeah but, he never won without Brady" monikor to it.

 

[203Pat]

Again, I am going on what reporters have been reporting for years. You have a problem with what I said, you might want to address it to Michael Holley or any one of about two dozen Patriots related media people have said over the years.

And I think the one position that Kraft have always interfered with even after the Parcells debacle was QB. I think that may be the one area where he still maintains veto authority. Well, at least if the QB is the face of the franchise like Bledsoe was in the 90s and Brady every year since until this past season.

We can agree to disagree on the short hook for Drew part but I think in the end of the day both you and I have acknowledged that neither side would have the success they had without the other. I think Bill's GM career as a whole has been good but I think he has slipped pretty badly the last few years.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Is Bill Belichick sabotaging the Patriots on purpose?​

Very good podcast. Guy makes some great points.

Yep, he sabotaged them right into being the greatest dynasty in NFL history, and did so in the era of free agency. Motherf@cker.

 

[Rob0729]

We can agree to disagree on the short hook for Drew part but I think in the end of the day both you and I have acknowledged that neither side would have the success they had without the other. I think Bill's GM career as a whole has been good but I think he has slipped pretty badly the last few years.

Belichick has been downright mediocre as a GM. He has gone through periods where he was a genius GM and periods when he was awful. I think that is common for all long term GMs. Some GMs may have longer periods of genius, but even Ozzie Newsome has had stretches where he did a lot wrong and very little right. And I would put Newsome as the best GM of the modern era.

 

[Biffins]

Yep, he sabotaged them right into being the greatest dynasty in NFL history, and did so in the era of free agency. Motherf@cker.

What's with the cursing? You ok man?

Can't disagree without swearing?

 

[crawhammer]

My goal is to drive you off this board.

You can't.

It's a good thing Brady had such a great coach all those years and it's good thing that BB had such a great QB all those years. See, everyone can be happy.

Firstly, that's not what the tables illustrate.

Secondly, Belichick and Brady weren't happy together. Belichick was fantasizing about another quarterback as early as 2014. He started throwing tantrums in 2017. Brady was done with Belichick by the end of the 2017 season but he wanted to stay together for the kids. Their relationship was irreconcilable after Belichick denied Brady a long-term commitment for the last time and the no-franchise agreement was tantamount to signing divorce papers. So no, we don't all live in happyland.

It is not that hard to be happy when your favorite teams has won 6 SB's over a 20 year span with these two at the helm.

It's the best 20 years in the history of the league. A general view of it reflects unprecedented success that likely will never be duplicated. Any fan of the team has to have been ecstatic with the successes. But under scrutiny you can also recognize that it was not perfect as there were disappointments and the teetering of the core relationship between Belichick and Brady was plain to see.

It's not an unusual phenomenon that when a couple splits, in this case a coach and quarterback, that blame is cast upon one party or the other. It's also not unusual to take inventory and assess the merits of what each had contributed to the union. Typically what's left is not a 50/50 outcome. I think there's some value in that assessment, if for no other reason then it interests me. Others may find it uninteresting, or controversial, or perhaps offensive... so much so that they stalk me on an otherwise innocuous forum literally calling for my head on a platter.

Nothing lasts forever, it's okay to grieve, but at some point it is time to move on.

At the same time I don't want to equate it to getting over a death in the family. In other words, I don't think grieving is an issue.

Third, there were plenty of QBs who could have won with the Patriots in 2001. Brady was a true game manager. There were plenty of top QBs who could have done what the Patriots did. I don't how many could do that game winning drive in the Super Bowl, but a QB like Manning probably wouldn't have needed it.

I'll consider your other points but you completely lose me here. You're underappreciating what Brady immediately brought to the table upon becoming the starting QB. Since you're singing an old tune I doubt if I gave you an exceptionally detailed response that it would change your mind at all.

So I'll focus on your most offensive suggestion... that being Manning would have just blown the Rams off the map. You're talking about a guy, who if you negate a couple of early round pulverizations of the Broncos (so we're talking Indy Manning), was NOT even a decent postseason performer. Especially if we're talking Super Bowls.

Manning sucked in all four of his Super Bowl appearances. As much as I would love to detail all of his SB mistakes, I'll start with his cumulative numbers: 4 games, 3 TD's, 5 INT's, 77.4 passer rating. He was brutal and made critical mistakes in the two losses. The win over the severely overmatched Bears he completed one TD pass to Wayne who had broken completely free of coverage and was wide open. That was midway through the 1st quarter. He was horrendous for the rest of the game which Indy won with their running game and defense. The win over the Panthers was all about Denver's defense and Newton choking. Manning was completely awful that entire season and he really had no business even playing in the Super Bowl but his defense was so dominant in the SB that he literally didn't matter at all.

In other words, there is no way a Manning-led team beats that Rams team in 2001.

defenses won championships

This is a whole other can of worms that I don't really want to get into but history proves that just as many (if not more) great offenses win championships. And really it's well balanced teams that most often prevail. That and teams with hall of fame quarterbacks.

 

[203Pat]

Belichick has been downright mediocre as a GM. He has gone through periods where he was a genius GM and periods when he was awful. I think that is common for all long term GMs. Some GMs may have longer periods of genius, but even Ozzie Newsome has had stretches where he did a lot wrong and very little right. And I would put Newsome as the best GM of the modern era.

I think he has drafted poorly the last 5-6 years but over the last 2 or 3 years his personnel moves in general have been horrific. Michael Bennett, Sanu, Ealy, Adrian Clayborn, Cam, AB, Bodine. All players that did nothing but waste draft picks and cap space. Even the way he has managed the TE position. Wore down Gronk till he retired then hasn't adequately replaced even the slowed down 2018 version ofGronk. ASJ, a 45 year old Ben Watson, Lance Kendricks, Matt Lacosse, rookies who don't play, and trading away Hollister who would have been the number one guy by default. That isn't even factoring in his most egregious error (I believe of his his entire career) of shoving Brady out the door with no backup plan.

 

[Calhoun44]

It's not an unusual phenomenon that when a couple splits, in this case a coach and quarterback, that blame is cast upon one party or the other. It's also not unusual to take inventory and assess the merits of what each had contributed to the union. Typically what's left is not a 50/50 outcome. I think there's some value in that assessment, if for no other reason then it interests me. Others may find it uninteresting, or controversial, or perhaps offensive... so much so that they stalk me on an otherwise innocuous forum literally calling for my head on a platter.

Although I agree with some of your explanations in this quoted part, I think the impossible thing to do is to talk about much of their relationship as fact. They don't share this inner working type knowledge with the public and personally I'm glad. If I wanted soap opera banter about relationship break-ups, I would watch daytime soap operas. It kind of doesn't matter at this point and there is nothing to be done about it. So from my perspective I would rather look to the future and trust the many years of BB's experience and see if he can build another championship caliber team. I'm a Pats fan and I will always chee3r on the players that wear the NE logo and the coaches that coach them. I just don't enjoy the drama of all the other stuff. But by saying that I am not knocking you for finding that this stuff "interests" you. Hey we all enjoy our football in different ways. I really enjoyed your response and Go Pats!!!

 

[Rob0729]

You can't.


Firstly, that's not what the tables illustrate.

Secondly, Belichick and Brady weren't happy together. Belichick was fantasizing about another quarterback as early as 2014. He started throwing tantrums in 2017. Brady was done with Belichick by the end of the 2017 season but he wanted to stay together for the kids. Their relationship was irreconcilable after Belichick denied Brady a long-term commitment for the last time and the no-franchise agreement was tantamount to signing divorce papers. So no, we don't all live in happyland.


It's the best 20 years in the history of the league. A general view of it reflects unprecedented success that likely will never be duplicated. Any fan of the team has to have been ecstatic with the successes. But under scrutiny you can also recognize that it was not perfect as there were disappointments and the teetering of the core relationship between Belichick and Brady was plain to see.

It's not an unusual phenomenon that when a couple splits, in this case a coach and quarterback, that blame is cast upon one party or the other. It's also not unusual to take inventory and assess the merits of what each had contributed to the union. Typically what's left is not a 50/50 outcome. I think there's some value in that assessment, if for no other reason then it interests me. Others may find it uninteresting, or controversial, or perhaps offensive... so much so that they stalk me on an otherwise innocuous forum literally calling for my head on a platter.


At the same time I don't want to equate it to getting over a death in the family. In other words, I don't think grieving is an issue.


I'll consider your other points but you completely lose me here. You're underappreciating what Brady immediately brought to the table upon becoming the starting QB. Since you're singing an old tune I doubt if I gave you an exceptionally detailed response that it would change your mind at all.

So I'll focus on your most offensive suggestion... that being Manning would have just blown the Rams off the map. You're talking about a guy, who if you negate a couple of early round pulverizations of the Broncos (so we're talking Indy Manning), was NOT even a decent postseason performer. Especially if we're talking Super Bowls.

Manning sucked in all four of his Super Bowl appearances. As much as I would love to detail all of his SB mistakes, I'll start with his cumulative numbers: 4 games, 3 TD's, 5 INT's, 77.4 passer rating. He was brutal and made critical mistakes in the two losses. The win over the severely overmatched Bears he completed one TD pass to Wayne who had broken completely free of coverage and was wide open. That was midway through the 1st quarter. He was horrendous for the rest of the game which Indy won with their running game and defense. The win over the Panthers was all about Denver's defense and Newton choking. Manning was completely awful that entire season and he really had no business even playing in the Super Bowl but his defense was so dominant in the SB that he literally didn't matter at all.

In other words, there is no way a Manning-led team beats that Rams team in 2001.


This is a whole other can of worms that I don't really want to get into but history proves that just as many (if not more) great offenses win championships. And really it's well balanced teams that most often prevail. That and teams with hall of fame quarterbacks.

First, I didn't say Manning would have blown the Rams off the map. I said Manning would have scored more than ten points before the last minute of the game. That is a huge difference.

Second, you are overstating what Brady was his first year as a starter He showed flashes, but he was just good not great that year.

Third, defenses did win championships prior to about 2004. Sure some great offenses won and a lot of balanced teams won, but let's face it most of the teams that won Super Bowls won with great defenses. They just let defenses play more in the playoffs and even in the regular season defenses of the past could get away with a lot more than they get into the playoffs today. You had the Steel Curtain Defense. You had the 85 Bears. You had the No Name Defense. The Giants' defense under Parcells. You had QBs like Doug Williams, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Jim Plunkett, Jim McMahon, and Mark Rypien all win Super Bowls. That is eight Super Bowls there with average to below average QBs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You can't.

Lots of different ways to expurgate a crybaby troll like you...

 

[Rob0729]

I think he has drafted poorly the last 5-6 years but over the last 2 or 3 years his personnel moves in general have been horrific. Michael Bennett, Sanu, Ealy, Adrian Clayborn, Cam, AB, Bodine. All players that did nothing but waste draft picks and cap space. Even the way he has managed the TE position. Wore down Gronk till he retired then hasn't adequately replaced even the slowed down 2018 version ofGronk. ASJ, a 45 year old Ben Watson, Lance Kendricks, Matt Lacosse, rookies who don't play, and trading away Hollister who would have been the number one guy by default. That isn't even factoring in his most egregious error (I believe of his his entire career) of shoving Brady out the door with no backup plan.

Some of his personnel moves, I will give him a free pass. Everybody thought Michael Bennett was a good signing at the time. And AB fell on his lap and, even with AB's history, I don't know if Belichick could have known AB would be accused of rape the first week he was in a Patriots uniform.

The one positive is usually after a really disappointing year, Belichick has had some of his best GM moves. Look at 2001, 2003, 2007, and 2010. Hopefully history will repeat itself.

 

[gobesmug]

First, I didn't say Manning would have blown the Rams off the map. I said Manning would have scored more than ten points before the last minute of the game. That is a huge difference.

Second, you are overstating what Brady was his first year as a starter He showed flashes, but he was just good not great that year.

Third, defenses did win championships prior to about 2004. Sure some great offenses won and a lot of balanced teams won, but let's face it most of the teams that won Super Bowls won with great defenses. They just let defenses play more in the playoffs and even in the regular season defenses of the past could get away with a lot more than they get into the playoffs today. You had the Steel Curtain Defense. You had the 85 Bears. You had the No Name Defense. The Giants' defense under Parcells. You had QBs like Doug Williams, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Jim Plunkett, Jim McMahon, and Mark Rypien all win Super Bowls. That is eight Super Bowls there with average to below average QBs.

Peyton Manning had a terrible year that season. He threw 23ints and the colts finished 6-10.

Before you blame being on a bad team, the prior 2 years the colts went 13-3 and 10-6, and the season after went 10-6.

Peyton played terrible that year and with Peyton the Pats don't even make the playoffs that year. Remember with Drew Bledsoe the Pats were 0-2 before Brady took over and went 11-3.

Another huge factor that's been ignored until this year is Brady's leadership. Peyton is not nearly on the same level as Brady.

Do you really think Peyton would have been cool going on the field as a team instead of it being all about him?

 

[PatsWSB47]

The elite Brady of today is the same elite Brady that told Bob Kraft the he was "best decision the Patriots ever made" back in 2000. No he didnt have experience or all the answers to the test yet but he had the obsession to be great every day. Let me amend that. He was the same elite Brady that played in Michigan. People saw a difference in him the second he had his first start. I actually saw a difference that preseason in 2001. We didn't know of course of how great he would become. No one did but a lot of people said he had "it" He maintains "it" even now, 20 years later. Only in hindsight with the benefit of history can we see that hes always been the GOAT.

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, Bill got a lot of flack for letting Kosar go. Ultimately, he was right. Kosar was toast when Belichick let him go.
on.

And Vinny T. ended up playing so well later on with the Jets that his injury caused Keyshawn to break down and cry.