Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Calhoun44]

You think Belichick willfully would allow himself to be challenged? He can't even handle players who think for themselves anymore. There's no way he's listening to anyone else regarding the construction of the team. What moron, if given the opportunity, would agree with for example drafting an unheralded placekicker in the 5th round? You think Belichick wants to deal with pushback on that? No way. He'd rather draft "outside of the box", realize his mistake after the fact, then have to bury the player for a year while they get a white supremacist tattoo removed.


Regarding the Patriots dynasty, it was more about Brady than Belichick. Especially the latter decade. I think Belichick was well aware of this impression so he wanted to change it. I believe he thought he would have the opportunity sooner but Brady outlasted his expectations. But instead of continuing to ride the wave of Brady's greatness he started to rebel against it. He openly talked up Brady's demise after the 2014 draft. He initially tossed Brady under the bus with deflategate before coming to his defense likely out of concern that Goodell would do something crazy like suspend Brady for the Super Bowl. It's probable Belichick contemplated trading Brady 2016-2017 but got shot down by Kraft. Instead Belichick made things difficult for Brady (access to Guerrero, etc.) and lowballed him with short-term contracts. The final straw for Brady was the poor roster construction mostly stemming from weak drafts. In the end Belichick ironically pushed Brady onto achieving what he had desired, which was to prove one could win without the other.

To answer some of your other questions... yes I believe Belichick squandered a chunk of Brady's prime and trashed two seasons entirely (2015 & 2017). Belichick basically deferred the #1 seed in 2015 which cost them that Super Bowl. And he completely sabotaged SB 52 with the Butler benching. At which point I was done with Belichick and wanted him fired.

Looking at the offseason after the SB 53 victory, that's not an occasion where you're willfully moving on from your head coach. However, given the choice between Brady for 3, 4 or maybe even 5 more seasons or Belichick in a rebuild without a quarterback, well we've seen that script before (Cleveland), so I'm moving on from the head coach and keeping the franchise quarterback to conclusion of his career.

I think Brady with another head coach/GM would have provided a greater opportunity for continued success than what we're getting now, which is likely multi-seasons of mediocre teams possibly contending for a wild card spot. Buffalo is going to be too good and I don't have faith in Belichick to rebuild a championship caliber team over the next 3-5 seasons (unless he lands a franchise quarterback through free agency which is highly unlikely). I think Belichick will retire no later than 2024 (he won't win another division title). Brady will play two more seasons and win one more Super Bowl (next season).

Thanks for your reply.
I can only go off what has happened and personally I wouldn't change anything. The two together brought me so much joy that I am forever grateful that they made it last as long as they did. I am happy for Brady that he got 7 and I will be even more happy when the Patriots win their 7th, which I am hopeful will be in a couple years with BB at the helm.

 

[Calhoun44]

I can only speak for myself.

1. Bill is an all-time great, and maybe the best ever, despite some mistakes he's made and despite that being an all-time great for a coach/GM doesn't mean what Team Bill thinks it does. And as the customers (fans), it's important that we criticize, ask for accountability, etc. rather than Kool-Aid drinking and making some of the more far-fetched excuses you'll find. It's especially important because of the gigantic schism that the Brady loss has caused within the fan base and terrible short-term results.

2. Every organization or company led by a leader like Bill generally moves along the same path: giving absolute authority to someone who is a genius and trailblazer, reaping the rewards, then seeing some negative effects of what happens when the team undergoes some pretty big changes requiring adaptation and being left with an echo chamber. In this case, it's concerning that there's almost no transparency about why Hall of Fame players are leaving or some very, very questionable "big-time" decisions, and it seems that we're seeing the bad side of having no checks and balances. This isn't anything against Bill; it's just the nature of having an all-powerful leader...could be a CEO, coach, poliical leader, etc.

3. I'd love to see the Patriots bring in some outsiders. When they brought in Floyd Reese from 2009-12, they drafted almost every important player of the 2010s dynasty, and yet those years without him, they've sruggled mightily. I think Bill should challenge himself with some new voices but remain the primary delegator and decision maker. I'm not sure that having a ton of people here whose success was completely tied to Brady (ex: Josh McDaniels) is necessarily the right mindset for a rebuild. Steven Belichick...I mean, come on. Re-hiring Matt Patricia as an assistant? A whole bunch of position coaches, assistants, scouts, personnel leaders...these guys have all been here for so many years. They may "push back" and offer "new ideas" but even those are steeped in the Patriots philosophy.

Many have criticized their drafting, their offensive philosophy, etc. and pointed to the same mistakes made over and over; I don't see a lot of people within that organization "thinking outside the box" or "continuous improvement" anymore. In the last twenty years, there have been tons of rule changes, personnel changes, offensive and defensive innovations. It seems to me, from an amateur/outsider viewpoint, that this organization is somewhat confused about what they need but adament they have the right coaches and leadership guys to make those decisions. That's not a good place to be in.

And from a team culture standpoint, you're a rebuilding team trying to forge an identity, not a winner and prized free agency destination anymore. It seems their player relations, rigidness, and overall "smirking about how great they are" may not be what the franchise needs right now. If this organization were not called the New England Patriots, it would appear to be pretty dysfunctional from about 2017-present. I could cite many things, but none of us can deny there appears to be power struggles, infighting, a lack of planning, etc.

Bill should bring in new people who are excited about rebuilding a football team and get rid of "the loyalists", or at the very least, start challenging them through outside hires.

I love the idea of bringing in some new voices to shake up the thought patterns a bit. I am sure BB is more disappointed than any of us considering how much time and effort he puts into his craft. I sure hope he is looking at all aspects of draft evaluations and FA evaluations. I trust him to re-calibrate and give us more winning seasons and a shot at a SB soon.

 

[sb1]

Yeah, I get it. You worship at the cult of Brady. Yes, Belichick would have been been Rich Kotite 2.0 without Brady. Brady is swell. Belichick icky. I get it.

Belichick was a great coach this year. And guess what? He had a losing record. You can say Belichick the GM was a failure. But Belichick the coach took at team with probably 3-5 win talent to 7 wins. That was my point. The Pats won games with a QB who couldn’t complete simple passes and no one to catch the ball if he could. Belichick did one hell of a job coaching up this team this year.

So endeth the lesson.

Totally agree that a subpar coach would have had his team go a lot worse than 7-9 with no QB, no receivers or TE, not much for defense and a tough schedule.

But we do know for sure now that the mighty Belichick "system" that supposedly propped up Brady - really ain't all that after all.

 

[Tony2046]

It wasn't the late 90's... he was the head coach from 1991-1995. There was no "turnaround." Their records were 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5 & 5-11. Belichick did not win a division title there and managed only a single playoff win in 5 seasons. His last season there they finished out the season with a 2-10 record and the losing started before the move of the team was announced. Belichick got fired because he was a complete and utter failure in Cleveland.

 

[sb1]

Again, that is your opinion. The reigns didn't come off for Brady until 2004. So how can you say that Brady was he same QB in 2001 as 2004?

Brady wasn't ready for the NFL when he came into the league. I am sure even he'll admit that. He worked his ass off to become what he did. He would do so much extra. He got to where he is because he was the hardest worker in the room. Part of his offseason workouts were working with trainers to better his mechanics. Just look at Brady physically when he came into the league to even like 2004 or so. He was a completely different guy.

Hell, Peyton Manning who came into the league as the most NFL QB in the last 30 years wasn't elite his first season as a starter. Why would Brady?

And the Rams' defense was most likely not as good as their stats. They would get up to a two or three TD lead most games and turn the opposing offense one dimensional. But even against a top 5 defense, 10 points in 58 minutes of play especially when your defense has shut them down isn't all that special.

By "day 1" I mean when he was named starter, not his rookie year. He was absolutely an elite QB from that point on. Guys like that can turn their teams around on a dime and that's what Brady did. I'm trying to think of QBs who could have done what Brady did vs Raiders and Rams in the playoffs. I can't think of many at all. That's the definition of elite.

The 2001 Rams defense was ranked 3rd in the league in DVOA. I believe DVOA factors in garbage time. I think they deserved the credit of their ranking and were every bit a challenge for the Pats offense as they should have been. Also the era being what it was where you could do what you wanted to QB and receivers. That should not be used against Brady - he was playing great competition.

 

[sb1]

Belichick got fired because he was a complete and utter failure in Cleveland.

Not true at all.

In fact the Browns didn't fire him. The new Ravens did. Art Modell told Bill he would coach the new Ravens team. Then after the move Modell went back on his word called Bill to tell him they're going in a different direction. The owner was hearing a lot of negativity with Bill's style from both players and coaches and he decided that was enough. Fans too. Once Kosar move was made, I think that's when the clock started running and Bill wasn't long for the team. Modell was not exactly Kraft in temperament either.

In the end it just wasn't Bill's time. Just like it wasn't Pete Carroll's time when he was here. That's pretty much it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not true at all.

In fact the Browns didn't fire him. The new Ravens did. Art Modell told Bill he would coach the new Ravens team. Then after the move Modell went back on his word called Bill to tell him they're going in a different direction. The owner was hearing a lot of negativity with Bill's style from both players and coaches and he decided that was enough. Fans too. Once Kosar move was made, I think that's when the clock started running and Bill wasn't long for the team. Modell was not exactly Kraft in temperament either.

In the end it just wasn't Bill's time. Just like it wasn't Pete Carroll's time when he was here. That's pretty much it.

The poster you are responding to has an agenda. Not worth engaging him.

 

[crawhammer]

Art Modell told Bill he would coach the new Ravens team. Then after the move Modell went back on his word called Bill to tell him they're going in a different direction. The owner was hearing a lot of negativity with Bill's style from both players and coaches and he decided that was enough.

Hmm... that sounds familiar. Seems like Bill hasn't changed much over the years. That will bode well in a rebuild.

Smart decision by Modell. Belichick left the team in shambles. Go back and look at Belichick's drafts in Cleveland. Dog food. The first two draft picks post-Belichick by Baltimore... two hall of famers right out of the shoot... Jonathan Ogden and Ray Lewis. Even still the team went through a multi-year rebuild thanks to Belichick.

The poster you are responding to has an agenda. Not worth engaging him.

Ok hypocrite. You going to follow me around the message board telling people to ignore me?

 

[crawhammer]

Offensive Rankings under Belichick without Brady:

Year​	Division Standing​	Points Per Game​	Yards Per Game​
1991​	3rd​	16th​	19th​
1992​	3rd​	20th​	18th​
1993​	3rd​	15th​	20th​
1994​	2nd​	11th​	16th​
1995​	4th​	25th​	21st​
2000​	5th​	25th​	22nd​
2008​	2nd​	8th​	5th​
2020​	3rd​	27th​	27th​
Average​	3.1​	18.4​	18.5​

Offensive Rankings under Belichick with Brady:

Year​	Division Standing​	Points Per Game​	Yards Per Game​
2001​	1st​	6th​	19th​
2002​	2nd​	10th​	21st​
2003​	1st​	12th​	17th​
2004​	1st​	4th​	7th​
2005​	1st​	10th​	7th​
2006​	1st​	7th​	11th​
2007​	1st​	1st​	1st​
2009​	1st​	6th​	3rd​
2010​	1st​	1st​	8th​
2011​	1st​	3rd​	2nd​
2012​	1st​	1st​	1st​
2013​	1st​	3rd​	7th​
2014​	1st​	4th​	11th​
2015​	1st​	3rd​	6th​
2016​	1st​	3rd​	4th​
2017​	1st​	2nd​	1st​
2018​	1st​	4th​	5th​
2019​	1st​	7th​	15th​
Average​	1.1​	4.9​	8.1​

Summary...

Belichick without Brady, 8 seasons, 0 division titles, 2 of 16 rankings inside top 10, 1 of 8 P/G inside top 10
Belichick with Brady, 18 seasons, 17 division titles, 29 of 36 rankings inside top 10, 17 of 18 P/G inside top 10

 

[Calhoun44]

Offensive Rankings under Belichick without Brady:

Year​	Division Standing​	Points Per Game​	Yards Per Game​
1991​	3rd​	16th​	19th​
1992​	3rd​	20th​	18th​
1993​	3rd​	15th​	20th​
1994​	2nd​	11th​	16th​
1995​	4th​	25th​	21st​
2000​	5th​	25th​	22nd​
2008​	2nd​	8th​	5th​
2020​	3rd​	27th​	27th​
Average​	3.1​	18.4​	18.5​

Offensive Rankings under Belichick with Brady:

Year​	Division Standing​	Points Per Game​	Yards Per Game​
2001​	1st​	6th​	19th​
2002​	2nd​	10th​	21st​
2003​	1st​	12th​	17th​
2004​	1st​	4th​	7th​
2005​	1st​	10th​	7th​
2006​	1st​	7th​	11th​
2007​	1st​	1st​	1st​
2009​	1st​	6th​	3rd​
2010​	1st​	1st​	8th​
2011​	1st​	3rd​	2nd​
2012​	1st​	1st​	1st​
2013​	1st​	3rd​	7th​
2014​	1st​	4th​	11th​
2015​	1st​	3rd​	6th​
2016​	1st​	3rd​	4th​
2017​	1st​	2nd​	1st​
2018​	1st​	4th​	5th​
2019​	1st​	7th​	15th​
Average​	1.1​	4.9​	8.1​

Summary...

Belichick without Brady, 8 seasons, 0 division titles, 2 of 16 rankings inside top 10, 1 of 8 P/G inside top 10
Belichick with Brady, 18 seasons, 17 division titles, 29 of 36 rankings inside top 10, 17 of 18 P/G inside top 10

It's a good thing Brady had such a great coach all those years and it's good thing that BB had such a great QB all those years. See, everyone can be happy. It is not that hard to be happy when your favorite teams has won 6 SB's over a 20 year span with these two at the helm. Embrace the change and enjoy the ride of a rebuild and the excitement of a new direction. Nothing lasts forever, it's okay to grieve, but at some point it is time to move on.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ok hypocrite. You going to follow me around the message board telling people to ignore me?

My goal is to drive you off this board.

 

[Rob0729]

Typical nose-up-Belichick's-rear-end reasoning here. The Patriots won 12 games in 2019. How does a 12 win team suddenly have 3-5 win talent? It's great that you can just blame Belichick the GM when Belichick the coach doesn't meet expectations and yet still avoid the black hole circling around your head known as Tom Brady.

The Patriots were expected to win 8-9 games this season. Vegas determined that before the season based on their roster; handicappers don't give coaches themselves much consideration. What I mean is that the 8-9 win total already had Belichick baked into it. A handicapper said last year that Belichick might be worth 7 points a season when looking at the win/loss predictions.

I'm sure you'll talk about how these handicappers don't know as much as you, Rob, about the Patriots roster talent and Belichick's actual value because, you know, you are always the authority on that. But here's what actually happened in 2020:

• The Patriots were projected to be roughly a 9 win team competing for the AFC East or wild card.
• The Patriots had an overall net gain due to Covid (they were the only team in the NFL to get a starting QB for peanuts because Covid restrictions meant Cam couldn't do a physical and the Patriots were the only team looking for a starter. They lost some key players, notably Hightower, but overall the losses are highly exaggerated.)

The narrative as I heard it, as I have little doubt led by folks like you, was this:

• Because of Belichick's greatness, the Patriots will make the postseason.
• The Patriots will improve as the season goes on and be really good down the stretch.
• The Patriots have a team of overachievers and will never quit.
• The Patriots run a tight ship and will be better than the rest when it comes to Covid prevention and next man up.

Every single thing turned out to be the opposite. The Patriots underachieved all year. A 9-win projected team won 7 games. They got much worse down the stretch and collapsed in December. The team quit on numerous occassions with embarassing home blowout losses.

And yet, here you are, with Belichick did one hell of a job coaching up this team this year despite, as usual, every imaginable fact contradicting that. If they had gone 2-14, you would have marveled that no other coach would have won a single game. You're so predictable.

How does a 12 win team suddenly have 3-5 wins? When you lose your entire starting LB corp, your #1 WR, your starting SS, your starting RT, two of your starting D-linemen, and your starting QB from the previous year. That is eight new starters out of 22 positions. The 2020 team was very different from the 2019 team.

And what Vegas predicted is irrelevant. Did they predict it before or after about a half dozen Patriots decided to sit out the season due to COVID? Did they do it before they realized that Edelman would miss most of the season? Did they do it before they knew that Cam Newton couldn't throw the freaking ball.

And how did the Patriots have an overall net gain due to COVID when they lost Hightower, Cannon, Chung, and a few others who decided to sit out the season due to COVID. And the Pats lost Cam and Gilmore for several games to COVID. You might be the only person who thinks losing three starters is a net gain.

But thanks for providing insight into why you think my posts are so funny. You just don't understand football or logic. Those things are funny to you.

 

[Rob0729]

Totally agree that a subpar coach would have had his team go a lot worse than 7-9 with no QB, no receivers or TE, not much for defense and a tough schedule.

But we do know for sure now that the mighty Belichick "system" that supposedly propped up Brady - really ain't all that after all.

And I never argued that Brady was a product of the Belichick system. All I ever said that is Belichick was more important than Brady early in the dynasty. And that had a lot to do with the league because it was still the time when defenses won championships.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Just checking in on anything new we can criticize Bill on today?

 

[Rob0729]

So Bill paid Bledsoe a record breaking about of money in March but was putting Drew on a short leash 6 months later? If Bledsoe didn't fit the system he shouldn't have been re-signed and that is on Bill. There was definitely an element of luck in regards to the 2001 season for both Brady and Bill. Patten lying there dead on the sidelines against Buffalo with the ball under his legs rendering him out of bounds, playing the Rams in the regular season and giving the team confidence they could hang, a blizzard slowing down the Raiders and of course "The Tuck Rule". Neither one of them was who they are now and have both came a long way.

Again, I am going on what reporters have been reporting for years. You have a problem with what I said, you might want to address it to Michael Holley or any one of about two dozen Patriots related media people have said over the years.

And I think the one position that Kraft have always interfered with even after the Parcells debacle was QB. I think that may be the one area where he still maintains veto authority. Well, at least if the QB is the face of the franchise like Bledsoe was in the 90s and Brady every year since until this past season.

 

[Rob0729]

Half dozen quarterbacks like Drew Bledsoe for instance?... who Belichick was 5-13 with.

The Rams had a top 10 defense in points and yards against. You understand 2001 was Brady's first season as a starting quarterback in the NFL? Very few quarterbacks would have had the stones to pull off that last minute game-winning drive. Brady would go on to do it routinely in Super Bowls.


Brady led 5 game-winning drives during the 2003 regular season. He balled out in SB 38. The Patriots defense was excellent that season but they got completely smoked in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl... by Jake Delhomme for Christ's sake... who had 211 yards passing in the quarter. Brady countered with 156 yards passing of his own in the 4th quarterback and he led the game-winning drive.


What was the fluke? The Patriots had an incredibly easy schedule in 2008. Had Brady not missed the season they probably would have made another run at 19-0. As it was they lost to most of their quality opponents. From Brady to Cassel, with essentially the same supporting cast, was a huge drop-off in production at the quarterback and it showed up on the scoreboard and their record.

2007
Brady: 50 TD's & 4806 yards
Team P/G: 36.8
Team Record: 16-0

2008
Cassel: 21 TD's & 3693 yards
Team P/G: 25.6
Team Record: 11-5

Another example of Belichick not being able to hack it without Brady.

First, it was a fluke because the Pats won 11 games and didn't get into the playoffs. That happens once or twice every 20 years or so that an 11 win team doesn't get into the playoffs.

Second, I have gone through this game winning drive thing. Two of the game winning drives were in overtime where the Pats needed multiple possessions to score in overtime. That isn't taking the ball with 2 minutes left in the game and scoring a last second victory. That is just scoring last.

Also, the Pats had four games where they didn't score a single TD. They had I think six or seven games where they didn't score 17 point on offense. If you are going to give Brady credit game winning drives, you have to take credit away from him when the offense sputters.

Third, there were plenty of QBs who could have won with the Patriots in 2001. Brady was a true game manager. There were plenty of top QBs who could have done what the Patriots did. I don't how many could do that game winning drive in the Super Bowl, but a QB like Manning probably wouldn't have needed it.

Fourth, the Rams' defense averaged giving up 17.1 PPG. The Pats scored 13. They were below average.

 

[Rob0729]

Yeah


The notion that BB was a great coach this year is dubious, to say the least. I, personally, would say that he was somewhere in the vast "average" range for coaching. But, when you look at the context of the games, you can actually make a reasonable case that he did an uncharacteristically poor job and benefitted from some big breaks, so "great" would seem to be out the window.

I think he was a great coach this year. As a GM, you can definitely say he failed.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think he was a great coach this year.

Not even close.

 

[Rob0729]

By "day 1" I mean when he was named starter, not his rookie year. He was absolutely an elite QB from that point on. Guys like that can turn their teams around on a dime and that's what Brady did. I'm trying to think of QBs who could have done what Brady did vs Raiders and Rams in the playoffs. I can't think of many at all. That's the definition of elite.

The 2001 Rams defense was ranked 3rd in the league in DVOA. I believe DVOA factors in garbage time. I think they deserved the credit of their ranking and were every bit a challenge for the Pats offense as they should have been. Also the era being what it was where you could do what you wanted to QB and receivers. That should not be used against Brady - he was playing great competition.

The team turned around on a dime because in large part Bledsoe sucked and the defense hadn't gelled. The defense made a huge turn when Bryan Cox made a monster hit on someone I cannot remember. It set a new attitude for the defense that followed through the rest of the season. The Pats had the best defense in the league in terms of points allowed for the second half of the season that year.

And not to take away from Brady, but he was lucky he wasn't the goat (not the GOAT) of the Snow Bowl game. He was strip sacked in that game and only got away with it because of bad rule said he technically wasn't. And the offense only scored 13 points in the Super Bowl.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think he was a great coach this year. As a GM, you can definitely say he failed.

The GM doesn't know what the coach needs to win? Maybe those two should talk.