Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Actual Pats Fan]

Belichick and Brady both knew Trump personally (Belichick was/is a member of Mar-A-Lago and Brady's association is well known but was always a celebrity crossover deal before 2016.) You could make the opposite case about Belichick and Brady endorsing Trump, based on their national anthem comments which were more recent.

Whatever it is, both have intentionally steered clear of politics for a long time. We probably shouldn't try to read too much into what they believe or who they endorse, since we really don't know. It isn't 2016 anymore.

Frankly, I hate that Belichick has been dragged into this. No matter what, lots of people will hate him.

Everybody hates Bill (and us) anyway!

Meanwhile racist Halas and ******* Shula are revered.

F*ck propaganda. And Cousy accepted his. The insurrection is nothing to me next to torture and murder of thousands of innocent children, women and men just for racism, sadism and white supremacy. That is not political. It's minimally humanitarian.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Everybody hates Bill (and us) anyway!

Meanwhile racist Halas and ******* Shula are revered.

F*ck propaganda. And Cousy accepted his. The insurrection is nothing to me next to torture and murder of thousands of innocent children, women and men just for racism, sadism and white supremacy. That is not political. It's minimally humanitarian.

It was really sad reading the comments on Twitter about Bill. A lot of people were praising him for the decision, but still everything was snarky about how he's a cheater and lacks integrity. The people who don't really know football brought up that he's been involved in so many scandals because they only know the superficial BREAKING NEWS part of his legacy.

Really, Bill's reputation could not be further from the media perception. Sure, he has tried to get an edge like most coaches; even if you argued he was a really slimy coach in terms of rule breaking, it really sucks how people think he's some crummy person without morals.

 

[Tunescribe]

It was really sad reading the comments on Twitter about Bill. A lot of people were praising him for the decision, but still everything was snarky about how he's a cheater and lacks integrity. The people who don't really know football brought up that he's been involved in so many scandals because they only know the superficial BREAKING NEWS part of his legacy.

Really, Bill's reputation could not be further from the media perception. Sure, he has tried to get an edge like most coaches; even if you argued he was a really slimy coach in terms of rule breaking, it really sucks how people think he's some crummy person without morals.

Cameragate, especially, was a load of crap BB and the Patriots didn't deserve getting skewered over.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Cameragate, especially, was a load of crap BB and the Patriots didn't deserve getting skewered over.

DefameGate and CryGate are equally specious to me.

 

[Tony2046]

Not overblown at all. Blatant and deliberate disregard for league rules by Belichick. Simultaneously arrogant and ignorant. Belichick received the largest fine ever imposed on a coach in the history of the league and the team lost their 1st round draft pick. It's a huge stain not only on Belichick's reputation but on the franchise's as well. As you're pointing out it's still a talking point for bashing the team. So thanks a lot Bill.

He doesn't get credit for "cooperating and turning over the tapes" either because unless he wanted to lose his job he had no choice.

It was overblown. Camera placement gate.

Your emotional hawt takes are basically Cliff Kellerman-ish.

That's called diverting all attention from yourself and directly onto your franchise quarterback. Worse, Belichick's comments insinuate Brady's "preference on his footballs" had something to do with the allegedly deflated footballs.

I guess you missed the whole Mona Lisa Vito thing. One BBs classics. You should pay closer attention to things you want to rant about.

Oh swell now Belichick was "protecting Butler." Give me a break. He was sticking it to him, had him crying on the sideline. Butler became an increasing focus throughout the telecast... haplessly standing there on the sideline while lesser players were getting repeatedly torched by a backup quarterback. Then after the loss, it became a bigger story as Butler was hounded by the media. That a reason for the benching wasn't provided only made it worse as the speculative reasons were all attacks on Butler's character... he was caught using drugs, he assaulted a coach, etc. It was a malicious attempt by Belichick to devalue and humiliate one of his players under a huge spotlight. It blew up in his face. It cost him, his players, the Krafts, and everyone else associated with the team a championship. It's now one of many significant black marks

Butler did something. He implied in a later interview that he wasn't ready. I will never know what happened. I wish he had played but to take it to the level of absurdity that you have is ridiculous. "He should be fired". "most overrated coach in NFL history". Get the **** out here with that BS.

Oh, and they won the very next super bowl. 4 super bowls in 5 years? You've got nothing but trolling hawt takes.

#ban the crackspanker.

 

[crawhammer]

Oh, and they won the very next super bowl. 4 super bowls in 5 years?

Right, 9 Super Bowl appearances in 18 seasons, and 6 titles, none of which would have happened without Brady. You think Belichick was getting to even 1 Super Bowl with Bledsoe? Cam 2.0 in 2021?

It was overblown. Camera placement gate.

So adhering to league rules is unimportant? A 1st round draft pick is unimportant?

I guess you missed the whole Mona Lisa Vito thing. One BBs classics.

What's your point? By then Belichick had already made the comments I quoted. Comments that implicated Brady.

Butler did something. He implied in a later interview that he wasn't ready.

No, he didn't.

Butler immediately after SB 51:

"They gave up on me. F*ck. It is what it is. It was a coach's decision. I don't know what it was. I guess I wasn't playing good. They didn't feel comfortable. I could have changed that game, though."

Butler in SI interview:

"There was times when I was on the sideline and I just wanted to go up and say to Belichick or Matt Patricia and just say, 'Is this how we're gonna end this?' I grew up in the Patriots system and I'm a man of God. I respect my authority and I just couldn't ask them for something they didn't want to do. I just was doing my job. I was close to going up there and saying what I wanted to say to Matt or Belichick, but I just stayed in my lane and just did my job. And I really wanted to go ask him, but I didn't."

Butler on Instagram:

"During Super Bowl week I never attended any concert, missed curfew or participated [in] any of the ridiculous activities being reported. They are not only false, but hurtful to me and my family. Although I wish I could have contributed more to help my team win, I have to get ready for the next opportunity."

Belichick to NBC's Michelle Tafoya:

"I made the decisions that give us the best chance to win."

Belichick in post game press conference:

"We put the best players out there and the game plan out there that we thought would be the best tonight, like we always do."

BB = Liar

 

[Tony2046]

Right, 9 Super Bowl appearances in 18 seasons, and 6 titles, none of which would have happened without Brady. You think Belichick was getting to even 1 Super Bowl with Bledsoe? Cam 2.0 in 2021?

More than any team ever. Not good enough for the crackspanker but good enough for me.

What's your point? By then Belichick had already made the comments I quoted. Comments that implicated Brady.

Only a troll would dismiss BBs follow up comments. He clearly got the bigger picture and went into a full defense of Brady. But a troll is going to troll.

No, he didn't

Yes he did.

Butler went on to take the blame, saying he probably was not "locked in and focused 100 percent".

“I wasn’t feeling too well," he said. "I felt like that was kind of part of it. Not to blame anybody. I accept full responsibly for myself. I am not blaming the New England Patriots or no one. It could have been just me, you know. It could have been anything, but I was not feeling too well and the New England Patriots are all about doing their job and they want everybody locked in and focused 100 percent and that probably was not the case. I am glad to be a Tennessee Titan.


#Ban the troll crackspanker

 

[TheRainMaker]

Just checking in on the back and forth bickering.

Carry on.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Some are just not over Brady leaving. And they blame Bill for that and now it's scorched earth time on the coach. I get it, I really do.

I'm over all of that now. The Patriots aren't a team that's good but brought down by their coach. No they are a lousy football team. There's no reason to think they are good enough to go anywhere even if Brady stayed. That's not opinion that's a fact. Firing Bill now will pretty much guarantee it stays that way for at least the rest of the 2020's. Let's all cheer for GM Bill to fix this team. I believe he will especially if motivated by Brady's success in Tampa but it won't be done overnight.

I don't think the team was that far off. They have a good O-line, they have good RB's and they have a good secondary. But their front 7 and skill players (WR/TE) are atrocious and among the worst in the league. Bill had a couple chances to fix at least the WR position, but he keeps ignoring it. The front 7 badly needs a makeover, but Brady has made the team competitive even when they've had terrible front 7's or secondary's in the past.

 

[carmelo15]

If Butler had done anything truly egregious then a credible source would have reported it by now. I honestly think it was a minor infraction or violation of team rules and Belichick just took the punishment too far because he had personal animus toward Butler for previously declining the team's contract offer.

what could he have done that even gives BB the right to throw the game. Short of murder or rape I don’t know and he obviously didn’t do that. Big deal he violated a team rule hes gonna be a free agent don’t resign him it’s that simple after half time how do you not put him in

 

[crawhammer]

More than any team ever. Not good enough for the crackspanker but good enough for me.

If Belichick wasn't f*cking up every other season then the team would have won 10 Super Bowls.

Oh great now that Brady is transforming another franchise from obscurity to greatness, we can go back to watching Belichick fail like he always has without Brady.

BB - TB = 0-8

He clearly got the bigger picture and went into a full defense of Brady.

So Bill's a bit slow? Is that what you're saying? Duly noted.

Yes he did.

That quote you provided, Butler doesn't admit to doing anything, nor does he say he wasn't ready to play in the game.

Butler made a few very straightforward comments about the Super Bowl:

"I wanted to go up to Belichick or Matt Patricia and just say is this how we're gonna end this?"

"I wish I could have contributed more to help my team win."

"I could have changed that game, though."

Butler was ready to play. And apparently unlike Bill, he like everyone else who wasn't thinking like a complete tool, knew he would have changed the outcome of that game.

You're so confident Butler did something. So what was it? Butler denies he did anything even remotely noteworthy. Whatever he did, it was so minor that Brady didn't know about it. Even Brady, when he wasn't busy carving up Philly's defense, had time to think to himself, why isn't Malcolm playing?

The logical conclusion is Belichick made a rather arbitrary and reckless decision. Belichick lost Super Bowl 51. Not Brady. Not the hapless incompetents he had playing instead of Butler. Belichick lost the game. 100% Belichick's fault.

 

[Tunescribe]

If Belichick wasn't f*cking up every other season then the team would have won 10 Super Bowls.

And Crockspammer takes the early lead for worst post of 2021! This one will be hard to top, folks.

 

[Tony2046]

If Belichick wasn't f*cking up every other season then the team would have won 10 Super Bowls.

Why not 20? Why did Knoll and Bradshaw only get 4? Walsh and Montana? Only 3? What?

Injuries, coaching decisions, interceptions, the other team gets paid too and slew of other things including the wind or the bounce of a fumbled ball play a part in the outcome of any game.

The best HC / QB combo in the history of the NFL went to 5 more super bowls and won 2 more than the next most successful duo and you wanted more. You're trolling with that nonsense.

Oh great now that Brady is transforming another franchise from obscurity to greatness, we can go back to watching Belichick fail like he always has without Brady.

What was Landry without Staubach? Walsh without Montana? Knoll without Bradshaw?

I'm just glad we got to see the best combo ever dominate for twenty years. No other fanbase can say that. But you wanted more?

BB - TB = 0-8

TB - BB = 0

So Bill's a bit slow? Is that what you're saying? Duly noted

One of the best press conferences BB has ever done. But trolls are going to troll. Duly noted.

That quote you provided, Butler doesn't admit to doing anything, nor does he say he wasn't ready to play in the game.

Regardless. Something happened and I wish I knew. My problem with your position isn't whether or not he should have played, because I wish he did, rather it's the preposterous idea that BB should have been fired. Epitome of trolling.

The logical conclusion is Belichick made a rather arbitrary and reckless decision. Belichick lost Super Bowl 51. Not Brady. Not the hapless incompetents he had playing instead of Butler. Belichick lost the game. 100% Belichick's fault

His other decisions won them six. More than any other ever.

# Ban the Crackspanker

 

[SHOWTIME15]

If Belichick wasn't f*cking up every other season then the team would have won 10 Super Bowls.

Oh great now that Brady is transforming another franchise from obscurity to greatness, we can go back to watching Belichick fail like he always has without Brady.

BB - TB = 0-8


So Bill's a bit slow? Is that what you're saying? Duly noted.


That quote you provided, Butler doesn't admit to doing anything, nor does he say he wasn't ready to play in the game.

Butler made a few very straightforward comments about the Super Bowl:

"I wanted to go up to Belichick or Matt Patricia and just say is this how we're gonna end this?"

"I wish I could have contributed more to help my team win."

"I could have changed that game, though."

Butler was ready to play. And apparently unlike Bill, he like everyone else who wasn't thinking like a complete tool, knew he would have changed the outcome of that game.

You're so confident Butler did something. So what was it? Butler denies he did anything even remotely noteworthy. Whatever he did, it was so minor that Brady didn't know about it. Even Brady, when he wasn't busy carving up Philly's defense, had time to think to himself, why isn't Malcolm playing?

The logical conclusion is Belichick made a rather arbitrary and reckless decision. Belichick lost Super Bowl 51. Not Brady. Not the hapless incompetents he had playing instead of Butler. Belichick lost the game. 100% Belichick's fault.

What's so great about this year's Buccaneers team? The fact that they are 1-5 against winning teams?

 

[crawhammer]

And Crockspammer takes the early lead for worst post of 2021! This one will be hard to top, folks.

I didn't literally mean 10 Super Bowls so I'll dial back the comment... So setting aside whatever arguable contributions Belichick made to the SB title seasons (i.e. the comeback "well BB won 6 titles so what more do you want" doesn't apply), Belichick literally cost the team 2 Super Bowls. Really I want to say 3 including 2006 but the cause/effect isn't as obvious there as it is with 2015 and 2017.

2017 is an easy one due to the glaring Butler benching in SB 51. Butler played nearly 100% of the defensive snaps for every game (regular and postseason) for three consecutive years. He played 0% in SB 51. The secondary, specifically the DB's, got abused for the entirety of the game. By a backup quarterback with a .500 career winning percentage and an average of 205 passing yards per game.

The Eagles drives in SB 51:

FG (67 yards)
TD (77 yards)
Punt
TD (65 yards)
INT
TD (70 yards)
TD (85 yards)
FG (51 yards)
TD (75 yards)

That's reflective of insanely bad defense. 7 scoring drives of 50+ yards; 4 scoring drives of 70+ yards. The Eagles finished with 538 total yards; Foles finished with 373 passing yards.

The Patriots offense was even more impressive... they had a 90-yard TD drive in the first half and three consecutive 75-yard TD drives in the second half. They set a record for most total yards in a SB (613) and most points by a losing team (33). They punted 0 times. Brady obliterated the passing yards record with 505 (topping his own previous mark of 466 against Atlanta). Despite all that, they lost the game because the defense was so horrendously bad. The DB's looked utterly confused from start to finish. They couldn't cover or tackle. Not only was Rowe awful but there was a ripple effect throughout the secondary. It's the most obvious reason for loss. Is it then unreasonable to say the Patriots lost the game because Butler was benched by Belichick? Seems like a reasonable conclusion to me.

2015 included three games that Belichick screwed up. Week 13 against the Eagles with the foolish rugby KO that completely altered the momentum of the game. Week 16 against the Jets by electing to kickoff to start OT. Week 17 against the Dolphins (and the immortal Dan Campbell) with the ridiculous game plan that included 18 handoffs to Steven Jackson and Brandon Bolden in their first 20 offensive snaps. Classic example of Belichick thinking he's smarter than everyone else by signing a retired (and completely spent) RB in Jackson. Of course it didn't work out.

The Patriots win any one of these three games in 2015 and they would have retained the #1 seed which would had a broken down Peyton Manning dragging his sorry ass into Gillette for one last ass-whipping before he retired. Instead we lost by a whisker at Denver in the AFCCG before having to watch Manning and Newton compete for the worst Super Bowl performance ever by a quarterback. Had the Patriots held onto the #1 seed, like they certainly should have, then they would have beaten the Broncos and easily beaten the Panthers given that Brady never would have stunk it up like Newton in the SB.

So yeah, Belichick cost the Patriots 2 Super Bowls.

What was Landry without Staubach? Walsh without Montana? Knoll without Bradshaw?

So you're admitting it's all about the quarterback. Thank you. Brady > Belichick

What's so great about this year's Buccaneers team? The fact that they are 1-5 against winning teams?

Brady. He was good for a 4-game swing in their record, which is about right, an elite franchise quarterback will generally account for 4-5 wins. Brady flipped the Patriots record from 5-11 to 11-5 (really 5-13 to 14-3) in his first season. From 2007 to 2008 his absence meant 5 losses. And this season he got Tampa Bay into the postseason for the first time since 2007 (when they were 9-7). Their season isn't over by the way. However, I don't see them winning the Super Bowl this season because their secondary sucks and they'll probably have to beat Brees, Rodgers and Mahomes to do it. Brady's winning #7 next season though.

 

[Tony2046]

So you're admitting it's all about the quarterback. Thank you. Brady > Belichick

Wrong again.

There are ringless great QBs. Why is that?

Marino/ Shula. - 0

Kelly / Levy

Elway / Reeves

Etc etc

Coaches matter too.

#Ban the hawt take troll

 

[crawhammer]

There are ringless great QBs. Why is that?

Compared to Brady... Jim Kelly was a stiff. He was a train wreck in the playoffs generally and flat out horrendous in the Super Bowls. The only Super Bowl he didn't completely gag was the first one against the Giants. Even still the best thing he did that game was handoff to Thurman Thomas. They should have won that first one because they got smoked in the next three. Kelly was a disaster against Washington, throwing 4 picks before he threw 2 garbage time TD's. The back-to-back losses to the Cowboys, they should forfeited and saved themselves the embarrassment.

Kelly, 4 Super Bowls (0-4), 2 TD's, 7 INT's

John Elway, he sucked in his Super Bowl appearances as well. The 0-3 with Reeves... Elway was awful in each and the games weren't competitive at all. The two he won with Shanahan, the first was won on the legs of Terrell Davis, the second, Elway was fine, he hit Rod Smith with an 80-yard bomb, but their defense carried the day (forcing a bunch of turnovers). Bottom line, Elway never wins a Super Bowl if not for Terrell Davis.

Elway, 5 Super Bowls (2-3), 3 TD's, 8 INT's

Dan Marino, ugh... as great as I think he was, the fact is he made way too many mistakes in the playoffs. 24 picks in 18 games. As he was fading toward the latter part of his career, hindered by injuries, he only got much worse in the playoffs. Among the bigger underachievements in NFL history was Marino not winning a Super Bowl. The one he got to, he got completed outperformed by Montana.

My takeaway... Brady has been consistently good and phenomenally clutch in the postseason. Unlike these other three all-time greats who combined for 10 Super Bowl appearances, 2 wins, 8 losses, 6 TD's and 17 INT's.

Brady... 9 Super Bowls, 6 wins, 3 losses, 18 TD's and 6 INT's.

So yeah, while coaches matter, sometimes they matter less, and sometimes they don't matter at all. In those combined 8 Super Bowl losses for Kelly, Elway and Marino, they had 5 TD's and 16 INT's... no coach is overcoming that mess. It's a lot easier for a coach to win Super Bowls when he has the greatest quarterback of all-time putting the team in the lead in 9 out of 9 times late in the 4th quarter.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Compared to Brady... Jim Kelly was a stiff. He was a train wreck in the playoffs generally and flat out horrendous in the Super Bowls. The only Super Bowl he didn't completely gag was the first one against the Giants. Even still the best thing he did that game was handoff to Thurman Thomas. They should have won that first one because they got smoked in the next three. Kelly was a disaster against Washington, throwing 4 picks before he threw 2 garbage time TD's. The back-to-back losses to the Cowboys, they should forfeited and saved themselves the embarrassment.

Kelly, 4 Super Bowls (0-4), 2 TD's, 7 INT's

John Elway, he sucked in his Super Bowl appearances as well. The 0-3 with Reeves... Elway was awful in each and the games weren't competitive at all. The two he won with Shanahan, the first was won on the legs of Terrell Davis, the second, Elway was fine, he hit Rod Smith with an 80-yard bomb, but their defense carried the day (forcing a bunch of turnovers). Bottom line, Elway never wins a Super Bowl if not for Terrell Davis.

Elway, 5 Super Bowls (2-3), 3 TD's, 8 INT's

Dan Marino, ugh... as great as I think he was, the fact is he made way too many mistakes in the playoffs. 24 picks in 18 games. As he was fading toward the latter part of his career, hindered by injuries, he only got much worse in the playoffs. Among the bigger underachievements in NFL history was Marino not winning a Super Bowl. The one he got to, he got completed outperformed by Montana.

My takeaway... Brady has been consistently good and phenomenally clutch in the postseason. Unlike these other three all-time greats who combined for 10 Super Bowl appearances, 2 wins, 8 losses, 6 TD's and 17 INT's.

Brady... 9 Super Bowls, 6 wins, 3 losses, 18 TD's and 6 INT's.

So yeah, while coaches matter, sometimes they matter less, and sometimes they don't matter at all. In those combined 8 Super Bowl losses for Kelly, Elway and Marino, they had 5 TD's and 16 INT's... no coach is overcoming that mess. It's a lot easier for a coach to win Super Bowls when he has the greatest quarterback of all-time putting the team in the lead in 9 out of 9 times late in the 4th quarter.

You make some really good points here, referencing several facts that people usually ignore. Thanks, man.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady's so good he purposely threw for 199 today. Now tell me what other quarterback could have done that?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Brady's so good he purposely threw for 199 today. Now tell me what other quarterback could have done that?

I was wondering when this thread was going to get resurrected. Team Bill has been silent right now. Tom getting to the NFCCG without him in his first year is a bad look for Billy!