Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[jdlboot14]

I think the argument should be if Brady was propping up JMD - which I think is completely true. This might not be a BB debate.
JMD went to Denver and failed, and couldn't find a way to copy the SEA gameplan the rest of the year with Cam. (although who could win with Cam?) We'll see this year - whether with the Pats or someone else.

 

[sb1]

Revisionist history here.

Bill took full accountability for “Spygate,” as absurdly overblown as it was. He turned over all the tapes and cooperated, admitted he had done it. If he had perhaps thrown an assistant or cameraman under the bus (see Josh McDaniels in Denver, for example, along with virtually every powerful person facing the criticism of a scandal) then maybe he wouldn’t still be marred by the media 13 years later. Spygate was overblown crap and you know it.

Did you miss the Deflategate press conference when Bill tried to prove the balls couldn’t have been deflated (and was right about the air pressure)? I don’t know how you could say he threw Brady under the bus when he specifically defended him, went through the entire ball preparation process, showed how weather effects air pressure, etc. Where did he say Brady was guilty, besides through ESPN mind readers on Twitter?

I can’t stand the Butler benching either, but humiliating Butler is far from the concern there. If anything, it sure seemed like he protected Butler (an impending free agent) with an extreme “what happens in house stays in house” stonewalling of the media and public, though my guess is Bill would have gotten off a lot easier on criticism if he’d leaked Butler’s behavior.

Bill's two biggest blunders as a coach by far are Spygate, and the Butler benching in that order. Everything else is nitpicking. If he did what he was hired to do and that's doing his job by the rulebook instead of trying to play lawyer with the wording of the rules and the memo (and he admitted it) it wouldn't have happened. Bill is here to coach not be a lawyer with the rules. Yeah he took full accountability for it and admitted his mistake but the grief that the Pats organization and us fans have had to go through since then is still all on BB. I'm glad I'm not Kraft or I might have fired him for that tbh.

The Butler benching threw away a SB, and in my view, was the beginning of the end of Gronk and then Brady's time here.

Spygate was on Bill, Deflategate was on "good of the 32" Kraft for not standing up for his team for this farce.

Bill isn't perfect as a coach, neither was Lombardi, neither was Shula or anyone else in the GOAT conversation. Brady isn't perfect as a QB either. I think Brady's mistakes over the years could fill up a topic as well. Nobody is perfect and nobody should expect them to be.

 

[sb1]

Come on. Just because Brady left? We had the number one defense last year. The NFL DPOY. Solid run game etc. What is this? “BB you have no TE? Oh you mean you whiffed on your draft picks and can’t find any in FA? In that case 5-11 record is ok”.

We had an overall pretty good football team. Hell we were 10-1 last year at one point and talking about all-time great defense. Suddenly 5 games later “guys our roster is worst in league top to bottom” COME ON!!

Frankly if we hadn't lost to the Dolphins, gotten the bye, avoided a bad match-up with Titans. Chiefs would have played the Titans and beaten them (like they did in AFC Championship), And I bet we beat the Chiefs at home or have a good shot at it. We might have lost to Ravens in AFC Championship but playoffs would have been very different.

BB’s coaching sucked this year. The roster wasn't THAT bad.

Not really and yes it was that bad.

Brady's attitude here last year sucked to be honest. Justified or not I think that had just as much to do with the quick playoff exit as anything else and we have some evidence that it was not appreciated by his teammates. I was pretty vocal about that at the start of the season but I'm over it now.

Like I said, Bill is not a perfect coach and Brady is not perfect either. Nobody is.

 

[crawhammer]

Firstly, for those avoiding the results, we're up to 110 voters and it's Brady in a landslide with 70%.

Bill took full accountability for “Spygate,” as absurdly overblown as it was. He turned over all the tapes and cooperated, admitted he had done it. If he had perhaps thrown an assistant or cameraman under the bus (see Josh McDaniels in Denver, for example, along with virtually every powerful person facing the criticism of a scandal) then maybe he wouldn’t still be marred by the media 13 years later. Spygate was overblown crap and you know it.

Not overblown at all. Blatant and deliberate disregard for league rules by Belichick. Simultaneously arrogant and ignorant. Belichick received the largest fine ever imposed on a coach in the history of the league and the team lost their 1st round draft pick. It's a huge stain not only on Belichick's reputation but on the franchise's as well. As you're pointing out it's still a talking point for bashing the team. So thanks a lot Bill.

He doesn't get credit for "cooperating and turning over the tapes" either because unless he wanted to lose his job he had no choice.

Did you miss the Deflategate press conference when Bill tried to prove the balls couldn’t have been deflated (and was right about the air pressure)? I don’t know how you could say he threw Brady under the bus when he specifically defended him, went through the entire ball preparation process, showed how weather effects air pressure, etc. Where did he say Brady was guilty, besides through ESPN mind readers on Twitter?

Belichick's initial press conference regarding the matter he said:

"Tom's personal preference on his footballs are something he can talk about in much better detail than I can possibly provide. I can tell you that in my entire coaching career I have never talked to any player, staff member about football air pressure. That is not a subject I've ever brought up."

That's called diverting all attention from yourself and directly onto your franchise quarterback. Worse, Belichick's comments insinuate Brady's "preference on his footballs" had something to do with the allegedly deflated footballs.

I can’t stand the Butler benching either, but humiliating Butler is far from the concern there. If anything, it sure seemed like he protected Butler (an impending free agent) with an extreme “what happens in house stays in house” stonewalling of the media and public, though my guess is Bill would have gotten off a lot easier on criticism if he’d leaked Butler’s behavior.

Oh swell now Belichick was "protecting Butler." Give me a break. He was sticking it to him, had him crying on the sideline. Butler became an increasing focus throughout the telecast... haplessly standing there on the sideline while lesser players were getting repeatedly torched by a backup quarterback. Then after the loss, it became a bigger story as Butler was hounded by the media. That a reason for the benching wasn't provided only made it worse as the speculative reasons were all attacks on Butler's character... he was caught using drugs, he assaulted a coach, etc. It was a malicious attempt by Belichick to devalue and humiliate one of his players under a huge spotlight. It blew up in his face. It cost him, his players, the Krafts, and everyone else associated with the team a championship. It's now one of many significant black marks on Bill's résumé.

 

[crawhammer]

That is just a convenient after the fact second guess. That kick barely gave the Eagles anything beyond 16 yards. Pats were one play away from forcing a 3 and out. If the Pats had stopped them and they punted would it still have been the play of the game? That kicked somehow impacted the blocked punt at the end of the half or the other big plays? The Eagles scored on the pooch kick drive yet went 3 and out on their next drive. IS the kick momentum still alive or do we need to wait for the block punt for it to come back into play? Why isn't the on-side kick by Washington this past weekend the defining play of that game as they had just scored? What about the Saints on-side kick in the Superbowl or is that one OK because it worked? The Patriots lost that game due to the 3 generally fluky big plays and none of them had anything to do with that pooch kick.

The pooch kick was Belichick trying to show off one of his toys in the middle of a friggin game of consequence. There was no strategy behind the pooch kick. Rather it was Bill thinking he's being cute. Completely irresponsible and inexcusable coaching decision.

 

[sb1]

Oh swell now Belichick was "protecting Butler." Give me a break. He was sticking it to him, had him crying on the sideline. Butler became an increasing focus throughout the telecast... haplessly standing there on the sideline while lesser players were getting repeatedly torched by a backup quarterback. Then after the loss, it became a bigger story as Butler was hounded by the media. That a reason for the benching wasn't provided only made it worse as the speculative reasons were all attacks on Butler's character... he was caught using drugs, he assaulted a coach, etc. It was a malicious attempt by Belichick to devalue and humiliate one of his players under a huge spotlight. It blew up in his face. It cost him, his players, the Krafts, and everyone else associated with the team a championship. It's now one of many significant black marks on Bill's résumé.

I have no idea why he was benched nor Bill's motivation for it and nobody else does either. I wish I did.

Especially not for the whole game when anyone can see what impact it had on the field. All I know is removing our best tackling corner forced guys into the game or into positions that had no business being there. The results were predictable. It lost the game.

Worst case scenario - caught using drugs or assaulting a coach? That still doesn't justify it. That justifies telling him not to bother getting on the plane back to Boston but not to throw away a SB game by keeping your best tackling corner on the sidelines when his replacements can't stop a nosebleed on third down. I mean it's not a regular season Jets game, it's a Super Bowl and there is never a guarantee a team will ever play one ever again. You don't throw a SB away to make a point like that. I don't know what it was and I wish we would know to get some closure on it.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I have no idea why he was benched nor Bill's motivation for it and nobody else does either. I wish I did.

Especially not for the whole game when anyone can see what impact it had on the field. All I know is removing our best tackling corner forced guys into the game or into positions that had no business being there. The results were predictable. It lost the game.

Worst case scenario - caught using drugs or assaulting a coach? That still doesn't justify it. That justifies telling him not to bother getting on the plane back to Boston but not to throw away a SB game by keeping your best tackling corner on the sidelines when his replacements can't stop a nosebleed on third down. I mean it's not a regular season Jets game, it's a Super Bowl and there is never a guarantee a team will ever play one ever again. You don't throw a SB away to make a point like that. I don't know what it was and I wish we would know to get some closure on it.

Maybe Cam knows that would explain why he was playing so much

 

[sb1]

Maybe Cam knows that would explain why he was playing so much

i KNÖW why ßUTLÊR wàs ßÊNCHÊD!!

 

[crawhammer]

2016 - without bills coaching of "running the hills" the team probably doesn't have the stamina to outlast atlanta. Yes, brady brought them back in it but it was a combo of coaching and brady that won it.

So they came back from a 28-3 deficit because they ran up some hills in July? I'd say Brady going 27-34 for 287 on five consecutive scoring drives had a bit more to do with it.

 

[sb1]

This thread is a perfect example why some posters trash oon brady in the tampa thread. Now I am supposed to believe that Bill is a horrible coach and should be fired.

Some are just not over Brady leaving. And they blame Bill for that and now it's scorched earth time on the coach. I get it, I really do.

I'm over all of that now. The Patriots aren't a team that's good but brought down by their coach. No they are a lousy football team. There's no reason to think they are good enough to go anywhere even if Brady stayed. That's not opinion that's a fact. Firing Bill now will pretty much guarantee it stays that way for at least the rest of the 2020's. Let's all cheer for GM Bill to fix this team. I believe he will especially if motivated by Brady's success in Tampa but it won't be done overnight.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Worst case scenario - caught using drugs or assaulting a coach? That still doesn't justify it. That justifies telling him not to bother getting on the plane back to Boston but not to throw away a SB game by keeping your best tackling corner on the sidelines when his replacements can't stop a nosebleed on third down. I mean it's not a regular season Jets game, it's a Super Bowl and there is never a guarantee a team will ever play one ever again. You don't throw a SB away to make a point like that. I don't know what it was and I wish we would know to get some closure on it.

wrong, if you assaulted a coach, you deserve to sit. and quite frankly, if butler weren’t a free agent that offseason and Bill not helping him out, we would have found out more about what happened.

 

[sb1]

wrong, if you assaulted a coach, you deserve to sit. and quite frankly, if butler weren’t a free agent that offseason and Bill not helping him out, we would have found out more about what happened.

Well - if that's what really happened he would have been cut before the game not benched, and I doubt he would have gotten the benefit of the doubt from Bill in that case.

There is no justification for the benching the way it happened.

 

[203Pat]

Bill's two biggest blunders as a coach by far are Spygate, and the Butler benching in that order. Everything else is nitpicking. If he did what he was hired to do and that's doing his job by the rulebook instead of trying to play lawyer with the wording of the rules and the memo (and he admitted it) it wouldn't have happened. Bill is here to coach not be a lawyer with the rules. Yeah he took full accountability for it and admitted his mistake but the grief that the Pats organization and us fans have had to go through since then is still all on BB. I'm glad I'm not Kraft or I might have fired him for that tbh.

The Butler benching threw away a SB, and in my view, was the beginning of the end of Gronk and then Brady's time here.

Spygate was on Bill, Deflategate was on "good of the 32" Kraft for not standing up for his team for this farce.

Bill isn't perfect as a coach, neither was Lombardi, neither was Shula or anyone else in the GOAT conversation. Brady isn't perfect as a QB either. I think Brady's mistakes over the years could fill up a topic as well. Nobody is perfect and nobody should expect them to be.

I think his biggest blunder is not having a plan post Brady when both sides knew 2019 would be it.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady's attitude here last year sucked to be honest. Justified or not I think that had just as much to do with the quick playoff exit as anything else and we have some evidence that it was not appreciated by his teammates. I was pretty vocal about that at the start of the season but I'm over it now.

Brady had realistic expectations of the team in 2019. He knew the roster was weak in some key areas, particularly on offense. Nearly all of Belichick's investments on the offensive side of the ball were not working out. The team, and I suppose Belichick directly, had been ****ing Brady around with his contract, to a point where Brady essentially agreed to one last season in New England before testing the free agent market. Belichick completed bungled his handling of Brady. I think Brady had made it clear that he wanted to finish out his career in New England however Belichick excluded that option. It's one of three incredibly obvious blunders by Belichick: 1) Spygate, 2) Butler benching and 3) hastening Brady's exit.

I'm not sure where you're seeing "evidence" that Brady was not appreciated by his teammates in 2019. I'd like to see examples. As far as I'm concerned that narrative was a creation of some local media pundits.

 

[sb1]

I think his biggest blunder is not having a plan post Brady when both sides knew 2019 would be it.

For sure, that's on GM Bill. Would have been nice if we had an actual QB prospect that was ready. I have a feeling we can't rule out yøu KÑØW whø coming back....

 

[crawhammer]

wrong, if you assaulted a coach, you deserve to sit. and quite frankly, if butler weren’t a free agent that offseason and Bill not helping him out, we would have found out more about what happened.

If Butler had done anything truly egregious then a credible source would have reported it by now. I honestly think it was a minor infraction or violation of team rules and Belichick just took the punishment too far because he had personal animus toward Butler for previously declining the team's contract offer.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Well - if that's what really happened he would have been cut before the game not benched, and I doubt he would have gotten the benefit of the doubt from Bill in that case.

There is no justification for the benching the way it happened.

That 100%! If it was this bad why getting him active? If that happened after the inactive list and it was this bad stuff would have been leaked and we will know.

the fact that we don’t know a thing and feels like the biggest secret in NE let me to believe that Bill didn’t want this to get out because that would have made him look even worse.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

For sure, that's on GM Bill. Would have been nice if we had an actual QB prospect that was ready. I have a feeling we can't rule out yøu KÑØW whø coming back....

What will it say about Bill if this free agency all our leader leaves and not necessarily to cash in? White, Andrews, Thuney, Guy, Butler.

i don’t necessarily think that will happen but if it does will it be a knock against Bill or not?

 

[amfootball]

What will it say about Bill if this free agency all our leader leaves and not necessarily to cash in? White, Andrews, Thuney, Guy, Butler.

i don’t necessarily think that will happen but if it does will it be a knock against Bill or not?

There will be a huge exodus. Bill is not going to pay top market for any of those guys. What will really rub the dirt in is when some of them sign with Tampa.

 

[sb1]

What will it say about Bill if this free agency all our leader leaves and not necessarily to cash in? White, Andrews, Thuney, Guy, Butler.

i don’t necessarily think that will happen but if it does will it be a knock against Bill or not?

Hard to say what will happen. White is 50/50. I don't think the Pats will keep Thuney - some team will back up the Brinks truck for him and Pats will take the comp pick. They could afford him but there are too many other holes on offense and defense to match something like that. I think Guy and Butler will stay. J-Mac will probably go. Not sure about Folk - I think the Pats are set up with a competition at kicker with Aguayo and Rohrwasser. I think Andrews and Jackson stay.

Cam - who knows. He'd have to accept another prove-it deal for sure. I don't think the odds of him coming back are as remote as we'd like them to be. I also don't think Stidham makes the team in 2021.