Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Brady6]

Because Cam cant get the ball to White or Edelman and Brady could. Cam is starving these guys out.

White 107 yds and 2 TDs.
Edelman has 0 TDs.

Brady would have this team in the post season because Meyers is better in his 2nd season and Byrd is as good if not better than Dorsett. Moncrieff was showing promise. Harris is way better than Sony.

James White is going through some serious pain right now. People think you just bounce back from losing a parent but in most cases people see it coming as the parents age increases and their health declines. White was completely blindsided by his relatively young father dying and that is much harder to process.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Did Patrick Mahomes or Andy Reid make the Chiefs

No doubt Mahomes put Andy Reid over the top. Reid was doing a fine job with them with average QB play, but were never going to go anywhere without a top flight QB.

If they win the Super Bowl this season, Pats fans should fear they have a serious shot of 3 peating.

 

[203Pat]

Montana didn’t retire a Niner, Farve didn’t retire a Packer, Unitas didn’t retire a Colt, Manning didn’t retire a Colt, Namath didn’t retire a Jet. It happens. Brady was with us 20 years. That’s longer than any other great QB was with a team

For Montana, Favre, and Manning those teams all had a backup plan (I don't know about Unitas and Namath they were way before my time). Walsh knew he had Steve Young whom he traded for. The Packers knew they had Rodgers ready to go. The Colts were prepared to pull the biggest tank job in history to get Luck. Did any of those organizations know at the time that those players would be any good? No but at least they had someone in line to take over. Biggest blunder of Bill's career will be letting Brady walk with no heir apparent. It is absolutely mind boggling to me that Bill thought he could go into a season with Stidham and Hoyer and then even with a broken down Cam Newton. He has no plan at all. This was another of Bill's "I am smarter than everyone else" moves. I don't know what else it could be aside from flat out arrogance.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Sports will always be a "what have you done for me lately" business. I think it is unfair (ungrateful) too but that is the nature of the beast.

I totally get the criticism with regard to the draft, FA signings/misses and even letting Tom walk. I don't necessarily agree with some of the individual points but whatever....

But the calls for BB's head and removal as GM and/or HC is pure bat-**** crazy.

Give the man a chance to rebuild. Hes the most qualified coach/executive in the NFL at rebuilding/flipping a roster and managing a salary cap.

 

[Triumph]

James White is going through some serious pain right now. People think you just bounce back from losing a parent but in most cases people see it coming as the parents age increases and their health declines. White was completely blindsided by his relatively young father dying and that is much harder to process.

How do you know this?

 

[Kdo5]

James White is going through some serious pain right now. People think you just bounce back from losing a parent but in most cases people see it coming as the parents age increases and their health declines. White was completely blindsided by his relatively young father dying and that is much harder to process.

In terms of football I hope James White gets out of this mess in NE, signs with Tampa Bay & Brady. He does not deserve this garbage team where the QB can't throw dump offs to him. His relatively low production this year has to do with the QB, not him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

In terms of football I hope James White gets out of this mess in NE, signs with Tampa Bay & Brady. He does not deserve this garbage team where the QB can't throw dump offs to him. His relatively low production this year has to do with the QB, not him.

What if the team lands a promising QB for 2021. Do you still want White to leave?

 

[Kdo5]

What if the team lands a promising QB for 2021. Do you still want White to leave?

Of course not. I am just doubtful of us landing a promising QB. If Bill plans to use that first rounder for one of the top prospects I want White back. But I'll believe it when I see it. I also wanted Bill to draft Lamar & Jalen Hurts. Take a shot in the draft and see what happens.

 

[crawhammer]

Yeah, I don't get it. All of the sudden it is all Brady and Belichick is the same coach who coached the Browns. Brady is doing well, but he has a ****load of talent around him which he wouldn't have here. And I would argue that if Belichick was coaching the Bucs right now, they would be something like 14-1 or 13-2 going into the last week and the odds on favorite to get to the Super Bowl.

Let's face it. If the Pats kept Brady, they weren't coming close to winning the Super Bowl this year. They MIGHT have made the playoffs, but they would have had one and done written all over them. That is why I am not upset about the Pats letting him walk. I figured this is probably the best year to blow it up because of COVID. Who knows if Brady hits the wall completely after this season or not. Favre went from MVP candidate to crap in one season.

If Belichick had been running the show in Tampa Bay, they wouldn't have the same talent because Belichick has proven he can't draft a decent wide receiver if his life depended on it. Evans, Godwin and Miller were all draft picks. Even Tyler Johnson and Justin Watson look decent. Belichick simply cannot evaluate the position; it's been one bum after another. Belichick also wouldn't sign off on taking shots down the field like Arians. The narrative around Brady for past few seasons was he could no longer throw the deep ball... this season he's one Long Pass Play (>25) behind league leader Mahomes (Brady has 36 completions >25 yards).

Also, how many has-been veteran wide receivers has Belichick brought into camp over the past decade? It's a lengthy list for sure and pretty much none of them have worked out. You have to go all the way back to 2007 as the only season Belichick did anything to surround Brady with a high-powered WR group. Even then, Moss at the time was considered a disgruntled, possibly declining receiver, and we got him on the cheap. Welker was unproven in Miami. Brady only had two seasons with Moss, and the second he was coming back from the torn ACL, even still Moss led the league in TD receptions both seasons (of course setting an NFL record in 2007). Welker had his best seasons with Brady, leading the league in receptions three times. Moss and Welker are the only two pro bowl receivers Brady has ever had and combined he had only seven seasons with them (Moss 2 and Welker 5). By contract Payton Manning had a combined 25 seasons with Wayne (14) and Harrison (11).

Belichick's treatment of Brady over the last few seasons was a travesty. He surrounded Brady with diminishing talent and limited returns which he would then use against Brady in terms of contractual incentives. By the start of the 2019 season, Brady knew it would be his last in New England and he knew the team wasn't good enough anymore (as a result of Belichick's poor roster construction). It's no coincidence the team goes in the toilet the very first season Brady leaves town; just as it's no coincidence that Belichick was 5-13 to start his career in NE without Brady and then 11-3 and winning his first Super Bowl with Brady.

And of course Brady became a better quarterback, with improved skills, as he became more experienced with seasons behind him. Generally that's how it works. He's always been clutch but he was no slouch otherwise earlier in his career. He led the league in TD passes in 2002 and yardage in 2005. He was a pro bowler in 2001, 2004 and 2005. Obviously he wasn't the GOAT after a handful of seasons; he had to build that resume over time. He earned the label after beating Seattle in SB 49; since then he's only piled on considerably. What he's doing now with a new team in Tampa Bay, at age 43, in the midst of all the COVID chaos, is remarkable. By contrast, Belichick has had an utterly dreadful season. He has no quarterback, an otherwise limited roster, has been outcoached repeatedly, even his precious special teams are getting embarrassed, and now the entire team quit on him under a national spotlight.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

If Belichick had been running the show in Tampa Bay, they wouldn't have the same talent because Belichick has proven he can't draft a decent wide receiver if his life depended on it. Evans, Godwin and Miller were all draft picks. Even Tyler Johnson and Justin Watson look decent. Belichick simply cannot evaluate the position; it's been one bum after another. Belichick also wouldn't sign off on taking shots down the field like Arians. The narrative around Brady for past few seasons was he could no longer throw the deep ball... this season he's one Long Pass Play (>25) behind league leader Mahomes (Brady has 36 completions >25 yards).

Also, how many has-been veteran wide receivers has Belichick brought into camp over the past decade? It's a lengthy list for sure and pretty much none of them have worked out. You have to go all the way back to 2007 as the only season Belichick did anything to surround Brady with a high-powered WR group. Even then, Moss at the time was considered a disgruntled, possibly declining receiver, and we got him on the cheap. Welker was unproven in Miami. Brady only had two seasons with Moss, and the second he was coming back from the torn ACL, even still Moss led the league in TD receptions both seasons (of course setting an NFL record in 2007). Welker had his best seasons with Brady, leading the league in receptions three times. Moss and Welker are the only two pro bowl receivers Brady has ever had and combined he had only seven seasons with them (Moss 2 and Welker 5). By contract Payton Manning had a combined 25 seasons with Wayne (14) and Harrison (11).

Belichick's treatment of Brady over the last few seasons was a travesty. He surrounded Brady with diminishing talent and limited returns which he would then use against Brady in terms of contractual incentives. By the start of the 2019 season, Brady knew it would be his last in New England and he knew the team wasn't good enough anymore (as a result of Belichick's poor roster construction). It's no coincidence the team goes in the toilet the very first season Brady leaves town; just as it's no coincidence that Belichick was 5-13 to start his career in NE without Brady and then 11-3 and winning his first Super Bowl with Brady.

And of course Brady became a better quarterback, with improved skills, as he became more experienced with seasons behind him. Generally that's how it works. He's always been clutch but he was no slouch otherwise earlier in his career. He led the league in TD passes in 2002 and yardage in 2005. He was a pro bowler in 2001, 2004 and 2005. Obviously he wasn't the GOAT after a handful of seasons; he had to build that resume over time. He earned the label after beating Seattle in SB 49; since then he's only piled on considerably. What he's doing now with a new team in Tampa Bay, at age 43, in the midst of all the COVID chaos, is remarkable. By contrast, Belichick has had an utterly dreadful season. He has no quarterback, an otherwise limited roster, has been outcoached repeatedly, even his precious special teams are getting embarrassed, and now the entire team quit on him under a national spotlight.

Belichick is an NFL mastermind because he understands cap economics and a player’s financial value as well as anyone; he understands how to build a roster and often builds based on a supply:demand curve.

Example: in the 2000s, few teams ran a 3-4. The Patriots were able to get premium players like Seymour, Warren, Wilfork, Washington, Vrabel, and Bruschi, all of whom fit the scheme perfectly and were undervalued by the market. When other teams copied the Patriots, they moved away from that system into more of a 4-3 because finding undervalued 3-4 guys became too difficult.

Other areas where Belichick‘s philosophy has worked well: red zone value. We’ve heard for years about how the Patriots employed a “bend, don’t break“ defense. That was by design. Each team has a finite amount of resources and an advantage is hard to find. How to allocate the money? While other teams have spent huge on edge rushers and high sack guys, Belichick has spent big on guys that will brick wall the goal line like Seymour, Wilfork, Mayo, Hightower, etc. Sure, to offset the spending, it may be some soft zone defenses, but the philosophy worked. In addition, supply and demand says that guys like Law, Revis, Gilmore, and McCourty and extremely rare and therefore more valuable whereas there are tons of 12 sack guys. Belichick has gone all-in on this line of thinking and has been right. That’s why the team has often been a league leader in points allowed but not yards allowed. A great free safety, an elite man to man CB, elite run stuffing linemen and linebackers are how you stop a team from scoring touchdowns.

But that’s when we turn to offense and things get much more murky. The Patriots led the league in points scored from 2001-19, so Bill understands the value. The catch is that while he has maximized it, he doesn’t necessarily deserve credit for it because it is dependent on an outlier in Brady.

Teams like the 2000s Colts and 2010s Packers have typically build from within but still broken the bank for their homegrown skill players. QB/WR1/WR2 typically cost around $50-60M. Manning-Harrison-Wayne; Rodgers-Nelson-Adams. Most teams with elite QBs build in a similar way. The Patriots have typically paid at most $10M (Gronk) for any skill player and half that for a WR like Welker, Edelman, etc. They pay their offensive linemen (so do those other teams.) Obviously we know that Brady is the straw that stirs the drink for the offense. The Patriots have found some good value in cheap WRs, but their system and budget became comical a while ago, and the E-P offensive system seems unnecessary with the modern rulebook. Because of Brady’s greatness, it’s often overlooked that the highest paid WR of the era was Moss ($9M) in 2008-09 and only two draft picks really stuck (Branch, Edelman). With Edelman, the Patriots didn’t even realize what they had until 2013, after they re-signed him really cheap as a punt returner and backup.

So much of the offense’s credit is Brady, which has been obvious but for an outlier 2008 when an all-time great offense looked like a good/very good offense with Cassel. People choose to cite an outlier squad as proof that there’s a “system,” which is laughable and idiotic. Every coach - McDaniels, O’Brien, Weis - have failed spectacularly elsewhere. Belichick has been like most coaches with QB prospects over the years; mostly misses with some hits. He certainly is not magical. Brady‘s drive, leadership, skills and talents are his own and not some puppet master thing.

Belichick does deserve a lot of credit for the team’s success, but without Brady the closest comparison would be the Baltimore Ravens, who also understand cap economics, player value, draft pick value, extremely well. They’ve been a good to great team most years, but they haven’t been the Patriots because of the quarterback position.

Belichick deserves praise, but he isn’t the Jordan of the dynasty. Brady is the Jordan. Belichick is not the Pippen of the dynasty. Belichick is the Phil Jackson of the dynasty. How people can confuse the value of Brady and Belichick is baffling. Brady is the greatest player ever. Belichick did an overall wonderful job of building the team around Brady; of course, building teams around all-time great players is certainly much, much easier than building one without them.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Yeah, I don't get it. All of the sudden it is all Brady and Belichick is the same coach who coached the Browns. Brady is doing well, but he has a ****load of talent around him which he wouldn't have here. And I would argue that if Belichick was coaching the Bucs right now, they would be something like 14-1 or 13-2 going into the last week and the odds on favorite to get to the Super Bowl.

Let's face it. If the Pats kept Brady, they weren't coming close to winning the Super Bowl this year. They MIGHT have made the playoffs, but they would have had one and done written all over them. That is why I am not upset about the Pats letting him walk. I figured this is probably the best year to blow it up because of COVID. Who knows if Brady hits the wall completely after this season or not. Favre went from MVP candidate to crap in one season.

I agree that the 2020 results like W/L record don’t prove much in themselves. The Patriots were beginning their nosedive last year while the Bucs were clearly chosen by Brady for a reason. But that said, look beyond the win/loss record and stats, and two major things stand out:

1. Brady looks spectacular, especially in the last month as it seems he is more confident in a new offense. For 20 years, there has been some half-baked idea that Brady is great because of the Patriots system or massively enhanced by it. That seems to be total crap. Look at his command, ball placement, decision making, etc. Brady is and was always going to be an all-time great. Add Leftwich to the “genius” list along with McDaniels, Weis, and O’Brien (smirk.)

2. The idea that the Patriots always play opponents tough because of their superior preparation, effort, gameplans, and other Belichick advantages sure seems like a joke. Belichick’s teams got hammered often in Cleveland, in NE pre-Brady, in 2008 (four blowout losses), and now this year. The idea that they’re always competitive and never “quit” is myth. In addition, the idea there is some “higher floor” for quarterback play due to scheming is a really tough sell. It seems that the 2008 all-time great offense that scored 10ppg less than 2007 atill has people failing to grasp reality.

And Brady doesn't win at least the first three championships without Belichick. It isn't Brady's game plan to defend Marshall Faulk that is in the Hall of Fame. Brady didn't intercept Manning four times in the AFCCG in January of 2004 because he was mugging the Colts' receivers off the line.

They both needed each other especially in the early Super Bowls. I give Belichick more credit in the first two than Brady when we are talking the season as a whole to get to and win a Super Bowl.

Belichick was 36-44 in Cleveland before taking over in New England. In 2000, the Patriots went 5-11. In 2001, they started 0-2. Then just by sheer and absolute luck a massive turnaround happened and the 2001 team went 14-3 and won the Super Bowl, needing three dramatic clutch drives in the postseason. A coach who had missed the playoffs in 5 out of 6 seasons, had never built a real contender, and was, by all accounts in a rebuilding mode, just put it all together in week 3 of the 2001 season? Almost 100 games into his career, he just flips a switch at exactly that time?

Think you should reevaluate the 2001 and 2003 seasons, especially when looking at each player on the offense in hindsight. At the time, I thought the same thing you’re saying now; after years of perspective, it’s obvious that the the early-mid 2000s Patriots had a great defense and a garbage offense that was carried by the greatest QB of all-time and that likely no championships would have been won without TB12. They would have just been another unbalanced team with a strong defense and totally incompetent offense that would get shredded against elite teams. What appeared to be a quarterback who was “good but not great” was actually a quarterback who was elite in every way and made his teammates and coaches appear to be much greater than they actually were.

 

[sb1]

I think there’s two debates here. One is who is more responsible for the dynasty. The correct answer is Brady. The coach helps but he doesn’t play. If the QB sucks so will the results no matter what the coach does and we saw that this year.

The other debate seems to be is Bill even a good coach or does he have to have an all time QB to be good. If it’s the latter that would make Bill no better than someone like Jim Caldwell and he should never be in any conversation about who the GOAT head coach is in this league. I think that’s an overreaction, I don’t see any evidence to suggest he’s anything but an all time great coach. His Cleveland W-L record is meaningless to me. The knowledge of the game and it’s history and the way he can get the most out of his roster and insulate them from the noise.

Take Bill away from this roster and the results would be a catastrophe, no doubt about it.

 

[captain stone]

No doubt Mahomes put Andy Reid over the top. Reid was doing a fine job with them with average QB play, but were never going to go anywhere without a top flight QB.

If they win the Super Bowl this season, Pats fans should fear they have a serious shot of 3 peating.

That's why I'm solidly in the ABK (Anyone But Kermit) camp.

 

[skinnydog]

That’s true. But the original call was fumble and to reverse it there had to be conclusive evidence that the call was wrong. For the tuck rule to apply the QB has to be in the process of tucking the ball and not complete it. It’s not conclusive whether he had done that and by rule the call should have not been overturned. The video showed right before the ball came out Brady appeared to have two hands on the ball.

That’s what the Raiders objected to and they had a valid point. Brady himself basically admitted he did fumble. But that’s ok it made up for roughing the passer. That was a worse call.

Sorry, but it was absolutely the right call according to the rule. The so called tuck rule was that as long as the arm was going forward and the QB had not tucked the ball, it was an incomplete pass. It was blindingly clear that Brady had not "tucked" the ball away when it was knocked out. BB knew the rule because it had come up in a game earlier that year. The fact that the Raiders don't lke it thrills me to no end. That may have been a bad rule but it was correctly called. The 70s Pats lost to the Raiders because of an insanely bad roughing the passer call on Sugar Bear Hamilton!!!!! That was a bad call, the "Tuck" call was a good call based on a bad rule.

 

[skinnydog]

I think there’s two debates here. One is who is more responsible for the dynasty. The correct answer is Brady. The coach helps but he doesn’t play. If the QB sucks so will the results no matter what the coach does and we saw that this year.

The other debate seems to be is Bill even a good coach or does he have to have an all time QB to be good. If it’s the latter that would make Bill no better than someone like Jim Caldwell and he should never be in any conversation about who the GOAT head coach is in this league. I think that’s an overreaction, I don’t see any evidence to suggest he’s anything but an all time great coach. His Cleveland W-L record is meaningless to me. The knowledge of the game and it’s history and the way he can get the most out of his roster and insulate them from the noise.

Take Bill away from this roster and the results would be a catastrophe, no doubt about it.

The above is correct. Bill is a great coach, no question about it. But Brady was the secret sauce that made them SB winners. Bill made the pats a perennial playoff team and Brady put them over the top consistently. Bill simply doesn't win 6 SBs without Brady. Without Brady Bill is still a great coach, but I don't think anyone would be throwing around the word genius like they do with Bill now.

 

[skinnydog]

Brady never takes a snap in a pro game if not for Coach. 'nuff said.

Really doubtful. By all accounts, Brady started making an impression in his first season. The Pats held onto 4 QBs his first year because they did not want to cut him. He went into season 2 and moved up to #2 on the depth chart behind a QB the Pats had just signed to a 10 year 100 milllion dollar deal. If Bledsoe stays healthy he might have sat for a couple more years. On any team without a franchise QB already in place Brady probably becomes a starter in the same time frame.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think there’s two debates here. One is who is more responsible for the dynasty. The correct answer is Brady. The coach helps but he doesn’t play. If the QB sucks so will the results no matter what the coach does and we saw that this year.

The other debate seems to be is Bill even a good coach or does he have to have an all time QB to be good. If it’s the latter that would make Bill no better than someone like Jim Caldwell and he should never be in any conversation about who the GOAT head coach is in this league. I think that’s an overreaction, I don’t see any evidence to suggest he’s anything but an all time great coach. His Cleveland W-L record is meaningless to me. The knowledge of the game and it’s history and the way he can get the most out of his roster and insulate them from the noise.

Take Bill away from this roster and the results would be a catastrophe, no doubt about it.

Brady is more responsible for the dynasties. BB is the GOAT HC, but every HC needs a good quarterback to compete. GOAT HCs win multiple championships with all-time great QBs. Then you have guys like Shula who, while an all-time great, had one of the best QBs of all time and won nothing with him. Shula, therefore, should not be in the GOAT convo. I couldn’t care less about the undefeated season or the back to back titles in 72 and 73. He had Marino for 17 seasons, and won nothing. That people are trying to diminish BB as a HC is embarrassing. Now, diminishing him as a GM? ****in’ A. One has every right to do that.

 

[TheRainMaker]

He had Marino for 17 seasons, and won nothing.

Something didn't look right about that, so I looked it up. He Coached Marino from 1983-1995. But your point stands.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Here's a question for the board:

Did you think BB was a good Coach before Brady took over? I certainly didn't, but was excited for the hire in 2000 after he caught on fire with his game plans that derailed Drew Bledsoe and the hot 6-2 Pats on MNF and gave Peyton Manning fits twice. I was also excited he brought back Charlie Weiss as he was doing great things with very little in New York. It wasn't looking that way after the 5-13 start. I thought 2001 was fluke. They put up a good fight in 2002 despite their terrible D. I'd say I was convinced BB was the top Coach/Staff in the NFL during the 2003 season when teams couldn't run or pass on their D. It was pretty funny to watch how frustrated teams where getting.

When Bill gets talented players, he's virtually unstoppable. The problem has been in recent years though, finding those players.

 

[Tunescribe]

With Brady leading his new team into the postseason, his old team is floundering pathetically and will miss the postseason for only the second time in the past 18 seasons. The two seasons missing the postseason, 2008 and 2020, no Brady.

The main reason the Patriots will not make the postseason this year is the significant dropoff at the quarterback position. Like all of the greatest of all time, Brady makes everyone around him better, in fact much better, including Belichick.

Belichick without Brady:
8 Seasons
61-71 record
0 division titles
1 playoff win

Belichick with Brady:
18 seasons
219-63 record
17 division titles
12 Conference Championship appearances
9 Super Bowl appearances
6 Super Bowl titles

Belichick, often referred to as a genius, in reality is just another guy, an ordinary coach who looks great when coupled with a legendary talent. The numbers, the facts, bear it out. And it's not even close. More important to the Patriots dynasty? Brady by a wide margin.

This always has been a nonsensical media-contrived argument. It's not black-and-white as you've tried to characterize it and throwing BB's Cleveland years into the equation is a nonstarter. By and large BB put strong rosters around Brady (offense AND defense) during his New England tenure plus Tom received solid coaching from OCs Weis, McDaniels and O'Brien. This year, especially, is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The Pats' roster attrition was inevitable, exacerbated by a league-leading number of Covid opt-outs while Brady got tons of personnel support in Tampa. Had Brady stayed New England would've been very lucky to make the playoffs and would not have done well. Put BB and his staff in charge of the Bucs and they'd be poised for a solid postseason run. Under Arians they're not going far.