Oficial Post Game Thread- Pats beat the Cardinals

[Ring 6]

people getting into the playoff discussion is useless. Sure, we could squeak out some wins and have a chance for a wildcard in the best case scenario, but then what? Get embarrassed even worse than last year in the first round? The only reason I'm still hoping and rooting for a winning record is for BB's legacy. But, more post season losses won't help. This year is about who to keep for next year's rebuild. I'm actually excited about a few of our young guys getting good experience this year.

That was probably a common sentiment at thanksgiving 2001.
You play until they eliminate you. Anything can happen.
Why would you expect an embarrassing loss from a team that went toe to toe with KC with a QB who didn’t have a practice rep, to the wire with Seattle, in position to win before a stupid fumble vs buffalo, beat Miami, LV and Az, Baltimore all in or contending for playoff spots?
If they did run the table you would have a team that went 10-6 despite 4 consecutive losses when they had to shut down and not practice due to COVID, and would be 7-3 against teams with winning records. That’s one of the best resumes for a wild card team I’ve seen.
not are you saying teams competing for a wild card are all trash and should give up?

 

[jdlboot14]

Belichick has been looking for a the kind of player Dugger could become for 20 years. If he grows into it there is a critical role for him. Hightower may be the most versatile defender belichick has had here and Dugger was drafted to grow into the Hightower of the secondary.

I really like the energy Dugger has brought lately. He's going to be a cornerstone. And, it seems Bentley and Wino have started to figure it out a bit more in the last couple games. They just have to know when/how to use Bentley - he is too slow and not instinctive enough to play like HT (or Mayo, Bruschi before him)

 

[IllegalContact]

People keep talking about culture but there is absolutely no evidence this matters.

Packers had a winning culture.... until Starr retired.

Steelers had a winning culture..., until Bradshaw and Noll left. Then they were mediocre with a few good seasons until Ben came along.

Niner’s had an amazing culture until Young left. Then they became mediocre until Smith got there and gave them some shots.

Shula had a great culture in Miami. What have the Dolphins done since Marino left.

Now the Patriots, had an amazing culture for 20 years. Best in the NFL. On the verge of their first losing season right after Brady left.

There is zero evidence that culture matters to the degree people are saying, that it can sustain losing a high end player at the top position OR that tanking one year would destroy it and it can’t be immediately fixed with a new top talent (we literally saw Indy do this)

I firmly believe 4-5 weeks ago was the time to pull the plug on this and just get a QB the year the whole world was ready to give a mulligan to Belichick and the team. Next year if we don’t have a QB people won’t be as forgiving. It is a desperate need right now and it’s really going to determine a lot of outcomes the next few years

this is a very one sided perspective........every team and every situation is different. Shula won nothing with Marino.......but he did win with Earl Morral/Brian Griese...... you don't 'pull the plug'.......you play to win or you lose the entire roster......even when they sucked, the pats went down swining on their way to 1-15 or 2-14.........you're hedging way too much on the placement of your 1st and 2nd round draft picks

 

[luuked]

people getting into the playoff discussion is useless. Sure, we could squeak out some wins and have a chance for a wildcard in the best case scenario, but then what? Get embarrassed even worse than last year in the first round? The only reason I'm still hoping and rooting for a winning record is for BB's legacy. But, more post season losses won't help. This year is about who to keep for next year's rebuild. I'm actually excited about a few of our young guys getting good experience this year.

When you think that missing the playoffs is more impressive than making them.

 

[sb1]

people getting into the playoff discussion is useless. Sure, we could squeak out some wins and have a chance for a wildcard in the best case scenario, but then what? Get embarrassed even worse than last year in the first round? The only reason I'm still hoping and rooting for a winning record is for BB's legacy. But, more post season losses won't help. This year is about who to keep for next year's rebuild. I'm actually excited about a few of our young guys getting good experience this year.

I don't know.. I thought the offensive ineptitude in the Titans game last year was pretty embarrassing itself, it would be hard to top that.

And on the flip side - what about our young guys getting postseason experience? That's not a bad thing either. Playoffs are a longshot at best but nothing wrong with hoping.

 

[jdlboot14]

That was probably a common sentiment at thanksgiving 2001.
You play until they eliminate you. Anything can happen.
Why would you expect an embarrassing loss from a team that went toe to toe with KC with a QB who didn’t have a practice rep, to the wire with Seattle, in position to win before a stupid fumble vs buffalo, beat Miami, LV and Az, Baltimore all in or contending for playoff spots?
If they did run the table you would have a team that went 10-6 despite 4 consecutive losses when they had to shut down and not practice due to COVID, and would be 7-3 against teams with winning records. That’s one of the best resumes for a wild card team I’ve seen.
not are you saying teams competing for a wild card are all trash and should give up?

I'm saying this team (mostly Cam) doesn't have the offensive dynamics to win in the playoffs. Cam's biggest weakness is a lack of the killer instinct. Like Cougar in Top Gun, he's holding on too tight and has lost the edge. He berates himself mentally with any mistake, and it compounds to playing tight and nervous of letting people down. If he had the right mindset, he could play loose, then all bets are off... especially if Edelman comes back healthy for the stretch.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I used to think Pereira was a mouthpiece for the NFL, always agreeing with blown calls. Now I see he's just an idiot:

gotta be kidding me. Of all the crap that az benefitted from they chose the ONE borderline call in our favor to disagree with, which clearly showed helmet to helmet contact?? No wonder people always have this pats get all the calls mindset. Blatant inconsistency

 

[IllegalContact]

I don't know.. the offensive ineptitude in the Titans game last year was kinda embarrassing itself. Couldn't be much worse.

And on the flip side - what about our young guys getting postseason experience? That's not a bad thing either. Playoffs are a longshot at best but but nothing wrong with hoping.

you play to win.....it's the only way to see what you have on the roster

in 2000, the Pats were better in the 2nd half of the season than they were in the 1st.......and they sucked......if they decided to tank it, I don't believe they would have won the next year.........you always try to get better or you become nothing more than a loser waiting for a savior

 

[IllegalContact]

gotta be kidding me. Of all the crap that az benefitted from they chose the ONE borderline call in our favor to disagree with, which clearly showed helmet to helmet contact?? No wonder people always have this pats get all the calls mindset. Blatant inconsistency

the refs have either decided to or been told to move the line of what's a penalty or not based on what's not necessary......both flags in question yesterday were deemed as the unnecessary roughness.........neither had the intent to change the play......you can't like one call and dislike the other unless you are a homer

 

[oceansizer]

I like players like Dugger or Uche where their biggest advantage is athleticism and determination. Our concern was tackling ability and both of these players can tackle definitely.
What I miss most is another physical DT who can play along with Guy and DE rushing the passer. Winovich to me is a typical OLB,has speed and motor but sometimes cannot use his body and strength against big OL. However players like Dugger, Uche or Winovich are the core of our future front seven.

 

[denverpatsfan]

I don't know.. I thought the offensive ineptitude in the Titans game last year was pretty embarrassing itself, it would be hard to top that.

And on the flip side - what about our young guys getting postseason experience? That's not a bad thing either. Playoffs are a longshot at best but nothing wrong with hoping.

Last seasons playoff game was awful. Probably not as bad as the Ravens beatdown though. Both at home with Brady. Come to think of it the Jets loss had to be the worst since I traveled and attended that one.

From a veteran's fan perspective I see no upside in making the playoffs just to lose. Setting aside time that could be spent doing something productive just to be disappointed is not something I want to see. I can't attend the game either this season. So it's even less attractive.

But I never thought about the young players getting experience. You could argue that is a good thing, but how worthwhile is that experience in an empty stadium?

 

[lancerman]

Championships are the only thing that count around here these days, so it's a matter of finding out what a SB winning QB looks like. I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but 11 of the last 21 SB winning QBs were drafted outside of the 1st round (or in a supplemental draft). 8 of them were from the 3rd round or lower (and 4 from the 6th round or lower). Only 4 of them were the top pick (not including supplemental Young) and 7 (including Dilfer) were from the top 10.

It’s worth noting that 6 of those 11 were the same guy who was an extreme outlier they thus far has occurred exactly one time in the SB era.

Let’s go through it

2001: Brady the outlier

2002: Brad Johnson 9th round pick who got carried. Never player more than 50 games for a single team.

2003. Brady the outlier

2004: Brady the outlier

2005: Ben 11th overall

2006: Peyton Manning 1st overall

2007: Eli Manning 1st overall

2008: Ben 11th overall

2009: Brees 32nd overall

2010: Rodgers 24th overall

2011: Eli Manning 1st overall

2012: Flacco 18th overall

—— I hope you realize that right here guys picked in the first 32 spots won 8 consecutive SB’s

2013: 75th overall

2014: Brady the outlier

2015: Peyton Manning 1st overall

2016: Brady the outlier

2017: Foles 88th overall *ill get to this later.

2018: Brady the outlier

2019: Mahomes 10th overall.

Since Brady got here, 1st round picks (most of them high) account for 10 of the 19 SB’s. Of the 9 remaining Brady accounts for 6, Foles who got granted a first seed basically road Wentz who was a 2nd overall to the playoffs so you have to give Wentz some credit for even giving them the position to do it, that leaves Johnsob and Wilson.

Then for multiple SB wins since the 2000’s it’s

Brady: outlier at pick 199

Ben: pick 11

Peyton: pick 1

Eli: pick 1

so 3 of the 4 multi SB winners were high first round.

The reason I keep bringing up Brady is an outlier is because no QB in the SB era had even a 10th of the success being drafted that late. It’s like hoping for lighting to strike as a strategy. Meanwhile you have first overalls like Aikman, Elway, Bradshaw, and even Jim Plunkett who account for 11 SB’s. Add the 4 from the Manning’s and the 1st overall pick accounts for 15 of 54. Drop that to top 16 and you can add Namath (16), Dawson (17), Griese (18), McMahon (19), Simms (20), Dilfer (21.... he didn’t a first round game manager job), Ben (22, 23), Peyton and Eli (gets you to 27), Mahomes (28).

And now all of a sudden 28 of 54 SB winning QB were in the top 16 picks. That’s 51%. If it’s about winning SB’s....

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Depending on how the off-season goes, next year could be worse than this year because I think we will lose a lot of key players. I think Hightower will retire, Dmac will retire, Gilmore will not play here, we could lose thuney, White. It will be thought. The drafting will need to be on point.

 

[PScottman]

People keep talking about culture but there is absolutely no evidence this matters.

Packers had a winning culture.... until Starr retired.

Steelers had a winning culture..., until Bradshaw and Noll left. Then they were mediocre with a few good seasons until Ben came along.

Niner’s had an amazing culture until Young left. Then they became mediocre until Smith got there and gave them some shots.

Shula had a great culture in Miami. What have the Dolphins done since Marino left.

Now the Patriots, had an amazing culture for 20 years. Best in the NFL. On the verge of their first losing season right after Brady left.

There is zero evidence that culture matters to the degree people are saying, that it can sustain losing a high end player at the top position OR that tanking one year would destroy it and it can’t be immediately fixed with a new top talent (we literally saw Indy do this)

I firmly believe 4-5 weeks ago was the time to pull the plug on this and just get a QB the year the whole world was ready to give a mulligan to Belichick and the team. Next year if we don’t have a QB people won’t be as forgiving. It is a desperate need right now and it’s really going to determine a lot of outcomes the next few years

In all of your examples, none of those teams had an existing good team tank a season and furthermore, most (if not all) also lost their head coaches (the architects of said culture). Are you advocating not just for tanking but an entirely new coach and front office too?????

 

[lancerman]

In all of your examples, none of those teams had an existing good team tank a season and furthermore, most (if not all) also lost their head coaches (the architects of said culture). Are you advocating not just for tanking but an entirely new coach and front office too?????

Your missing the point. If culture mattered as much as you suggest, it seems to reason it could endure taking a hit at the QB position. It never does.

 

[Triumph]

Look at this pic... How there are about 3 stories on Yahoo! Sports right now about how the Cardinals got screwed is beyond me.

If someone looks at Mahomes wrong they throw a 15 yarder

 

[PScottman]

It’s worth noting that 6 of those 11 were the same guy who was an extreme outlier they thus far has occurred exactly one time in the SB era.

Let’s go through it

2001: Brady the outlier

2002: Brad Johnson 9th round pick who got carried. Never player more than 50 games for a single team.

2003. Brady the outlier

2004: Brady the outlier

2005: Ben 11th overall

2006: Peyton Manning 1st overall

2007: Eli Manning 1st overall

2008: Ben 11th overall

2009: Brees 32nd overall

2010: Rodgers 24th overall

2011: Eli Manning 1st overall

2012: Flacco 18th overall

—— I hope you realize that right here guys picked in the first 32 spots won 8 consecutive SB’s

2013: 75th overall

2014: Brady the outlier

2015: Peyton Manning 1st overall

2016: Brady the outlier

2017: Foles 88th overall *ill get to this later.

2018: Brady the outlier

2019: Mahomes 10th overall.

Since Brady got here, 1st round picks (most of them high) account for 10 of the 19 SB’s. Of the 9 remaining Brady accounts for 6, Foles who got granted a first seed basically road Wentz who was a 2nd overall to the playoffs so you have to give Wentz some credit for even giving them the position to do it, that leaves Johnsob and Wilson.

Then for multiple SB wins since the 2000’s it’s

Brady: outlier at pick 199

Ben: pick 11

Peyton: pick 1

Eli: pick 1

so 3 of the 4 multi SB winners were high first round.

The reason I keep bringing up Brady is an outlier is because no QB in the SB era had even a 10th of the success being drafted that late. It’s like hoping for lighting to strike as a strategy. Meanwhile you have first overalls like Aikman, Elway, Bradshaw, and even Jim Plunkett who account for 11 SB’s. Add the 4 from the Manning’s and the 1st overall pick accounts for 15 of 54. Drop that to top 16 and you can add Namath (16), Dawson (17), Griese (18), McMahon (19), Simms (20), Dilfer (21.... he didn’t a first round game manager job), Ben (22, 23), Peyton and Eli (gets you to 27), Mahomes (28).

And now all of a sudden 28 of 54 SB winning QB were in the top 16 picks. That’s 51%. If it’s about winning SB’s....

Do I get to exclude any stat that doesn't back up my argument too?

Who drafted Plunkett BTW? Must've been a tanking team - how'd that work out for them?

I think we just found your new board nickname. The outlier.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm saying this team (mostly Cam) doesn't have the offensive dynamics to win in the playoffs. Cam's biggest weakness is a lack of the killer instinct. Like Cougar in Top Gun, he's holding on too tight and has lost the edge. He berates himself mentally with any mistake, and it compounds to playing tight and nervous of letting people down. If he had the right mindset, he could play loose, then all bets are off... especially if Edelman comes back healthy for the stretch.

Ok so you are basing on your own distance psychoanalysis.
Teams win championships with players who are flawed, they win championships with weaknesses. They won championships by not asking those players to do too much.
Its certainly not a great possibility but with the running game this team has, that will improve when Michel is back out there, and with a defense that has been inconsistent, had players in and out of the lineup but has shown against some of the top offenses in the nfl that it can be dominant the team we put out there in January could easily be a big improvement over what we are putting out there in November. That’s why they play the games.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

the refs have either decided to or been told to move the line of what's a penalty or not based on what's not necessary......both flags in question yesterday were deemed as the unnecessary roughness.........neither had the intent to change the play......you can't like one call and dislike the other unless you are a homer

unnecessary roughness would be a bad call , yes. I had thought they flagged it for helmet to helmet which technically there was contact with the helmets so that play being flagged isnt a COMPLETE disaster. That said my issue was with people choosing to complain about and focus in that ONE call rather than the ones benefiting az. Thats more inconsistent than any ‘homer’ viewpoint you are claiming here.

 

[PScottman]

Your <sic> missing the point.

No, your implication is that the path to winning is solely reliant on drafting a QB in the top ten and a team should intentionally lose games to get there excludes every other variance possible in a complex system. Using examples of teams that didn't tank as reasons to tank makes zero sense because it's an apples to kumquats comparison itself.