The 4-7 Defense

[TomPatriot]

They sold out against the run

Somehow I think that’s a bit harder to do against TB.

 

[TomPatriot]

I'll bet anything you won't see it for a single down.

They played quarters in the red zone last year. I don think you’ll see it much either.

 

[TomPatriot]

I still can't figure out how Baltimore didn't run for over 200 yards.

A 250 pound fullback might have helped.

 

[BobDigital]

People worried about this seem to not understand exactly why the chargers did it vs the Ravens and why it worked. I promise you will not see it vs the Patriots unless it is 3rd and forever or clear Hail Mary time.

The reason it worked against the Ravens is because their entire offense only works if Jackson has the threat to run and cashes in on the threat. Take all your LBs off the field and put in DBs and suddenly he can't break contain and beat a LB to the edge. If he can't do that he needs to rely on his arm to beat you. He can't do it.

Now you may ask 'with so many DBs on the field why not just run through them?' The reason you can't is the man advantage the defense has near the line.

They didn't drop 7 DBs into coverage, they put 7 DBs in and had them play as LBs. In fact their CBs were fairly aggressive with the WRs. If Gus runs then you have 6 guys blocking on 7 defenders. If you have proper gap discipline and a talented DL (which the Chargers do) you can cut off those lanes and swarm tackle. Look at the tape again and you will see a lot of guys in the box waiting to see if it is a run or a pass. Once it is a run they go down hill with numbers. Once they see it's a pass they drop back but keep a spy on Jackson who actually has the speed to catch him and cut off his angle. It's true that playing up puts the DBs out of position and this leaves windows open to throw to. Another downside of this defense.

The way to counter this isn't to put more guys at the LOS and power through. It's to have a QB who is able to throw the ball accurately and force you to stop those DBs from cheating up. The weakness of this style is the WRs and TEs can get 1 on 1s or the D needs to give up bigger throwing lanes to recover; as the defense NEEDS to cheat up that extra DB to make up for the size difference they are giving up to get the extra speed.

If your QB can hit those throws or use their TE effectively (one who can box out and over power a DB) then you need to devote another DB to the back end. When that happens you suddenly have a power advantage with equal numbers in the box and the run game and Jackson's ability to run comes alive.

Jackson couldn't hit those WRs and so the Chargers could cheat up with that extra defender and didn't pay for going light on defense.

Try that D on Brady and he will eat up your secondary. Once you back off to defend Sony and White will run over that light defense.

 

[Soliel]

If they play that defense it’s going to be a long day for them

 

[A Defiant Goose]

I suspect that we'd need a better DL.

Not if it's 7 linebackers!

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The key to us winning is our o line. They have to keep Brady clean and not allow him to get happy feet.

 

[venecol]

The charger defense faced an incompetent offense and the Balt defense didn’t. LA allowed back to back 4th quarter TD drives of 75 and 80 yards and may have actually lost the game if they didn’t get the strip sack and almost surely would have lost the game if the other team had an nfl qb.
Chargers won but it’s very hard to argue they played better defense much less much better defense.

Very hard to argue they played better defense? Well that's just nonsense. Chargers D kept Ravens at 90 yards rushing (3.9 ypc), total of 229 yards (150 yards in the last 9 minutes of the game). Chargers had half a quarter of extra possession. They had 3 turnovers and 7 sacks. They were clearly playing prevent and running out the clock towards the end when up by 20 and had totally dominated the ravens.

This team also beat Steelers, Seahawks, and Chiefs all on the road with 2 come from behind wins in ****sburg and arrowhead.

Say whatever you want but Chargers have a good team and I can't wait to see the Pat's battle them in Foxborough. It's going to be fun.

 

[njpatsfan]

Very hard to argue they played better defense? Well that's just nonsense

You completely miss his point. Let me make it simple for you. Did the Chargers play *really* good defense, or was the Ravens offense just that incompetent ? What is more impressive, holding Rivers and the Chargers to 24 with all the extra possessions and good field position the Ravens O gave Rivers, or beating a ‘running’ rookie QB in his first playoff game ? And to have the difference in the score to be a made 51 and missed 48 set of FGs away from a tie game ?

And what kind of ‘prevent’ defense gives up two touchdowns in five minutes on multiple 30 yard pass plays to that QB that supposedly can’t pass ?

There are lots to things to learn from this game about how we can beat SC, but unfortunately they are not being discussed in this thread.

 

[Kontradiction]

You completely miss his point. Let me make it simple for you. Did the Chargers play *really* good defense, or was the Ravens offense just that incompetent ? What is more impressive, holding Rivers and the Chargers to 24 with all the extra possessions and good field position the Ravens O gave Rivers, or beating a ‘running’ rookie QB in his first playoff game ? And to have the difference in the score to be a made 51 and missed 48 set of FGs away from a tie game ?

And what kind of ‘prevent’ defense gives up two touchdowns in five minutes on multiple 30 yard pass plays to that QB that supposedly can’t pass ?

There are lots to things to learn from this game about how we can beat SC, but unfortunately they are not being discussed in this thread.

Prevent defenses are simplistic, garbage defenses that have their secondaries going into very soft shells (typically a Cover-4), zero blitzing, and in this case an emphasis on contain vs. giving a mobile QB an open gap to run through. That they allowed increased scoring should come as a surprise to nobody. That they switched to it as early as they did was the major mistake. They shouldn't have gone into a "prevent" until at least the defensive series after that. That's on Bradley.

 

[Ring 6]

Very hard to argue they played better defense? Well that's just nonsense. Chargers D kept Ravens at 90 yards rushing (3.9 ypc), total of 229 yards (150 yards in the last 9 minutes of the game). Chargers had half a quarter of extra possession. They had 3 turnovers and 7 sacks. They were clearly playing prevent and running out the clock towards the end when up by 20 and had totally dominated the ravens.

This team also beat Steelers, Seahawks, and Chiefs all on the road with 2 come from behind wins in ****sburg and arrowhead.

Say whatever you want but Chargers have a good team and I can't wait to see the Pat's battle them in Foxborough. It's going to be fun.

Other games and how good you feel the chargers are have nothing to do with the statement that they played better defense than Baltimore in that game.
Make whatever excuse you want, I don’t do excuses. They let an incompetent offense back in the game. Baltimores defense allowed more points but they were facing a real NFL offense and were burdened with field position nightmares due to turnovers.

 

[Kontradiction]

Other games and how good you feel the chargers are have nothing to do with the statement that they played better defense than Baltimore in that game.
Make whatever excuse you want, I don’t do excuses. They let an incompetent offense back in the game. Baltimores defense allowed more points but they were facing a real NFL offense and were burdened with field position nightmares due to turnovers.

Huh?
How do you offset a 97 yard ko return with one good play with regard to average per kick return?
Aside from 3 poor returns the kr average is 22. That’s not great but decent. So they have been decent aside from a couple of breakdowns. Doesn’t mean the breakdowns aren’t important, but it provides context.

IF you stifle an offense all day and win 40-7 and they ran 19 times for 35 yards before breaking off a garbage time 95 yard td run, you end allowing 6.5 yards per rush. To say he run defense sucked all day because of that stat is wrong. Context.

At one point late in the 3rd luck was 19-29 for 166. I know an stats get bastardized in garbage time, but look at that. 19 completions for only 166 yards is a clear indication that the defense was taking away intermediate and deep routes and making him dump off so they could tackle the short man. 8.7 yards per COMPLETION is a defense clamping down on a passing game.

The next post is very hilarious, but it won't let me direct quote it because the thread is closed. So I'll post the link and the quote...

Official Game Day Thread - Week 10...Pats @ Broncos

Wtf are you talking about?
Obviously points matter and yards are meaningless and of course garbage time is meaningless.

Like I said before, your opinion changes like the wind when it comes to the Patriots. You should try to be more consistent. People may take you more seriously.

 

[TomPatriot]

Prevent defenses are simplistic, garbage defenses that have their secondaries going into very soft shells (typically a Cover-4), zero blitzing, and in this case an emphasis on contain vs. giving a mobile QB an open gap to run through. That they allowed increased scoring should come as a surprise to nobody. That they switched to it as early as they did was the major mistake. They shouldn't have gone into a "prevent" until at least the defensive series after that. That's on Bradley.

They executed quarters pretty badly, allowing big plays.

 

[maineman209]

You completely miss his point. Let me make it simple for you. Did the Chargers play *really* good defense, or was the Ravens offense just that incompetent ? What is more impressive, holding Rivers and the Chargers to 24 with all the extra possessions and good field position the Ravens O gave Rivers, or beating a ‘running’ rookie QB in his first playoff game ? And to have the difference in the score to be a made 51 and missed 48 set of FGs away from a tie game ?

And what kind of ‘prevent’ defense gives up two touchdowns in five minutes on multiple 30 yard pass plays to that QB that supposedly can’t pass ?

There are lots to things to learn from this game about how we can beat SC, but unfortunately they are not being discussed in this thread.

I don't think it's either/or wrt Chargers defense v. Ravens offense.

The Ravens' "Jacksonian Offense" had presented some unique challenges that seven NFL defenses had struggled with. Aided by the Ravens' defense keeping opposing scoring down, this Jacksonian Offense was enough to win 6 of those 7 games and take the Chiefs into OT.

The Chargers came up with a fairly novel defensive adjustment and played very aggressively through the first three quarters. The Ravens seemed to respond by having Jackson in straight dropback mode (rather than RPO) which rendered their offense ineffective.

It should be noted that it was very windy/gusty through most of the first three quarters, which helped both pass defenses. But that winds diminished after that.

In Q4, the Chargers defense took their foot off the gas (not sure why), and the Ravens' offense started playing a lot more RPO out of 3TE sets. In combination with the diminished winds, the Ravens offense was able to mount a comeback that fell short.

 

[venecol]

Other games and how good you feel the chargers are have nothing to do with the statement that they played better defense than Baltimore in that game.
Make whatever excuse you want, I don’t do excuses. They let an incompetent offense back in the game. Baltimores defense allowed more points but they were facing a real NFL offense and were burdened with field position nightmares due to turnovers.

I provided actual stats, you're just stating your opinion. I don't have to make excuses. Chargers totally dominated Ravens through 85% of the match. They stalled them until they ran out of time (actually got another TO to end it but they wouldn't have scored anyway). They were probably trying to avoid unnecessary injuries at the end. This is a classic example of a game where the score doesn't reflect the ass whipping the Ravens received.

You're delusional if you don't concede that holding them at 79 yards and 3 pts for 85% of the game is not impressive. Yea, yea 60 minute bull crap. Pat's do this all the time (allow scores after game is over).

I know you don't ever concede any argument even when you are dead wrong so don't bother to respond, I get it, your super ego doesn't allow Andy to be wrong or little Andy would be reminded of those bad days.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Wasn't part of it due to necessity with all their injuries to LB over the last few months, Perryman, White etc.......???

 

[Ring 6]

I provided actual stats, you're just stating your opinion.

Misusing stats doesn’t an accurate opinion.

I don't have to make excuses. Chargers totally dominated Ravens through 85% of the match. They stalled them until they ran out of time (actually got another TO to end it but they wouldn't have scored anyway). They were probably trying to avoid unnecessary injuries at the end. This is a classic example of a game where the score doesn't reflect the ass whipping the Ravens received.

A game is 100% of the fans not 85%.
Wait. Are you trying to tell me the chargers allowed back to back td drives of 75 and 80 yards to bring the game to a 6 point game with 2 minutes left (and got the ball back with a chance to win) because the chargers stopped trying because they didn’t want to get injured?
Are you on drugs? I mean honestly are you?

[quote{You're delusional if you don't concede that holding them at 79 yards and 3 pts for 85% of the game is not impressive. Yea, yea 60 minute bull crap. Pat's do this all the time (allow scores after game is over).[/quote]
I’m taking about an ENTIRE game. They held an incompetent offense to 17 points. I actually gave no gripe about the LA defense.
I’m saying the Baltimore defense allowing 23 against the LA offense despite the hoescthey were out in was a better job than allowing 17 including 2 long TD drives in clutch situations to a jr High offense.

[quite]I know you don't ever concede any argument even when you are dead wrong so don't bother to respond, I get it, your super ego doesn't allow Andy to be wrong or little Andy would be reminded of those bad days. [/QUOTE]
If I were wrong I would readily say so. By the way, opinions are not wrong. A was better than B is not a discussion that someone concedes unless they are uninformed. I watch every play of the same.
In my view 17 to Lamar Jackson with a weak supporting cast is simply not better defense than 23 to rivers, Gordon, Allen, et al.
In my view only a fool would argue it is.

You seem intent on convincing me that stopping am incompetent offense for 3 quarters is good and it excuses letting them walk all over you in the 4th quarter.

LAMAR JACKSON tore through the LA defense for 2 TDs on drives that totaled 20 plays 155 yards and only took a hair more than 5 minutes off the clock. That’s embarrassing.

 

[venecol]

Misusing stats doesn’t an accurate opinion

A game is 100% of the fans not 85%.
Wait. Are you trying to tell me the chargers allowed back to back td drives of 75 and 80 yards to bring the game to a 6 point game with 2 minutes left (and got the ball back with a chance to win) because the chargers stopped trying because they didn’t want to get injured?
Are you on drugs? I mean honestly are you?

[quote{You're delusional if you don't concede that holding them at 79 yards and 3 pts for 85% of the game is not impressive. Yea, yea 60 minute bull crap. Pat's do this all the time (allow scores after game is over).

I’m taking about an ENTIRE game. They held an incompetent offense to 17 points. I actually gave no gripe about the LA defense.
I’m saying the Baltimore defense allowing 23 against the LA offense despite the hoescthey were out in was a better job than allowing 17 including 2 long TD drives in clutch situations to a jr High offense.

If I were wrong I would readily say so. By the way, opinions are not wrong. A was better than B is not a discussion that someone concedes unless they are uninformed. I watch every play of the same.
In my view 17 to Lamar Jackson with a weak supporting cast is simply not better defense than 23 to rivers, Gordon, Allen, et al.
In my view only a fool would argue it is.

You seem intent on convincing me that stopping am incompetent offense for 3 quarters is good and it excuses letting them walk all over you in the 4th quarter.

LAMAR JACKSON tore through the LA defense for 2 TDs on drives that totaled 20 plays 155 yards and only took a hair more than 5 minutes off the clock. That’s embarrassing.[/QUOTE]
________________________________________________

You just don't care about facts once you've formed an opinion. Here are some more facts:

Ravens avg pts/gm allowed: 17.9
They allowed 23 against Chargers.

Ravens avg pts/gm scored: 24.3
They only scored 17 against Chargers

Chargers avg pts/gm allowed: 20.6
They only allowed 17 to the Ravens

Chargers avg pts/gm scored: 26.7
They scored 23 against Ravens

Summarizing (regular season to WC game):
Ravens allowed +5.1 pts
Ravens scored -7.3 pts
Chargers allowed -3.6 pts
Chargers scored -3.7 pts

So the Chargers kept Ravens to 7.3 pts below their scoring average and also kept the scoring 3.6 below their own scoring allowed.

The Ravens kept Charges only 3.7 pts below their scoring average but actually allowed 5.1 pts above their own scoring allowed.

Now going back to the beginning your statement was its "Very hard to argue the Chargers played better defense?

By every metric (not your wild hot takes) the Chargers did play better defense!

 

[Ring 6]

I’m taking about an ENTIRE game. They held an incompetent offense to 17 points. I actually gave no gripe about the LA defense.
I’m saying the Baltimore defense allowing 23 against the LA offense despite the hoescthey were out in was a better job than allowing 17 including 2 long TD drives in clutch situations to a jr High offense.

If I were wrong I would readily say so. By the way, opinions are not wrong. A was better than B is not a discussion that someone concedes unless they are uninformed. I watch every play of the same.
In my view 17 to Lamar Jackson with a weak supporting cast is simply not better defense than 23 to rivers, Gordon, Allen, et al.
In my view only a fool would argue it is.

You seem intent on convincing me that stopping am incompetent offense for 3 quarters is good and it excuses letting them walk all over you in the 4th quarter.

LAMAR JACKSON tore through the LA defense for 2 TDs on drives that totaled 20 plays 155 yards and only took a hair more than 5 minutes off the clock. That’s embarrassing.

________________________________________________

You just don't care about facts once you've formed an opinion. Here are some more facts:

Ravens avg pts/gm allowed: 17.9
They allowed 23 against Chargers.

Ravens avg pts/gm scored: 24.3
They only scored 17 against Chargers

Chargers avg pts/gm allowed: 20.6
They only allowed 17 to the Ravens

Chargers avg pts/gm scored: 26.7
They scored 23 against Ravens

Summarizing (regular season to WC game):
Ravens allowed +5.1 pts
Ravens scored -7.3 pts
Chargers allowed -3.6 pts
Chargers scored -3.7 pts

So the Chargers kept Ravens to 7.3 pts below their scoring average and also kept the scoring 3.6 below their own scoring allowed.

The Ravens kept Charges only 3.7 pts below their scoring average but actually allowed 5.1 pts above their own scoring allowed.

Now going back to the beginning your statement was its "Very hard to argue the Chargers played better defense?

By every metric (not your wild hot takes) the Chargers did play better defense![/QUOTE]
You really should try watching football games.

 

[njpatsfan]

Other, more knowledgeable sites with more thoughtful posters have pointed out the fact that the Ravens were just a few plays away winning a game having been down 24-3 with nine minutes left in the 4Q; a defensive collapse that would have made 28-3 look good in comparison. And no one talks about how ‘impressive’ the ATL D was in that game.

The fact that the Chargers 4-7 was effective against the run in Q1-3 and was destroyed against the pass in the 4Q - when they knew the Ravens were passing - is a remarkable and interesting fact if you are a student of the game. More so for us because it gives an insight to our next opponent. It deserves a more thoughtful treatment on a board that on paper at least prides itself on being more cerebral than the rest.

Thanks to those who have tried to stay on topic - I think many here are interested in hearing what you have to say.