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I'm just asking why you feel it's "wrong" or why it's your problem that you feel that way about transsexuals. If you're not disrespectful and shove your opinions down their throat, why is it a problem that you have that opinion, especially if you keep that opinion to yourself?

Because he recognizes that his opinion has nothing to do with how the transsexual perceives reality. That is, he knows that his opinion was generated by him, himself, and not the transexual.

That's elevated consciousness.

It's also something a bigot would have difficulty relating to because a bigot does not think it possible for another person to perceive reality in a different way than he does. He is intolerant of anything not supportive of his own perception of reality.
 
Because subconsciously primetime knows these transexual individuals have some serious mental problems. And I do not mean that in a disrespectful way. These people need serious help to be the gender they were born to be. But they won't get help because it's not politically correct to help them be what they were born physically. It's pc to tell them be whoever you feel like being on the inside. Developmentally some serious problems happened to these people and it's sad.

Are transsexuals considered gays who take it a step further?

Do the PC Police consider transsexuals natural?
 
Because he recognizes that his opinion has nothing to do with how the transsexual perceives reality. That is, he knows that his opinion was generated by him, himself, and not the transexual.

That's elevated consciousness.

It's also something a bigot would have difficulty relating to because a bigot does not think it possible for another person to perceive reality in a different way than he does. He is intolerant of anything not supportive of his own perception of reality.

Again, if he doesn't shove his opinion down people's throat, like you're trying to shove your opinion down other people's throat, what's the big deal?
 
Again, if he doesn't shove his opinion down people's throat, like you're trying to shove your opinion down other people's throat, what's the big deal?

Because what you're describing is impossible - you can't have fearful or hateful thoughts and feelings for something or someone without having those thoughts manifest even in some small way externally.
 
Are transsexuals considered gays who take it a step further?

Do the PC Police consider transsexuals natural?
Probably yes to both questions. Unless a guy and girl switch roles and partner up. But that would be gay also for a guy to pretend he's having sex with guy, even though she's physically a girl.
 
Because what you're describing is impossible - you can't have fearful or hateful thoughts and feelings for something or someone without having those thoughts manifest even in some small way externally.

Were you fearful or hateful towards transsexuals?
 
Because subconsciously primetime knows these transexual individuals have some serious mental problems. And I do not mean that in a disrespectful way. These people need serious help to be the gender they were born to be. But they won't get help because it's not politically correct to help them be what they were born physically. It's pc to tell them be whoever you feel like being on the inside. Developmentally some serious problems happened to these people and it's sad.

I think that is way, way to complex an issue to paint with any one brush.
 
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I'm just asking why you feel it's "wrong" or why it's your problem that you feel that way about transsexuals. If you're not disrespectful and shove your opinions down their throat, why is it a problem that you have that opinion, especially if you keep that opinion to yourself?

I'm sure primetime can speak for himself, but I take it to be because he feels it is wrong to judge them. He feels it is wrong to think that his version of what they should be means more than than their own.
I'm not sure why you struggle with this concept. People have a right to live their own life, and to think that they should live it based on my standards, feelings, morals and sensitivities is silly, unless they are harming someone else.
 
AJ put it much more succinctly than I could have done.

condon84 - Discomfort is a manifestation of fearful feelings and thoughts. But it really just is a fear of the unknown, a fear that I and everyone else has overcome many times in our lives, and there's no reason I nor anyone else should judge someone based on a piece of their identity, be it gender, sex, sexuality, race, ethnicity, "lifestyle" (whatever this means), nor anything else.
 
Because subconsciously primetime knows these transexual individuals have some serious mental problems. And I do not mean that in a disrespectful way. These people need serious help to be the gender they were born to be. But they won't get help because it's not politically correct to help them be what they were born physically. It's pc to tell them be whoever you feel like being on the inside. Developmentally some serious problems happened to these people and it's sad.

I guess it depends on how you define 'problems'. Transsexuals are certainly unusual, but there's a ton of compelling evidence that it's biologically based, and not due to 'serious mental problems'. It really is a case of simply being born in the wrong gender's body:

Causes of transsexualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genetics
The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. Hare et al. found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repeat the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[18]

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.[19]

Brain structure
In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[20]

In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[21]

In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[22]

In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[23] **** Swaab (2004) concurs.[24]

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[25]

While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.

However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[26]

An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[27]

Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006), studied the gross brain volume of subjects undergoing hormone treatment. They discovered that whole brain volume for subjects changes toward the size of the opposite reproductive sex during hormone treatment. The conclusion of the study was, "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."[28]

Brain function
Phantom limb syndrome is a common, often painful experience after the loss of an external organ. Ramachandran (2008) found that while nearly two thirds of non-transsexual males who have a penis surgically removed experience the sensation of a phantom penis, only one third of MTF transsexuals do so after sex reassignment surgery. Perhaps more remarkably, two-thirds of FTM transsexuals reported the sensation of a phantom penis from childhood onwards, replete with phantom erections and other phenomena.[29]

Berglund et al. (2008) tested the response of gynephilic MTF transsexuals to two sex pheromones: the progestin-like 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like 1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). Despite the difference in sexuality, the MTFs' hypothalamic networks activated in response to AND, like the androphilic female control groups. Both groups experienced amygdala activation in response to EST. Male control groups (gynephilic) experienced hypothalamic activation in response to EST. However, the MTF subjects also experienced limited hypothalamic activation to EST as well. The researchers' conclusion was, that in terms of pheromone activation, MTF's occupy an intermediate position with predominantly female features.[30] The MTF transsexual subjects had not undergone any hormonal treatment at the time of the study, according to their own declaration beforehand, and confirmed by repeated tests of hormonal levels.[31]

So no, I don't think there's anything deeply wrong with them, and I don't think that deep psychological problems are at the root of transsexuality. They're not broken, they're just unusual.
 
Again, if he doesn't shove his opinion down people's throat, like you're trying to shove your opinion down other people's throat, what's the big deal?

I don't think anyone has ever said there is anything wrong with an opinion you keep to yourself.
But those who judge others and throw out words such as we have heard here (gross, psychologically impaired, immoral, a tragedy, etc) do not just keep that to themselves, they tend to act on those thoughts.
What do you think Pats16NO would do it a gay pride parade marched down his street?
 
Are transsexuals considered gays who take it a step further?

Do the PC Police consider transsexuals natural?

You seem to be very concerned whether something is "natural". Since transsexuals are humans, and are thus created by nature and are a part of nature, are they not natural?

Perhaps what you really mean to ask is "are they born that way"? Well, many transsexuals report being cognizant of gender identity problems from early childhood, so maybe the answer is "yes". If you ask me, the bigot is the more "Unnatural" phenomenon, since, in my experience, humans are born without prejudice. People don't become bigots until much later in life. So, if you are equating "unnatural" with "worthy of scorn", you may want to look at yourself.

Even if not, even if they are born as perfectly "natural" straight, non-crossdressing boys and girls, yet succumb over the course of a lifetime to those certain tranny demons that Boog appears to be alluding to, so what? If they are happier living as the opposite gender, what difference does it make? Who does it hurt, other than the bigot, who, for whatever reason, takes personal offense to perfectly legal behavior that has zero impact on him?
 
I'm sure primetime can speak for himself, but I take it to be because he feels it is wrong to judge them. He feels it is wrong to think that his version of what they should be means more than than their own.
I'm not sure why you struggle with this concept. People have a right to live their own life, and to think that they should live it based on my standards, feelings, morals and sensitivities is silly, unless they are harming someone else.

In regards to Primetime, he posted he was slightly uncomfortable to transsexuals, I don't see how he can equate that to hateful thoughts.

On your second point, I never disagreed with gays living how they want to live. It was just my opinion that same sex intercourse is unnatural. But it doesn't mean I think they should stop. They can do whatever they want.
 
Again, if he doesn't shove his opinion down people's throat, like you're trying to shove your opinion down other people's throat, what's the big deal?

Why do you keep trying to distort this?

The argument is basically that you can have any opinion you want to; you can think that homosexual acts are unnatural as much as you want to.

But if you tell a gay person that you think what they are doing is unnatural, that's wrong.

I've also pointed out that what is natural and unnatural is a matter of subjectivity anyway.
 
In regards to Primetime, he posted he was slightly uncomfortable to transsexuals, I don't see how he can equate that to hateful thoughts.

He isn't. Why do you keep seeing it that way?
 
So if I am anti-African American or AntiAsian, and speak those beliefs without hesitation then anyone who objects would be intolerant?
What if I was sexist and went around criticizing women?

I think you are mixing up the distinction between attacking what someone is, and not accepting someone acting in a hurtful manner toward someone just because of what they are.

If I walk down that street throwing racial epiteths at everyone I meet, and you walk behind me telling me I am wrong and should stop, do you really find those equal behaviors?

I will put it another way. Calling a gay person immoral is just as wrong as saying a black person isn't smart enough to get a real job.
You cannot tell me you would defend the person who spews the opinion that black people are stupid, should not be allowed in college, and should never get a job over the white person who is genetically more qualified.
Would you seriously be calling the person who speaks out against that person intolerant?

In film history, a lot of "firsts" came from a guy name DW Griffith. Was was also a man of his time. Birth of a Nation was his propaganda service to the Ku Klux Klan, and featured black men running around the post-Civil War South raping white women, among other horrors... until the Klan saved us all!

He also did a high-budget film called Intolerance, in part in response to the reception Birth of a Nation got.

His bigoted politics aside, Intolerance is considered a masterpiece.

So the moral of the story seems to be, you CAN call anybody who's against bigotry an anti-bigot bigot, but you have to bankroll a 3 1/2-hour epic movie to exonerate yourself...
 
I''m not sure what point you were making. Complexity of the means in which you are different would appear irrelevant to whether the mistreatment is acceptable.

Hell. Well, you being so enlightened I'm sure you've already dismissed this ridiculous conundrum. The reason some religious types see this as a moral issue is because the sex act (any sex act) has a huge complex psychological component to it. I could go into the phenomenon know as desensitization (this is shown in many areas of life including Hollywood types becoming bored with one woman and bedding as many as possible or drug addicts going after that next great drug), but, I'm sure you got it covered. Religious types view the sex act in a moral way (and even some as a moral test). It is undeniable that some heterosexual males will engage in anal sex in prison while others will not. Anal sex is an act not a skin color. Is it wrong for religious types to judge this (their word - deviant, I use type of) behavior by heterosexual inmates? You seem to have all the answers so I'll defer to you. I'm sure you'll enlighten us all.
 
Hell. Well, you being so enlightened I'm sure you've already dismissed this ridiculous conundrum. The reason some religious types see this as a moral issue is because the sex act (any sex act) has a huge complex psychological component to it. I could go into the phenomenon know as desensitization (this is shown in many areas of life including Hollywood types becoming bored with one woman and bedding as many as possible or drug addicts going after that next great drug), but, I'm sure you got it covered. Religious types view the sex act in a moral way (and even some as a moral test). It is undeniable that some heterosexual males will engage in anal sex in prison while others will not. Anal sex is an act not a skin color. Is it wrong for religious types to judge this (their word - deviant, I use type of) behavior by heterosexual inmates? You seem to have all the answers so I'll defer to you. I'm sure you'll enlighten us all.

I'm not really certain where you're going with this. Are you comparing consensual sex by adults to sexual assault in prison? You don't need to be religious to condemn sexual assault, but if you don't condemn sexual assault you're probably a sociopath.
 
I guess it depends on how you define 'problems'. Transsexuals are certainly unusual, but there's a ton of compelling evidence that it's biologically based, and not due to 'serious mental problems'. It really is a case of simply being born in the wrong gender's body:

Causes of transsexualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So no, I don't think there's anything deeply wrong with them, and I don't think that deep psychological problems are at the root of transsexuality. They're not broken, they're just unusual.

We'll agree to disagree. I believe the mental aspect actually effects the physical to a degree. Think you are a woman long enough, eventually you'll start walking ,sounding like a woman. And I believe it could eventually change body chemistry and structure and function of the nervous system.
Of these men that are transexuals, I'd like to know what their relationship was like with their Dad. Was dad around, was he neglectful or abusive? And what was their mom like also.
 
But you are the one who claims that verses regarding slaves should not apply to today.

By what authority do you make such claims?

Did you ask a preacher?

Do you see any slaves around?

Own any yourself?
 


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