Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[Huckleberry1]

Welcome to Obama's America!

You got that right, and I for one am pissed. Just think, another 6 months of Cheney and Bush and we could be living in our grandparents america, worldwide depression with full blown world war as the only way out. That would have been awesome, too bad they didn't get to finish the job

 

[BradyFTW!]

No, that's not the whole point. Dear God, what has become of this country? First, there is a right to free speech, but not a right to not be offended. Second, Martin himself wrote to his father that he wasn't letting his teammates know that he had a problem with this stuff.

You're demanding both a non-existent right and that people immediately develop mental telepathy.

It's weird that the people who are the quickest to invoke free speech are the ones who obviously have no idea what it it means.

Provided that the government doesn't come down on Incognito for what he said--spoiler alert: it won't--you can sleep soundly knowing that his first amendment rights have not been violated.

If I called my boss right now and told him to go **** himself, I would be fired on the spot. If I tried to invoke my first amendment rights to defend what I did, that would make me an incredibly stupid person.

 

[Ring 6]

What? Stop grasping for straws. I've asked you several times to provide any proof for the argument you are making, and instead you drilled down three pages ago to apparently find me misreading one of your many poorly written posts. My bad.

What are you talking about?

Proof of what? Proof that you have no proof?

You are saying it would never happen in Foxboro.
I am saying you have no way of knowing that.
My "proof" is that you have absolutely zero insight into how Patriot players act toward each other in private.
My 'proof' is that 6 months ago you could have made the same claim about Miami while it was happening, and if Martin did not walk out, you could still be making it today.

You have not made a point yet that I have not responded to and overcome.

 

[upstater1]

Let's see, yesterday I joked with a coworker about having sex with his dead mom. He laughed and then said something back about my wife that I can't remember because mine was better.

A few days earlier another one joked about banging my 19 year old daughter.

One time a coworker assaulted me with his flatulence.

What an awful, broken place the corporate world is. The media needs to hear my story and my suffering. Also I'm a huge bully and a super *******.

The problem with everyone's assessment of this is that we literally have no idea what the Dolphins locker room was like, what Incognito was like or what Martin was like.

If all you heard about me was that I'm working to adopt a child from a war-torn country you'd say what a swell dude I am. If all you heard about me is that I made a dark joke about banging someone's dead mom then you'd say I was a super *******. You have no idea of context and your sample size is exceedingly narrow.

But everyone's in a super hurry to be outraged and this story no different. The Knee-Jerk Outrage generation is in full effect.

Does the guy who said that to you have a prior record of beating people up, threatening them, sexually assaulting women, etc.?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Let's see, yesterday I joked with a coworker about having sex with his dead mom. He laughed and then said something back about my wife that I can't remember because mine was better.

A few days earlier another one joked about banging my 19 year old daughter.

One time a coworker assaulted me with his flatulence.

What an awful, broken place the corporate world is. The media needs to hear my story and my suffering. Also I'm a huge bully and a super *******.

Well, you're lucky that your workplace tolerates that. I've worked in companies where that would be enough to at least get you called in for a talk with your boss, and quite possibly get you fired on the spot.

 

[Deus Irae]

The First Amendment right to free speech does not give people the right to say literally anything they want to any co-worker in the workplace with impunity.

First, I never claimed it did. Second, so what? My point was in the context of responding to someone else who made a comment that should be seen as objectively wrong. Legally speaking, you don't judge the acceptability of a comment based upon the hurt/nohurt of the person on the receiving end.

 

[BradyManny]

I think it is a Pollyanna view to think that you can put 53 of the type of people that are in the NFL (age, background, sensibilities, tendency toward selfcenteredness, etc) and not have some picking on others and making vulgar jokes.

Your argument contradicts itself.

By your own admission, by putting 53 people with wildly different personalities in a room, the likelihood of someone like Martin (facing depression) being present in every NFL locker room is very, very high. This situation likely would've reared its ugly head many times before if Incognito's bullying was so common place.

The likelihood is that both people involved acted against the norm for an NFL locker room in the situation. I think most people here admit that. It's you and Deus and others who are unwilling to admit that because you think we're attacking your long-held beliefs on political correctness. We're not. That's not what the issue is.

The issue is that this was an avoidable situation, yet for the aforementioned selfish political reasons, you guys want to plane all the blame on Jonathan Martin. Which is just a joke.

 

[mayoclinic]

Let's see, yesterday I joked with a coworker about having sex with his dead mom. He laughed and then said something back about my wife that I can't remember because mine was better.

A few days earlier another one joked about banging my 19 year old daughter.

In any corporate environment that I'm familiar with, those kind of actions would result in mandatory counseling and possibly suspension, with repeated incidents resulting in permanent dismissal.

 

[Ring 6]

Let's see, yesterday I joked with a coworker about having sex with his dead mom. He laughed and then said something back about my wife that I can't remember because mine was better.

A few days earlier another one joked about banging my 19 year old daughter.

One time a coworker assaulted me with his flatulence.

What an awful, broken place the corporate world is. The media needs to hear my story and my suffering. Also I'm a huge bully and a super *******.

The problem with everyone's assessment of this is that we literally have no idea what the Dolphins locker room was like, what Incognito was like or what Martin was like.

If all you heard about me was that I'm working to adopt a child from a war-torn country you'd say what a swell dude I am. If all you heard about me is that I made a dark joke about banging someone's dead mom then you'd say I was a super *******. You have no idea of context and your sample size is exceedingly narrow.

But everyone's in a super hurry to be outraged and this story no different. The Knee-Jerk Outrage generation is in full effect.

We used to joke that every employee in America could be fired if you observed them at just the right time.
Same here. I challenge anyone to consider the 5 worst or most offcolor things they have ever done, and tell me that if a report was written about them they wouldn't sound like Incognito or if they said or did them to the wrong person they wouldn't have had major consequences.

 

[BradyFTW!]

First, I never claimed it did. Second, so what? My point was in the context of responding to someone else who made a comment that should be seen as objectively wrong. Legally speaking, you don't judge the acceptability of a comment based upon the hurt/nohurt of the person on the receiving end.

Why are you moving the goalposts? Did anyone in this thread question the legality of what Incognito said?

If not, you're just pulling things out of your ass.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's weird that the people who are the quickest to invoke free speech are the ones who obviously have no idea what it it means.

Provided that the government doesn't come down on Incognito for what he said--spoiler alert: it won't--you can sleep soundly knowing that his first amendment rights have not been violated.

If I called my boss right now and told him to go **** himself, I would be fired on the spot. If I tried to invoke my first amendment rights to defend what I did, that would make me an incredibly stupid person.

I'm an attorney who's comfortably versed with the BOR, including free speech. What's weird is that people who respond when those rights are brought up often can't grasp simple concepts and try turning things around on the original speaker.

I never claimed Incognito's first amendment rights were violated. I compared the level of protection we give speech to the level of protection we give to people's desire not to be offended.

 

[Deus Irae]

Why are you moving the goalposts? Did anyone in this thread question the legality of what Incognito said?

If not, you're just pulling things out of your ass.

Go back and read. You should have done that before jumping in.

How do you not get it?? The whole point is that he couldn't take it, so it should have stopped.

And yes, I do know it hasn't happened in the Pats locker room because they've never had a player leave for these reasons or had to suspend a player for these reasons.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/1098868-ot-wells-report-dolphins-locker-room-page3.html#post3755789

 

[BradyManny]

What are you talking about?

Proof of what? Proof that you have no proof?

You are saying it would never happen in Foxboro.
I am saying you have no way of knowing that.
My "proof" is that you have absolutely zero insight into how Patriot players act toward each other in private.
My 'proof' is that 6 months ago you could have made the same claim about Miami while it was happening, and if Martin did not walk out, you could still be making it today.

You have not made a point yet that I have not responded to and overcome.

OK. Clearly you do not understand what proof means. First off, I gave you evidence in BB's comments, and former players echoing it. But that's beside the point at this stage, I am not asking you to prove my argument wrong, I'm asking you to prove your argument is correct.

 

[BradyFTW!]

We used to joke that every employee in America could be fired if you observed them at just the right time.
Same here. I challenge anyone to consider the 5 worst or most offcolor things they have ever done, and tell me that if a report was written about them they wouldn't sound like Incognito or if they said or did them to the wrong person they wouldn't have had major consequences.

I've never treated a coworker remotely as badly as they treated their assistant trainer, so no.

I've said some pretty heinous things in my time, too. I've joked about the most un-PC things imaginable with my friends. But I can honestly say that I've never systematically harassed and bullied a coworker who had already confided that he was contemplating suicide, while maintaining a bet over whether or not I could 'break' him. That's just sadistic.

 

[unoriginal]

Very sad and sick.

I think you make a great point. Any team I have ever been on had a divide especially between the good players, totally committed to the success of the team and those that slacked. (Every team from peewee to the NFL has slackers in a relative sense) Calling out the slackers is a normal and common way of trying to elevate team building.
I'm just not sure how anyone expects 53 competitive type A personalities to not have conflict, ballbusting, and a lot of cases of dislike among players.

I will say that I've also seen good players who were not totally committed to team success, and I've seen bad players who were. And usually abuse, good-natured or not, was due to a pecking order based on (1) social popularity, (2) skill, and lastly (3) effort. Not to say effort was ignored, but it was not the major factor in treatment.

I agree both with it being very sad and sick, and also that its what 53 type-A steroid-infused young males will do to each other when left to their own devices. Or rather what 51 type-A's will do to 2 type-B's.

And it's certainly effective! Nobody can deny that. That's why you see it at all levels. If it was a big negative for athletic competition in team sports nobody would do it and coaches wouldn't encourage it or allow it when nobody's reporting on it.

 

[Ring 6]

The idea that Martin needed to tell Incognito he was hurt by his comments for this to constitute bullying/harassment and abuse is absurd.

Firstly Martin indicated in a number of ways that he found the remarks distressing and hurtful. Secondly, even if Martin never let on in any way that he felt abused by Incognito it does not excuse what was happening. These players are part of society, a society that does not accept racism, homophobia and bullying. Incognito should understand that these remarks are unacceptable. The report also clearly shows that he understood what he was doing was wrong.

The worst person to come out of the report is Jim Turner. By joining in with the bullying he essentially legitimised it and abused his position of power.

Jim Turner made a joke.

My God, people are going to joke. The state of the group was that they kidded the player that he was gay. He wasn't. It was a joke. Turner perpetuated the joke among the giving of gag gifts.
If that is abuse, we should fold the tents and shut it all down now.

 

[BradyManny]

I never claimed Incognito's first amendment rights were violated. I compared the level of protection we give speech to the level of protection we give to people's desire not to be offended.

This is proof of your desire to turn this argument into something its not for political reasons.

Its not about PC.

It's about the Dolphins locker room and the actions of some players not being conducive to good team building. Overwhelming evidence suggests this was the case.

 

[SalemPats]

I was fortunate enough to play high level sports in a competitive level. The teammates i made are some of my best friends. In my opinion the teams that are most successful are ones with a great dressing room and great teammates. Ones that you root for and will battle with. Teams with strong leaders and coaching staffs that act like professionals find the problem players and get rid of them. There's a reason the Miami Dolphins are inconsistent. With players like Incognito and Pouncey and a GM like Jeff Ireland and a weak coaching staff in Philbin they allowed this to get out of control. I'm thankful that the Patriots value character and respect. We have a championship mentality

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm an attorney who's comfortably versed with the BOR, including free speech. What's weird is that people who respond when those rights are brought up often can't grasp simple concepts and try turning things around on the original speaker.

I never claimed Incognito's first amendment rights were violated. I compared the level of protection we give speech to the level of protection we give to people's desire not to be offended.

So you invoked the first amendment for literally no reason at all, except to build a (poor) straw man argument.

 

[Nunchucks]

In any corporate environment that I'm familiar with, those kind of actions would result in mandatory counseling and possibly suspension, with repeated incidents resulting in permanent dismissal.

Exactly, in any environment I've worked in, that behavior is unacceptable.