Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[BradyManny]

Then again, all your posts in this thread show a naivete that is striking and a P.C. bias that's obvious, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Yup, that's me, Deus, super naive. That's it.

Or, Incognito is at least sort of an A-Hole, and you just want to turn this into a social/political debate at the expense of the facts.

I will concede one of those two things is happening here.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Why are we demanding telepathic ability from Incognito?

If telepathy = the common sense to dial back the harassment after a guy tells you he's considering killing himself (regardless of the reason why), then yes, it's reasonable to demand telepathic ability from Incognito.

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, shoot, you're right, I forgot it's pretty normal to harass the crap out of somebody after they tell you they are thinking about offing themselves. Yeah, Incognito did nothing wrong here.

So you didn't bother reading the report.


That explains a lot.

 

[BradyManny]

I'm not saying his method was good, but you are the one saying he knew of mental issues, and are apparently ignoring the cause of the call was that the guy who said he has mental problems because he is playing poorly was sitting home instead of at an OTA.

Can we at least agree that Incognito is a huge moron, then?

 

[Ring 6]

It helps keep the people who matter together. Pushing out people who don't fit in is team building. Being inclusive sabatoges the "us-against-the-world" mentality.

There, I've summarized Coaching 101 at most levels. You'd probably understand it better if I was holding you by the jersey and screaming in your face.

I think you make a great point. Any team I have ever been on had a divide especially between the good players, totally committed to the success of the team and those that slacked. (Every team from peewee to the NFL has slackers in a relative sense) Calling out the slackers is a normal and common way of trying to elevate team building.
I'm just not sure how anyone expects 53 competitive type A personalities to not have conflict, ballbusting, and a lot of cases of dislike among players.

 

[BradyManny]

So you didn't bother reading the report.


That explains a lot.

Yeah, I read all 142 pages during my lunch break. Are you kidding me, Deus, no I've only read all the same summaries as everybody else.

Maybe you read the whole thing already, in which case, good for you, but you keep posting things that completely undermine your own argument as if they do otherwise, so what good did that do?

 

[Deus Irae]

Yup, that's me, Deus, super naive. That's it.

Or, Incognito is at least sort of an A-Hole, and you just want to turn this into a social/political debate at the expense of the facts.

I will concede one of those two things is happening here.

I've been involved in sports for pretty much all of my life. I've been around youth teams, college teams and pro teams. I've heard stories/talk from professional athletes, from playground players and in between. I can assure you that your naivete is not a function of whether or not Incognito is an *******.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I think you make a great point. Any team I have ever been on had a divide especially between the good players, totally committed to the success of the team and those that slacked. (Every team from peewee to the NFL has slackers in a relative sense) Calling out the slackers is a normal and common way of trying to elevate team building.
I'm just not sure how anyone expects 53 competitive type A personalities to not have conflict, ballbusting, and a lot of cases of dislike among players.

Nobody here is claiming that NFL locker rooms should not have any conflict, ballbusting, or cases of dislike. As you pointed out, these can be legitimate morale and unity-building devices.

Plenty of us are pointing out that a locker room culture which allows the crap that went on here to happen is fundamentally broken. There's always guys that, left to their own devices, take things way too far and do more harm than good. That's why leadership is important, and it's clear that there were no leaders--coaches or players--in the Dolphins' locker room.

 

[Ring 6]

How do you not get it?? The whole point is that he couldn't take it, so it should have stopped.

Again, CONTEXT.
My comment that if Martin couldn't take it you wouldn't know was directed at your claim that you would know if it was happening in Foxboro.

Why have a discussion if you cannot honestly read a comment in its context and instead try to turn that into me saying Martin not being able to take it makes it OK.

Have a little integrity in your discussion please.

 

[fnordcircle]

Yeah man, it's totally cool to joke about shooting black people and *****ing Martin's sister.

In some environments it is. The more you can laugh at things the less scary the world seems.

As long as everyone is ok with a certain type of joking there is nothing wrong with it. Sometimes the Martin story seems to me like a guy who was ok with it or pretended to be ok with it but changed his mind as his career started taking a dive.

This thread is a good litmus test for people who take **** too seriously.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

No, that's not the whole point. Dear God, what has become of this country? First, there is a right to free speech, but not a right to not be offended. Second, Martin himself wrote to his father that he wasn't letting his teammates know that he had a problem with this stuff.

You're demanding both a non-existent right and that people immediately develop mental telepathy.

The First Amendment right to free speech does not give people the right to say literally anything they want to any co-worker in the workplace with impunity.

 

[DaBruinz]

No, the importance of the tweet, in the context of bullying/harassment, is the part I bolded.

And what's embarassing is your ignoring the fact that Martin admittedly did not tell Turner, Yeatman or Incognito that the problem was the treatment by the players.

Then again, all your posts in this thread show a naivete that is striking and a P.C. bias that's obvious, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

yet, Martin repeatedly told them to stop. They refused and actually increased the amount of harassment they did on him. That's ALSO in the report, Deus.

 

[upstater1]

I'm good with this because Incognito has been bullying teammates, beating them up, assaulting women, for many years. He deserves what's coming to him.

Former teammates of his on other teams have said the guy is a degenerate, a bully and a jackass.

 

[Patsrock]

I think the players who were backing Incognito are going to back away from their comments in the next few weeks.

I don't think Martin or Incognito play another down in the NFL again.

Free speech on protects you from the government, does not protect you from getting fired, getting a job getting sued from non government or frankly getting your ass kicked by someone.


This was a **** show that the Dolphins did a terrible job at controlling with in the organization.

 

[zimmy]

The idea that Martin needed to tell Incognito he was hurt by his comments for this to constitute bullying/harassment and abuse is absurd.

Firstly Martin indicated in a number of ways that he found the remarks distressing and hurtful. Secondly, even if Martin never let on in any way that he felt abused by Incognito it does not excuse what was happening. These players are part of society, a society that does not accept racism, homophobia and bullying. Incognito should understand that these remarks are unacceptable. The report also clearly shows that he understood what he was doing was wrong.

The worst person to come out of the report is Jim Turner. By joining in with the bullying he essentially legitimised it and abused his position of power.

 

[BradyManny]

Have a little integrity in your discussion please.

What? Stop grasping for straws. I've asked you several times to provide any proof for the argument you are making, and instead you drilled down three pages ago to apparently find me misreading one of your many poorly written posts. My bad.

 

[DaBruinz]

So you didn't bother reading the report.


That explains a lot.

Clearly, you didn't read the whole thing.

Pot meet kettle..

 

[Deus Irae]

If telepathy = the common sense to dial back the harassment after a guy tells you he's considering killing himself (regardless of the reason why), then yes, it's reasonable to demand telepathic ability from Incognito.

Again, for what seems like the millionth time, Martin told Incognito that he'd HAD the thoughts, and that they'd been there because of his worry about his play. He didn't say that the was feeling suicidal at that moment because of feeling harassed.

 

[Ring 6]

Nobody here is claiming that NFL locker rooms should not have any conflict, ballbusting, or cases of dislike. As you pointed out, these can be legitimate morale and unity-building devices.

Plenty of us are pointing out that a locker room culture which allows the crap that went on here to happen is fundamentally broken. There's always guys that, left to their own devices, take things way too far and do more harm than good. That's why leadership is important, and it's clear that there were no leaders--coaches or players--in the Dolphins' locker room.

I think it is a Pollyanna view to think that you can put 53 of the type of people that are in the NFL (age, background, sensibilities, tendency toward selfcenteredness, etc) and not have some picking on others and making vulgar jokes.

I'm not sure what you want a leader to do? Go over to 3 guys talking about running train on Martins sister and tell them that is not nice, and they should stop and leave him alone? Thats just not realistic, and from the report it sounds like it is not what Martin would have wanted.
You can pretend that it would be nice if everyone treated everyone politely and with utmost respect, but that simply is not what happens in a lockerroom.

 

[fnordcircle]

Let's see, yesterday I joked with a coworker about having sex with his dead mom. He laughed and then said something back about my wife that I can't remember because mine was better.

A few days earlier another one joked about banging my 19 year old daughter.

One time a coworker assaulted me with his flatulence.

What an awful, broken place the corporate world is. The media needs to hear my story and my suffering. Also I'm a huge bully and a super *******.

The problem with everyone's assessment of this is that we literally have no idea what the Dolphins locker room was like, what Incognito was like or what Martin was like.

If all you heard about me was that I'm working to adopt a child from a war-torn country you'd say what a swell dude I am. If all you heard about me is that I made a dark joke about banging someone's dead mom then you'd say I was a super *******. You have no idea of context and your sample size is exceedingly narrow.

But everyone's in a super hurry to be outraged and this story no different. The Knee-Jerk Outrage generation is in full effect.