Hmm... let Talib walk and cut Wilfork?

[iapatsfan]

I would cut Wilfork and keep Talib. With Talib's past issues and injury history, there might be fewer teams willing to lay out big coin to sign him. As for Wilfork, I'm just not sure 350lb DL are needed as much in today's NFL. 57% of offensive plays are pass plays, and 68% of yards come from passing. Really, what does a run stuffing NG do for you on those plays - especially one that occupies that much of your cap. Getting to the QB should be the number one priority for any defense in today's NFL, and unfortunately players like big Vince don't do that all that well. I'd much rather see his money go to players that make QBs uncomfortable. Vince does not do that.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

As hard as it is - agree completely with Wilfork. Talib I'd take back on a Vollmer type deal, anything more let him walk and look to other options for a starting Cb or a #3/4 if Ryan isn't ready next year.

 

[Bhelmet]

Couldn't we attempt to trade Wilfork? Is his cap hit that high that other teams would not be interested (I have not looked up his cap hit #)? Until I knew for sure Vince cannot make it back, I would want to get something for him. Look what we got for Demps.

 

[ausbacker]

Siliga can replace Wilfork, but if the patriots let Talib Walk they would need to find a #1 corner. The corners could be Grimes, Verner,DRC.

You are kidding right? Replace isn't the same as replicate.

 

[Mack Herron]

Both guys contribute on the field and in the locker room, so both have value. You try to sign both at the right price. I suspect we will sign neither. Talib is a rare blue chip corner and someone will offer more than BB. Wilfork is a prideful player whose value due to injury is now far beneath is contract. He won't accept the offer. Unfortunately, if this happens, the alternatives mean a less talented defense.

 

[RayClay]

I'm sure there are more that you can make up to add to your absurd, imaginary list. Please find me those posts. Please, I would love to read where someone said that Brady should be replaced by a backup or average starter. Same with Gronkowski. You're just making stuff up.

October

Brady might want to rethink about retiring with the patriots. That may not be in his best interest or the team. We may as we'll put Mallet now. When your career is almost over you don't have time to start over with rookies. Rookie receivers should play with rookie Qb so they can learn and grow together.

I'm not sure, but i think there was another one suggesting replacing Gronk because of injuries, but you've got to admit this is pretty ridiculous.

Gronk is out of control!!
He's basically got time to do everything else (acting like a drunk idiot, walking on the "red carpet" of the SB, playing in Madden tournaments, giving his brother a stone cold stunner) except be on the field at the most important times. They can't rely on him anymore. I'm all about doubling up either in the draft with 2 TE's or 1 and convincing Gonzalez not to retire.

So, how do you like your garbage, broiled or sauteed?

 

[Deus Irae]

October


I'm not sure, but i think there was another one suggesting replacing Gronk because of injuries, but you've got to admit this is pretty ridiculous.



So, how do you like your garbage, broiled or sauteed?

The second quote clearly doesn't say to replace Gronk, and the first is a defeatist post about what the Patriots had done, not about Brady's game.

 

[RayClay]

The second quote clearly doesn't say to replace Gronk, and the first is a defeatist post about what the Patriots had done, not about Brady's game.

They can't rely on him anymore. I'm all about doubling up either in the draft with 2 TE's or 1 and convincing Gonzalez not to retire.

Brady might want to rethink about retiring with the patriots. That may not be in his best interest or the team. We may as we'll put Mallet now. When your career is almost over you don't have time to start over with rookies.

I didn't say they ere rational. Holding me to a pretty high standard, aren't we? One wants to replace Brady with mallet, the other wants to draft 1 or 2 TEs and/or Gonzalez because he's had it with Gronk.

I didn't make them up!

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't say they ere rational. Holding me to a pretty high standard, aren't we? One wants to replace Brady with mallet, the other wants to draft 1 or 2 TEs and/or Gonzalez because he's had it with Gronk.

I didn't make them up!

The Gronk one doesn't fit your claim. How is that not "made up"?

The Brady one is not actually advocating a change. That's an incredibly misleading attempt by you.

I'm not holding you to high standards. You failed on just about the lowest standards possible.

 

[RayClay]

The Gronk one doesn't fit your claim. How is that not "made up"?

The Brady one is not actually advocating a change. That's an incredibly misleading attempt by you.

I'm not holding you to high standards. You failed on just about the lowest standards possible.

Oh, stuff a sock in it. We're not talking about reasoned discourse. Of course someone saying they should go with Mallet is based on exasperation, but it was said.

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, stuff a sock in it. We're not talking about reasoned discourse. Of course someone saying they should go with Mallet is based on exasperation, but it was said.

"May as well" is not a call for change. You posted garbage. You got challenged on it by someone else, and I just noted that your posts didn't meet his standards. Stop doubling down.

This is Patsfans.com, home of the "Trade Brady" thread. You can probably find what you're looking for. Try that, instead of pretending that what you posted has already done that.

 

[RayClay]

"May as well" is not a call for change. You posted garbage. You got challenged on it by someone else, and I just noted that your posts didn't meet his standards. Stop doubling down.

This is Patsfans.com, home of the "Trade Brady" thread. You can probably find what you're looking for. Try that, instead of pretending that what you posted has already done that.

You're a riot.

 

[Mark Morse]

Your post makes me think ...

I would like to see Wilfork restructed. If he won't then cutting him has to be seriously considered.

Talib I would tag so that we can negotiate a long term deal. With him our secondary can compete. We have seen what has happened when he goes down.

There are some interesting players in the draft that could help us on defense.

Connolly restructure or cut him too.

Gronk is a make or break season next year. They have a $10M bonus due in 2015. I like the idea of Chandler as the starter until Gronk is back.

 

[mgteich]

We all would IF TALIB WERE LIKELY TO BE HEALTHY FOR THE PLAYOFFS.

This issue is not whether Talib is more talented than Ward.

That being said, I think that the patriots and Talib will reach a reasonable deal, as they did last year.

If someone want to pay him as if he is #3 CB in the game and will be healthy, then I don't think that we should or will compete with that kind of offer.

Healthy Talib is honestly the 3rd best CB in the league, behind Sherman/Revis. (One could argue haden/Peterson) Anyone we replace him with will be a downgrade.

Also, Dennard will become Ellis Hobbs as a #1 CB.

Option 1:

Talib
Dennard
McCourty
Gregory/Harmon

Option 2:

Dennard
Ryan/rookie
McCourty
Ward

I'd rather Option 1.

 

[jsull87]

If he can't go Physically then I reluctantly agree about cutting big Vince. You don't pay people for what they did. That being said:

Personally i am hoping that we end up going the route of Re-Structuring his contract. I think sometimes we forget players when they are out of sight. There is a lot of speculation about his achillies injury out there but at the moment that's all it is.

One thing I agree with Mayo on is I like the continuity of our secondary the past 2 years. I'd like to do all we can to keep Talib, unfortunately we can only go so far and it all depends on what he wants out of his deal. He has missed games in both seasons with us with his Hip and thats a worry.

I am probably in the minority here in saying I thing we are fine at DT with Wilfork, Kelly, Jones, Siliga and Armstead (?). IMO DE and Saftey is the spots we need to address to make the leap (and maybe Harmon is that guy?).

But I get Kontra's point about the Salary cap distribution. Personally i think restructuring Mankins & Wilfork, extending McCourty and Gostkowski and cutting Sopoaga and potentially Connolly/Gregory are the list of prudent moves health willing. I am also praying that Hernandez's hit gets wiped off as it would be a shame for one cent to go to that guy.

Edelman's not back IMO but I think a mid range WR e.g Sanders can be had for less money and brady will make them look just as good.

So in summary I want us to look after our own on defense in FA with restructurings to help resignings. Possibly cutting Gregory but my money would be that we don't.

On O I think Edelman will be to expensive and tough decisions are there for Connolly and Wendell.

I don't pretend to have the answers but i'd go FA Chandler TE, FA Sanders WR, Connolly move to C, Cannon to RG.

From there you are using the draft to suplement an already championship calibre team.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm not sure, but i think there was another one suggesting replacing Gronk because of injuries, but you've got to admit this is pretty ridiculous.?

Of course that is ridiculous. But here's what you did: you took Kontra's well-reasoned, rational post and tied it to the words of exasperated fans. You contributed nothing to the topic.

I've actually read in this forum this year that Brady, Wilfork, Gronk and Talib could and should be replaced, by backups or average starters.

Is there anyone else? That's a pretty impressive list.

You then posted, without actually citing who wrote them, two posts that do not really say what you are claiming. No matter, because nobody wrote "replace them with anybody it doesn't matter I'm just a mad fan who is mad and irrational and I hate this" as you were insinuating.

You jumped in to a topic that had reasonable discussion, complained about unreasonable fans that had nothing to do with the thread, and then found a couple of posts that you did not cite that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. As Deus pointed out, you can basically find any awful opinion you can possible imagine at some point within these hallowed internet tubes, but that doesn't make them any sort of zeitgeist within the Patsfans board.

As for the actual topic at hand, which you still could actually contribute to, I am for signing Talib and cutting Wilfork. I am not for replacing them with "backups or average starters." But here's the thing---Wilfork was a below average starter when he played this year. He is likely damaged goods. I love the guy, but if he isn't willing to play for peanuts I'd rather bring in someone who didn't just suffer the most devastating injury someone at his position can suffer. If his health checks out, bring him back. I'm also only for signing Talib if the Pats can get a good value. If he is seeking Asante money he can go the Asante route and the Pats will keep on trucking.

 

[zoostation]

My offseason wish list is not large nor does it require expensive players:
1) Safety - IMO if we assume health to Vince, Kelly, Mayo, and Talib is back then IMO this is the obvious glaring hole on D. I like Gregory but clearly we can improve there.

2) Interior OL - I think we should be drafting something here as it is time to invest on the interior OL again and stop getting by with lesser talent. I am assuming Connelly could be a cap cut if he is back I still think we need more talent but obviously slightly less of a need.

3) Back Up TE who can start - I think this should be done through the draft as well and it would be great to find another flex TE like Ahern but anything that is capable of contributing to the passing game if Gronk misses time is a must.

4) Depth at LB - This can come from anywhere as I feel we have a solid group of starters in Mayo, Hightower, Collins but Fletcher is our best depth and with Spikes leaving we should be replacing that.

5) Back Up DE - I think we need to add a guy to rotate with Nink and Chandler as they seemed to wear down a little as the year went on having their worst game against Denver.

6) Interior DL - this is a funny spot to judge as this could be anywhere from completely full to fairly bare. If we bring back Kelly and Vince + Siliga, Armstead, Chris Jones, and Vellano and you have a lot of bodies. Kelly and Vince are gone and without knowing Armstead you are fairly bare.

Hard to disagree with any of this. These are the needs. Not as sexy as the stud wideout everyone wants but imo more effective.

 

[RayClay]

Of course that is ridiculous. But here's what you did: you took Kontra's well-reasoned, rational post and tied it to the words of exasperated fans. You contributed nothing to the topic.

I didn't reply to his post, I replied to the thread topic. My point being that cutting people because they are injured or had a bad game usually isn't a solution, nor is loading up on free agents.

I didn't respond directly to his post, so I didn't tie it to anything. I did respond to a poster who said and repeated that Siliga is a direct replacement for Wilfork.

I think they should wait on Wilfork's health and a possible restructuring before any of these rash decisions are made because he can't be replaced in the short term and i would go with a top draft pick for a DT either way. Every tackle we have now is a backup, possible rotation Tackle.

As for cutting Talib and thinking about it later? Why would we think suddenly we can find another tall all pro cornerback? Are our memories that short?

I think our front office is measured and patient in their evaluation and I know of no top program that cuts first, then hopes to fill spots, especially of their best players. They rarely cut top players without having replacements unless because they are bad team mates.

That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

 

[RayClay]

As for the actual topic at hand, which you still could actually contribute to, I am for signing Talib and cutting Wilfork. I am not for replacing them with "backups or average starters." But here's the thing---Wilfork was a below average starter when he played this year. He is likely damaged goods. I love the guy, but if he isn't willing to play for peanuts I'd rather bring in someone who didn't just suffer the most devastating injury someone at his position can suffer. If his health checks out, bring him back. I'm also only for signing Talib if the Pats can get a good value. If he is seeking Asante money he can go the Asante route and the Pats will keep on trucking.

OK, I haven't examined Wilfork. Of course he was lousy last year, he was struggling and sweating, probably favoring a soon to be ruptured achilles. If he can play, he's irreplaceable in the short term (knowledge, familiarity, ability) if he can't, that's what the FO has to deal with (unlike others, I'm not an experienced NFL executive).

Again, I'm not pretending to pre-negotiate with Talib, nor am I capable of imagining other cornerbacks in his place and plugging them into our defense and locker room. Being incapable of making those front office business and talent evaluation judgments (even experienced GMs don't know how a player will perform[hey Ocho] until he plays 6 months/year or so) My tendency would be to look to the recent past.

How many allpro level tall cornerbacks have had success in our system recently? Maybe, before we prenegotiate and decide to cut, we should try to make that work, then move on one way or another?

Just me, I honestly admit i don't know how to scout or negotiate contracts, much less build teams at an NFL level.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

Don't know if pats should let go of 2 of the best players on this D. If Pats let them go they better have a plan in place to at least get almost as close to same production. IMO you cant say let them go and go draft x y z. What you are doing is letting go of a sure thing and HOPING beyond hope that somehow rookies can replace them. And chances are they wont which in turn makes this team weaker.

Wilfork - You try to restructure and if nothing works and the pats feel like letting him go they better go get a productive veteran DT and draft another one early.

Talib- Ward is great at safety but he isn't replacing Talib if he is let go. All you're doing is covering one weakness while creating another. Again try to keep Talib but if not then same thing as WIlfork. Get a veteran and draft one early.

As you can see it will take 2 players to replace one which is why letting both go should be last resort. I feel the Pats can restructure Wilfork and make a fair offer to Talib. Both can be worked with. We should be thinking of adding more talent not letting talent go.

Cap- There are multiple articles out there from Mike Loyko and others on how to restructure and cut your way to about 25-28M under the cap. It can be done while retaining your pieces. Time to go all in IMO is now.