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Hmm... let Talib walk and cut Wilfork?

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Talib got one of the offseason award parking spots this season, so it seems participating in offseason workouts didn't help enough.
First I've heard of this.
 
i am fine with talib walking...never healthy when we need him
 
Wilfork, unfortunately, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would re-sign with the team on a lesser deal if he's cut outright. I would be fine with Whitner at safety, but Byrd should be the cream of the crop as far as safeties go and more than likely will price himself out of the Pats range.


This is a tough topic for me as i am a huge Wilfork fan and want him to finish his career in NE, and I believe that's what he wants as well, but you may be right and he may take serious offense at them releasing him even if it is with the stipulation that they want to reach a new agreement. Unfortunately the circumstances are such that they cannot pay him the 11 million he is due and the restructures still leave them in a precarious position going forward unless he comes back at full strength for the net few seasons, which is a big risk. On the other hand he is going to have very little leverage and no team is going to give him any kind of big contract without all sorts of conditions, so the Patriots may actually be the best deal he is offered when all is said and done.


The Hernandez situation has put them in a serious bind and they are going to have to be really careful about all their dealings for the next year or two because they cannot afford any more dead money than they are already carrying, however on the other hand they still need to find ways to really improve this team to get another ring before Brady is done. If they can find ways to get these deals done then I am all for it but imo there are going to be some guys we want on this team leaving town. It is going to be an interesting offseason, that much is for sure.
 
Patriots play a ton of Cover one, and they should have stuck with that when the played the Broncos, which Safteys do you suggest going after? Browns have 45M on cap (Corey Joel) So Ward isnt an option. That leaves Whitner who will likely be paid top money. Why upgrade the secondary when it was so good this year. The Pats don't have unlimited Cap space Dline, Oline, WR, TE IMO are all way more important then replacing Gregory.

I'm picking Safety as my top position of need. And for the record I kind of like Gregory and think he gets a bad rap just not at 3 Mil. And more importantly I see it as an obvious spot where improvement can be made and where we can really solidify this team. If Talib walks then a DB is a must and if Talib is back and we can add a really good safety then this will be one of the better secondaries in the league.

Its a copy cat league and based on how pass happy the NFL is now I want to copy Seatlle's blue print a little and build from the back end and with Talib back and a better safety than Gregory we will have our own version of the legion of boom.

You say "Dline, Oline, WR, TE IMO are all way more important then replacing Gregory."

Dline - If both Vince and Kelly walk you might be right but I want both back but trust BB will make the right move regarding Vince and if its time its time.

O-line - I think this is where I want to improve the O the most but if I had a choice between keeping Gregory and getting a OL or keeping Connelly and getting a safety I will take the safety. I think we can improve both especially considering we can use the money from their cuts to do so (or at least curb the cost of doing so).

WR - if Edelman is back then no need at all unless you are giving up completely on Dobson, Thompkins, and Boyce? Even with Edelman gone I think Amendola, Dobson, and Thompkins should be enough but puts more onus on Gronks health and TE2.

TE - Unless you are giving up on Gronk this is not more important than Safety. However getting a viable TE2 is a need especially one who can be part of the passing game in Gronks absence.
 
Who said anything about dumping Brady and Gronk?


I was talking about the defense.
One could argue very similarly about Gronk too though.
 
I think Talib can work a good mutual deal with BB, he seems to enjoy being here, but if those rumors about the Redskins are true, if they have interest, it's still a good option for him, good city, playoff team and the money,

I can see that he may refuse big money and mediocre franchise, but he's in position to get attention from contenders.
 
This is a tough topic for me as i am a huge Wilfork fan and want him to finish his career in NE, and I believe that's what he wants as well, but you may be right and he may take serious offense at them releasing him even if it is with the stipulation that they want to reach a new agreement. Unfortunately the circumstances are such that they cannot pay him the 11 million he is due and the restructures still leave them in a precarious position going forward unless he comes back at full strength for the net few seasons, which is a big risk. On the other hand he is going to have very little leverage and no team is going to give him any kind of big contract without all sorts of conditions, so the Patriots may actually be the best deal he is offered when all is said and done.


The Hernandez situation has put them in a serious bind and they are going to have to be really careful about all their dealings for the next year or two because they cannot afford any more dead money than they are already carrying, however on the other hand they still need to find ways to really improve this team to get another ring before Brady is done. If they can find ways to get these deals done then I am all for it but imo there are going to be some guys we want on this team leaving town. It is going to be an interesting offseason, that much is for sure.

Not saying this is neccessarily the case with Vince but if the player is not worth the money anymore than it is basically dead money already and cutting however little it may be will always be a slightly smaller expense.

Like you said this is such a tough topic because Vince is such a fan favorite and he could still have several years left 32 isnt that old for a NT. But the cap hit is so big and the achilles is a tough one to recover from. I am not inclined to cut him but I am also not inclined to give him more years so I suggest we roll the dice and see what he can do if it cost 11 Mil so be it. Also there if we go this route we can cut him at a later date and save the money though there wouldnt be much to use it on at that point other than roll over to next year.

Most people on here wouldnt like plan for this offseason though so I would assume most dont like this part of the plan either. My plan would have very little free agent activity as what little cap space we have I would use on Edelman and Talib. I wouldnt cut Vince or Kelly. I would try to improve on Connelly/Wendell and Gregory but there really wouldnt be much money for it and I am OK with them. The draft would be key as always to fill in the holes and round out the depth. Basically I would role the dice that this years team can come back healthy enough and that the first and second year players will develope. Hopefully I can find a little cash to get a reliable back up TE in the passing game.
 
I'm picking Safety as my top position of need. And for the record I kind of like Gregory and think he gets a bad rap just not at 3 Mil. And more importantly I see it as an obvious spot where improvement can be made and where we can really solidify this team. If Talib walks then a DB is a must and if Talib is back and we can add a really good safety then this will be one of the better secondaries in the league.

Its a copy cat league and based on how pass happy the NFL is now I want to copy Seatlle's blue print a little and build from the back end and with Talib back and a better safety than Gregory we will have our own version of the legion of boom.



TE - Unless you are giving up on Gronk this is not more important than Safety. However getting a viable TE2 is a need especially one who can be part of the passing game in Gronks absence.
I think this would improve NE much more (Overthecap- $4,683,946)
1. Cut Vince Wilfork- (Cap-$12,188,046)
2. Cut Sopoaga-(Cap-$14,193,046)
3. Cut Kelly-(Cap-$16,198,046)
4. June 1 cut Adrain Wilson(Cap-$17,275,380)
5. Extend McCourty 4 years with 10m signing bonus and move 2014 salary to 1m(Cap-18,195,380)
6. Extend Gostkowski 4 years with 5m signing bonus moving 2014 salary to 900k(Cap-19,195,380)
7.Sign Talib
8.Sign Michael Johnson
10 Sign Joique Bell
11. Sign Fletcher
12. Move Connolly to center
13.Trade mallet for 33 pick
14. Draft as following G,WR ,DT, TE
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2014/01/2014-patriots-mock-draft-senior-bowl-edition.html. Instead of Coleman, Allen Robinson

Wilfork is a great player, but with the emergence of Silver Siliga it doesn't make sense to be paying a run stuffer 8m. Pats need pass rush MIchael Johnson can join Jones/Ninkovich and alternate at DE and have Jones play DT on third downs.

On the offensive side the Pats can move Connolly to center and play a first round Guard, they could also sign Incognito to start a Guard. At WR they can Play Dobson, Robinson and Amendola with Fiedorowicz at TE.

Depth chart:
QB: Brady, Aaron Murray
RB: Ridley, Bell, Vereen, Bolden
FB: Develin
X WR: Dobson, Thomkins, Harrison
Z WR: Allen Robinson, Moe
Slot WR: Amendola, Boyce
TE: Gronk, C.J. Fiedorowicz, Gator Hoskins
LT: Solder
LG: Mankins, Kline
C: Connolly, Cave
RG: Zack Martin
RT: Volmer, Cannon
LE: Ninkovich, Buchanan, Bequette
DT: Siliga, Vellano
DT: DaQuan Jones, Armstead, Chris Jones
RE: Jones, Michael Johnson
WlB: Mayo, Christian Kirksey
MLB: Hightower, Beauharnus
SLB: Collins, Fletcher
CB: Talib, Green
CB: Dennard, Ryan
Slot CB:Arringron
FS: McCourty, Harmon
SS: Gregory, Wilson, Ebner
 
When I look at the defensive line, I see three guys who weren't on the the opening day active roster who got invaluable regular season and playoff experience who are valuable assets heading into camp: Vellano, Chris Jones and Siliga. I see a 4th guy who may or may not be a good player: Armstead. And, I see a talented veteran 4-man line in Kelly, Wilfork, Jones and Ninkovich. That's eight guys.

No matter what happens with Vince, I think they should draft a DL with the 1st or 2nd round pick to add to that mix.

I think the Patriots should be very conservative with Wilfork. An Achilles tendon in a guy his age and weight is a career-ender. If he's near 100%, they should re-structure his deal in a respectful way. He's been down this path before and should be willing to do what's best for himself and the team.

As I've said before, I think the Patriots should slap the non-exclusive franchise tag on Talib. If somebody else wants him for a long-term deal, take the two #1 draft picks and don't look back.
 
I think he compliments Dmac really well playing in the robber role with McCourty as the single high safety. Gregory plays the run well and isn't asked to do much in the passing game. Tavon Wilson any Harmon are hard hitters.
As for the Dline, I think they should sign a third DE to alternate with Jones, Ninko a guy like Michael Johnson, Houston, Tuck ect and draft a DT like Aaron Donald, that would greatly improve the pass rush.

Cousin,
Please keep in mind only one of the 44 players on the starting O and D of the Superbowl Teams was a Rookie. It's great to say if we get Donald or Jernigan they are plug and play NFL ready. Remember this....... Three years. That is the shelf life of a Draft pick before an assessment can be made. There are a few who are ready quicker, but less than 17%.

Cutting VW will not happen. Restructure has to.

Seven of the D line rotation of the Seahawks were Trades or FA.

I love Ninko but he is a good player, not a field changer. Not a great player.

I am not ready to say McCourty is the next Ed Reed. He is good, not great in my opinion.

You need "good" players to build a Team. You need Great players to make a difference like a Reggie White, a Jimmy Brown, a Montana or a Megatron or even a Gronk when healthy. the field tilters they say.

I think you take our "good" and back a few "good" pieces missing last year like Mayo and VW from IR, and add some more who might be good and have the capacity to become great here. Moss became Great here, Welker, Dillon, Harrison, Vrabel. They were good but became great.

The Draft helps. It fills the roster with depth but let's look at it from the perspective of the last Teams left in the dance this year at the SB.

You build through the Draft but it is a process and a lengthily one. The Trades and FA additions come with a true NFL stor and pedigreey, not how great they were in college.

I am for a stout D, but we have to add a few more pieces on the O. The three kid WR's were mediocre at best. Hopefully one or two will emerge. Boyce had less than Bethel Johnson numbers at that point and KT had a few more than......Tate!

Let's talk some reasonable priced "good" players who can become great.

O line helps the passing game and even can make receivers better. We need a top center who is tough (not Connelly) Love Mack but the Browns just can't let him go and they have CAP space. FA Deitrich-Smith of the Pack was rated only slightly below him and he can pass block.

We need a WR to the mix. We can talk Decker but he will cost big for what he is. I rather discuss Andre Johnson of the Texans and they in-turn have interest in Mallet. Johnson will cost but maybe a lot less than we would have had to pay Fitzgerald in the long run.

As a value I have already mentioned WR Justin Blackmon who if he is back sober and focused, at 25 years old, would be a great pick up. Jags might be tempted for a pick or players.

WR Sidney Rice can play when healthy and only 27. He is a CAP casualty for sure. We took a shot at Amendola with injury risk, right? Cheap money for a potential young WR star?

We need a move TE. Another CAPeroo will be Owen Daniel. Good target and dependable. Back from a leg break but ready.

How about this for a move TE. Riley Cooper. He had 47 catches for 835 yards and eight TDs as a bigger WR. So his production equals and exceeds Hernandez. At 6'3" he is bigger than Hernandez and his attributes are blocking (Hernandez, not so much) and ball skills. BB likes receivers who can block. I see him as an 80-90 catch guy here. A real red zone alternative. 8 TD's.

D line has had some good moments. The 3 DT's on IR should help. A little CAP tweaking and they can all stay. Then good DT rotation with the kids with another year experience.

DE is an issue. They flat ran out of gas. Ya need Michael Johnson, Jared Allen or Julius Peppers. Two of these would be better but I think the last two have made their $ and a Ring is in the offing. I see at least one in a friendly deal (pending Peppers is cut. We did kick his tires). We share reps and rotate the last two.

I see Johnson replacing Nink and Nink back at LB/DE rotation if we invest that much (the Pats looked at Johnson last year) in the pricier Johnson who has freekish talent.

Johnson accounted for 61 pressures this year (according to Pro Football Focus). Easily a career-high. Johnson also generated a career-high in forced fumbles (2), passes knocked down at the line of scrimmage (9) and defensive stops (33) -- plays that constitute as a failure for the offense. Johnson ranked second in the NFL (among all 4-3 defensive ends) with a +21.2 score against the run.

Jones and Jonson as bookends? We should be set for years at that position. Even add just Nink and we have some pressure. Have Collins rush the passer more. I even see Nink as an MLB in some defenses. Why not?

At Safety I trade Ridley for Antrel Rolle, Helps both Teams and we resign Blount who has more favor of BB.

Keep Talib, restructure VW and Kelly, re- sign Blount to trade Ridley who is gone in 2015, for S Rolle. Swap Mallett (also gone in 2015) and ???? for Texans WR Andre Johnson and pick up cheaper WR FA Riley Cooper for his new position as move TE and add the cheaper TE Owen Daniels another CAPeroo until Gronk returns. Edelman is a luxury resign with Amendola tied up here....that sucks. Gotta give Danny A for effort though. And sign Dietrich-Smith at C.

Cut the usual subjects like Connelly, Gregory, Sopoaga and A.Wilson to save CAP. Cut the ineffective Tavon Wilson experiment who is a big Draft BooBoo and Beguette, both for the sake of humanity.

Most expensive signing is UFA DE Michael Johnson but he is a stud.

Now go to the Draft board for depth.

So I say keep Talib and Wilfork.

DW Toys
 
Who said anything about dumping Brady and Gronk?

I think it was the Cinci game a poster suggested sitting Brady in favor of Mallet. The Gronk one is fairly new, probably front page. We need to cut him and pick up Pitta, or something.
 
I know we need a DT to generate interior pressure but in these discussions I notice a pattern talking about Jones + Ninko as our DE's.

We really need an upgrade over Ninko, ideally, not only one since there's a need for a good rotation. Ninko had 2 good seasons but before that he was slow as hell, I appreciate his effort to improve as a player, but natural talent comes first. I'm happy with Ninko and Carter adding depth. I don't expect anything from Buchanan.
 
Edelman has to be resigned!! Get a contract with a low cap hit next season so that we can get by with having amendola and cut him after 2014 if he disappoints.

Sorry wilfork needs to have an incentive laden deal to be on the team. Extend gost, mccourty, and restructure mankins and mayo. Siliga, Chris jones, armstead, and possibly Arthur jones/Kelly at a reduced price.

Resign fletcher. Draft Amaro in the first round and then go defense/OL rest of the draft.

Get Talib on deal that avgs 6 mil provided he stays healthy and if not sign grimes. If any money left get TJ ward.

Qb Brady and mallet
Rb Ridley vereen bolden McFadden
Fb develin
Wr Edelman thompkins
Wr Dobson Boyce
Slot amendola moe
Te Gronk amaro Harrison hooman
Lt solder
Lg mankins
C Connolly
Rg cannon
Rt vollmer

De chandler jones
DT siliga armstead
DT Arthur jones Chris jones
De nink
Olb mayo
MLB Hightower
Olb Collins
Cb Talib/grimes
Cb dennard
Cb Ryan or Arrington (pay cut for Kyle!)
Fs mccourty
Ss ward
 
I'm no cap expert so could someone please explain to me why cutting Wilfork makes more sense than restructurin him?

Even if he comes back at 75% of what he use to be I still think that puts him in the top 15 or so DTs in the league. We finally have some playmakers at the LB spot I think at big body like Vince at say, 4.5 mil a year, would greatly benefit those players. Big Vince is an intelligent guy and he knows football is a business. I think he'd be willing to do it.

IMO the defense's greatest need, and the teams second behind TE, is D line. The Pats walked a tightrope this year with only 2 quality DEs on the roster. If either one went down it would have been an utter disaster. For me the game is still won up front and a player like Michael Johnson fits the bill. The Seahawks won the Super Bowl because manning was being harassed all day long. The d backs get the credit because they have big mouths but they win games because their d line is unbelievably underrated. Upgrading our depth at DT/DE should be top priority I think a guy like Johnson and/or A. Jones who could kick in on third downs would make everyone on the back end look a LOT better. I only want Talib back at 5 mil or less.
 
Considering how hard it is to find a quality cornerback, i think we need to keep Talib.The only way i would agree with that is if we already had a great front 4 or we replace him with a fearsome safety comparable to a young Edd Reed, something we've been lacking since Rodney Harrison.
 
I think BB will give Wilfork the benefit of the doubt for the duration of preseason and see how that turns out before he pulls the trigger.
 
I'm no cap expert so could someone please explain to me why cutting Wilfork makes more sense than restructurin him?

Thats easy has it has nothing to do with the cap and more to do with a 32 old 300+ LB man coming back from an achilles injury.

If you restructure you save money this year and spend it on other years unless he just flat out gives money back to stay.

I am not ready to give up on him so I suggest we just let it play out even if it cost 11 Mil.
 
I think BB will give Wilfork the benefit of the doubt for the duration of preseason and see how that turns out before he pulls the trigger.

OK, but that approach keeps our FA $ really low.

Big Wilfork fan here, but Kontra's post has me re-thinking. Even DW had a couple ideas that merit consideration. I think that the over riding decision BB has to make is, does he think the Pats are close to good enough to win the SB given a draft and couple journeyman FAs for depth or does he think that taking the risk of making substantive roster changes, something he's proven willing to do previously, is what's really needed to compete with the Denver-Seattle-SF level of playoff opponent? I'm now leaning towards the latter.
 
Patriots play a ton of Cover one, and they should have stuck with that when the played the Broncos,

I may have to take a second look at the personnel packages and formations they rolled out, but I saw them playing more Cover 2 this year than Cover 1. IIRC, they employed more Cover 1 looks against teams that were primarily against teams with lesser passing offenses, like the Jets, Dolphins, Texans, etc.

which Safteys do you suggest going after?

Like Ward, wouldn't mind Whitner, and listed three hard hitting draft prospects that weren't liabilities in coverage during their college careers. Like mayoclinic, I'm really warming to Deone Bucannon.

Why upgrade the secondary when it was so good this year.

The secondary was at it's best at the beginning of the season. How much of that was health up front and how much of that was quality of offensive opponent, I'm not sure. What I am sure of is that as soon as Talib got injured during the Saints game, the secondary did go downhill for quite a while and wasn't exactly killing it in the AFCCG.

The Pats don't have unlimited Cap space Dline, Oline, WR, TE IMO are all way more important then replacing Gregory.

I have it like this...

1. DT/DE
2. S
3. OL
4. TE

DL is deep in the draft so the team can secure that there, if they want to. Either that, or they can go the FA route for guys like Johnson and Joseph. S isn't particularly deep in the draft, so they may have to invest a day two pick to get the guy they want. A FA may make more sense and have more of an immediate impact at that position. They have options on the team already for OL. They can move Connolly back to C and Cannon to RG, or draft a C and a G later on. TE they can go either way on.

EDIT: Also forgot to throw WR into that mix, as well.
 
I've actually read in this forum this year that Brady, Wilfork, Gronk and Talib could and should be replaced, by backups or average starters.

Is there anyone else? That's a pretty impressive list.

I'm sure there are more that you can make up to add to your absurd, imaginary list. Please find me those posts. Please, I would love to read where someone said that Brady should be replaced by a backup or average starter. Same with Gronkowski. You're just making stuff up.

Also, if you actually watched him this year, Wilfork was a shell of himself before his injury. Maybe that was because of an existing injury, but that doesn't exactly make a compelling case for why he should not be cut. Big Vince is one of my all-time favorite Patriots. He will save the team 8 million if cut that can be spent on someone who is not coming off an injury that is absolutely devastating for someone who pushes off with his legs on every play against large men.

Also great job not contributing anything at all here, you're just complaining about a well thought out post by Kontra---agree or disagree, but bring some ideas and some thought to the table instead of spewing hot garbage.
 
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