Hmm... let Talib walk and cut Wilfork?

[Kontradiction]

I didn't reply to his post, I replied to the thread topic. My point being that cutting people because they are injured or had a bad game usually isn't a solution, nor is loading up on free agents.

I didn't respond directly to his post, so I didn't tie it to anything. I did respond to a poster who said and repeated that Siliga is a direct replacement for Wilfork.

I think they should wait on Wilfork's health and a possible restructuring before any of these rash decisions are made because he can't be replaced in the short term and i would go with a top draft pick for a DT either way. Every tackle we have now is a backup, possible rotation Tackle.

As for cutting Talib and thinking about it later? Why would we think suddenly we can find another tall all pro cornerback? Are our memories that short?

I think our front office is measured and patient in their evaluation and I know of no top program that cuts first, then hopes to fill spots, especially of their best players. They rarely cut top players without having replacements unless because they are bad team mates.

That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

Your first mistake was replying to the thread title instead of actually reading the post (which you now pretty much admit that you didn't do). If you had actually taken the time to read the post, you would realize that I offered a few very viable alternatives outside of just signing high priced FA's for the hell of it. As for Talib, I'm for bringing him back in if he's for accepting a smaller and incentive laden contract. Tall CB's are fine. Tall CB's commanding top five at their position money that you have yet to be able to count on in the playoffs with chronic injury concerns in one area of their bodies are not. His loss isn't as large if we can replace him with someone else that can perform at a high level while using that money to upgrade other areas of the defense that desperately need it. Again, read the post and not just the topic next time THEN reply.

 

[PatsFan2]

Kontra: We can only let Talib walk IF we have a comparable replacement on the roster. I think you know we don't when he goes down this Defense is turn to absolute $h!t. IF Talib didn't mean so much to this Defense I would say let him walk but I until BB Drafts or Sign a comparable replacement we are Forced to keep him even with his injury history.

 

[Kontradiction]

Don't know if pats should let go of 2 of the best players on this D. If Pats let them go they better have a plan in place to at least get almost as close to same production. IMO you cant say let them go and go draft x y z. What you are doing is letting go of a sure thing and HOPING beyond hope that somehow rookies can replace them. And chances are they wont which in turn makes this team weaker.

Wilfork - You try to restructure and if nothing works and the pats feel like letting him go they better go get a productive veteran DT and draft another one early.

Talib- Ward is great at safety but he isn't replacing Talib if he is let go. All you're doing is covering one weakness while creating another. Again try to keep Talib but if not then same thing as WIlfork. Get a veteran and draft one early.

As you can see it will take 2 players to replace one which is why letting both go should be last resort. I feel the Pats can restructure Wilfork and make a fair offer to Talib. Both can be worked with. We should be thinking of adding more talent not letting talent go.

Cap- There are multiple articles out there from Mike Loyko and others on how to restructure and cut your way to about 25-28M under the cap. It can be done while retaining your pieces. Time to go all in IMO is now.

They're two of the best players on D WHEN HEALTHY*. The issue here is that Wilfork is recovering from one of the hardest injuries to come back from for any player in the NFL, let alone a two gapping DT that has to take on double teams and puts a lot of stress on that area. The chances that Wilfork won't come back anywhere near the same player that he once was are very much higher than the chances that he will come back the same player, or near it. Add to that his cap hit is extremely large for the forseeable future and you may have a likely cap casualty. Wilfork has been invaluable to this defense, but the team moved to a lot more one gapping last year than they have in any previous year I can remember. If that's the case, they have Siliga and can either go the FA route with Joseph or Cody or the draft route with guys like Nix, Tuitt, or Jernigan (if they plan continuing to one gap more, this would definitely be our guy).

Talib was playing like a top five CB. He also has hip issues that spring up every season and have at the worst times the last two. If he wants to get paid like a top five CB, we should let him walk and use the money to upgrade other positions along the defense while bringing in guys like Shields or Grimes (who should cost less) or going through the draft route (where it's absolutely flush with guys that specialize in press and are over 6'). Of course, those two positions definitely need to find suitable replacements if my OP comes to fruition. The inability to find suitable replacements for guys that have walked has been this team's undoing in recent times. But, again, there are very viable alternatives out there. Cutting Wilfork, letting Talib walk if he asks for top five money, and restructuring guys like Mankins while also cutting Gregory gives the team very significant cap relief and they can load up quickly with a more aggressive and attacking defense while still adding pieces they need on offense if they do it right.

 

[RayClay]

Your first mistake was replying to the thread title instead of actually reading the post (which you now pretty much admit that you didn't do). If you had actually taken the time to read the post, you would realize that I offered a few very viable alternatives outside of just signing high priced FA's for the hell of it. As for Talib, I'm for bringing him back in if he's for accepting a smaller and incentive laden contract. Tall CB's are fine. Tall CB's commanding top five at their position money that you have yet to be able to count on in the playoffs with chronic injury concerns in one area of their bodies are not. His loss isn't as large if we can replace him with someone else that can perform at a high level while using that money to upgrade other areas of the defense that desperately need it. Again, read the post and not just the topic next time THEN reply.

I read your post. I didn't reply to it because the premise that we should decide to cut people now just because of money, then go for unknown free agents going for their career contract (this is true of Ward anyway) to spend it, is poor business practice IMO.

I don't need to reply on what style of Lamborgini a player should buy with his contract, if I think he should do other things.

I very much do have an opinion on the premise.

 

[dales804]

I read your post. I didn't reply to it because the premise that we should decide to cut people now just because of money, then go for unknown free agents going for their career contract (this is true of Ward anyway) to spend it, is poor business practice IMO.

I don't need to reply on what style of Lamborgini a player should buy with his contract, if I think he should do other things.

I very much do have an opinion on the premise.

I see what you're saying here but BB doesn't have a problem cutting guys because of the money. We all know the names and and some were just as big a part of the team as Wilfork (Milloy, McGinest, Law, Seymour (though traded)).

Myself, I was leery of resigning Talib because of his injury history before he got hurt again in the AFCCG . I'm just glad I don't have to make that decision. I'll be fine with whatever route NE chooses there.

 

[RayClay]

I see what you're saying here but BB doesn't have a problem cutting guys because of the money. We all know the names and and some were just as big a part of the team as Wilfork (Milloy, McGinest, Law, Seymour (though traded)).

Myself, I was leery of resigning Talib because of his injury history before he got hurt again in the AFCCG . I'm just glad I don't have to make that decision. I'll be fine with whatever route NE chooses there.

He made contract offers to all of them, I believe. Trading a disgruntled Seymour for a bad teams #1 was a pretty good deal, after they weren't in synch for contracts.

Let's see what Wilfork's health is, I don't think that's known. Why get rid of the best cornerback we've had in years that also has size? So we'll play like Talib's sick 16 games a year?

If Talib has a chronic injury, try to trade him or low ball him, but why cut him so we can go back to haveing a bunch of smuerfs at the position? Our next best CB was Dennard and he looked like a child covering some of these bigger receivers.

Lot harder to build a team than to tear one up. I doubt we're going to luck into adequate replacements.

 

[nabwong]

Who said anything about dumping Brady and Gronk?

Based on last season, it was Gost and Allen. :bricks:

 

[kennyb]

If they gather that Talib is getting top contract offers, they could TAG AND TRADEROO him.

That would be sweet. Get a high 2nd or so.

Kendall Fuller is a similar player...although he too has had an injury history. He's a madman against the run and in space too.

 

[ashley]

Talib was our best defensive player this past year. With him back, adding a physical, tough safety and a little more of a pass rush, I think our defense could be top 5 in the league. I am hoping we can afford to keep him, we saw how our defense responded without him in the last two championship games.

 

[kennyb]

Talib was our best defensive player this past year. With him back, adding a physical, tough safety and a little more of a pass rush, I think our defense could be top 5 in the league. I am hoping we can afford to keep him, we saw how our defense responded without him in the last two championship games.

Well, that's part of the problem. He can't be counted on.

I like Grid's idea of a 2-4-5 or 2-5-4 where the OL never knows which linebackers if any will rush. Our defense is too predictable. Make them not know where the pressure is coming from and it might be a different story. It's easier to block people when you know "these 4 guys will be in this position and rush".

 

[superpats]

Kontra this is ONE of the most intelligent posts i have read ever on here! I am impressed my patriot brother. And im not easily impressed. Wilfork was already declining during 2012. He was still good but some cuts in his armor Became visible! He was handled rather easily by Incognito and completely neutralized by ravens kelechi osemele in Afccg. Single blocker never used to totally handle wilfork! Truth be told big out of shape guys lose talent dominace quickly. Their heart works harder,they have higher cholesterol and they lose burst, endurance,athleticism rapidly. Clogged arteries all factor into decline on the field and by major injury and wilfork is done. Think how it runs in his family and wilfork is done on the football field.

Your right kontra, the same people to read a full post Repeat stupid one liners like... Kontrahigh price free agency is all bad and .... we are building a team not collecting tAlent. They say this like talent is a bad thing. Kontra they DON'T think what it actually means. They say it like talent means team is doomed team and not important,and they will say playing together as a team will overcome all talent. When that's nott true. What it Means is bringing a player aboard who doesn't fit team or is identical to a starter you already have doesn't help. Dumb fans THINK it means that all talented players are selfish And a team of players who work together will defeat selfish talent every time. We know this isnt true. KontraA TALENTED TEAM WINS SUPER BOWLS. THEY also think subpar sentimental hometown favorites like Edelman win Super Bowls. They dont stop,think that all 32 teams are getting paid to win as well. AND to win it all we have to be BETTER THAN EVERYBODY!! Not just the jets and dolphins.

Only thing to reconsider is talib can run with Hilton and shutdown corners are very rare. I bring this up because of Talibs injuries bring so he is cheaper. There are other corners in fa and Talibs injuries puts him at back of other teams wishlist. KontraHe should be affordable now. KontraI would however let all our other fa"s walk. Wendall,Edelman,spikes,and Blount. Then cut Connolly,Wilfork,,Gregory,sopaga,and paycut to ninkovich or cut him as well depending on his salary. Amendola is garunteed so he has to be the. However mayo,mankins caan be restructured to free up capspace. Also perhaps Brady takes another slight paycut restructure to help win another superbowl. Gronk may restructure as well to a slight paycut to help out considering the games he has missed he could want to help win while he has Brady throwing him the ball. KontraWilfork frees up most dollars. After the rest is cut,our team has funds to add any players they want. Justin Blackmon is the best availabile wr for many reasons! He is under contract. His trade value is down however, he has matured and needs mmoney by now! He seriously cant afford to miss more paychecks. And Belichick and Brady have kept others from messing up again along with hatd working winning atmosphere. Most important is Justin Blackmon is a freak pheno talent. He is more Talented than ANY WR in this DRAFTclass. Every ounce as fast and athletic as Lee and as physical as Evans but much faster and athletic with ball skills and hands. Lee and the#1 wr in this draft are lightning fast Athletic and great hands, while a threat to score ANY time they touch the ball. However they are not physically strong in traffic. BLACKMON is every bit as fast and elusive but much stronger ,more physical in traffic to pluck the ball and take it the distance. Evans is big physical but slow. BLACKMON is better ,more dangerous than every wr in this DRAFT! Not to mention none of these guys fall to #29!! How could we not make a pitch for him. He would be a steal!! He will have a rippling effect AND make our whole offense leap like the rams did in one yr. We BETTER that by bringing in a big strong athletic mauler at rg or center to punch these young dominant defenses back in their jaws. Then we take rest of our $$$$on we have from cutting all subpar and over the hill players and focus on our defense rest of the way as they see best players to help our Anemic passrush and defense or more oline help. KontraCu once fat subpar over the hill players are cut and restructures done we can bring in ANY player they want to help our team win now with Brady while he is still elite. Hopefully our wr choice is Justin Blackmon,he is a complete true multi talented #1 and a serious redzone stud in case of Gronkowski injury.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Cap- There are multiple articles out there from Mike Loyko and others on how to restructure and cut your way to about 25-28M under the cap. It can be done while retaining your pieces. Time to go all in IMO is now.

The patriots can get to 28 million under the cap?


That's some serious surgery.

 

[Kontradiction]

I read your post. I didn't reply to it because the premise that we should decide to cut people now just because of money, then go for unknown free agents going for their career contract (this is true of Ward anyway) to spend it, is poor business practice IMO.

I don't need to reply on what style of Lamborgini a player should buy with his contract, if I think he should do other things.

I very much do have an opinion on the premise.

You obviously didn't read the post because you only replied to the FA part of it without acknowledging the draft prospects I mentioned as well. For instance, if Talib signs a team friendly, incentive loaded deal, the team could also use a day two pick on guys like Purifoy or Baptiste (both of whom are taller and physical CB's). I'm not advocating to cut Wilfork just because of money. I'm advocating to cut him because of that combined with the fact that the odds of a man his size coming off of a torn Achilles and recovering are extremely slim.

 

[Huckleberry1]

First of all Justin Blackmon scares the hell out of me, he's a big risk, but that said if they wanted to do a straight up trade for Mallett I would take the chance. I could probably be talked out of this by someone who has done more research on him than i have to this point but if they added a big time WR still on his rookie deal and drafted a TE in the 1st then interior OL would be the only hole left to fill on offense and they could focus everything else on defense.


Same goes for Josh Gordon, he scares the hell out of me but sometimes you have to take chances, and i could see them trading Mallet for him, i just couldn't see Cleveland doing it.



I am staring to think i am getting desperate for that 4th ring, next thing you know i will want Dez Bryant.

 

[Kontradiction]

If they gather that Talib is getting top contract offers, they could TAG AND TRADEROO him.

That would be sweet. Get a high 2nd or so.

Kendall Fuller is a similar player...although he too has had an injury history. He's a madman against the run and in space too.

I see this mentioned all the time. Why would a team try to trade a first rounder for Talib after he gets tagged when they can just wait a year to negotiate a contract with him while keeping the first rounder? I don't see any team dumb enough to take that cheese (not even the Jets) and the Pats would be on the hook for the franchise tag cap hit it takes to keep him for one more year.

 

[Joker]

Kontra this is ONE of the most intelligent posts i have read ever on here! I am impressed my patriot brother. And im not easily impressed. Wilfork was already declining during 2012. He was still good but some cuts in his armor Became visible! He was handled rather easily by Incognito and completely neutralized by ravens kelechi osemele in Afccg. Single blocker never used to totally handle wilfork! Truth be told big out of shape guys lose talent dominace quickly. Their heart works harder,they have higher cholesterol and they lose burst, endurance,athleticism rapidly. Clogged arteries all factor into decline on the field and by major injury and wilfork is done. Think how it runs in his family and wilfork is done on the football field.

Your right kontra, the same people to read a full post Repeat stupid one liners like... Kontrahigh price free agency is all bad and .... we are building a team not collecting tAlent. They say this like talent is a bad thing. Kontra they DON'T think what it actually means. They say it like talent means team is doomed team and not important,and they will say playing together as a team will overcome all talent. When that's nott true. What it Means is bringing a player aboard who doesn't fit team or is identical to a starter you already have doesn't help. Dumb fans THINK it means that all talented players are selfish And a team of players who work together will defeat selfish talent every time. We know this isnt true. KontraA TALENTED TEAM WINS SUPER BOWLS. THEY also think subpar sentimental hometown favorites like Edelman win Super Bowls. They dont stop,think that all 32 teams are getting paid to win as well. AND to win it all we have to be BETTER THAN EVERYBODY!! Not just the jets and dolphins.

Only thing to reconsider is talib can run with Hilton and shutdown corners are very rare. I bring this up because of Talibs injuries bring so he is cheaper. There are other corners in fa and Talibs injuries puts him at back of other teams wishlist. KontraHe should be affordable now. KontraI would however let all our other fa"s walk. Wendall,Edelman,spikes,and Blount. Then cut Connolly,Wilfork,,Gregory,sopaga,and paycut to ninkovich or cut him as well depending on his salary. Amendola is garunteed so he has to be the. However mayo,mankins caan be restructured to free up capspace. Also perhaps Brady takes another slight paycut restructure to help win another superbowl. Gronk may restructure as well to a slight paycut to help out considering the games he has missed he could want to help win while he has Brady throwing him the ball. KontraWilfork frees up most dollars. After the rest is cut,our team has funds to add any players they want. Justin Blackmon is the best availabile wr for many reasons! He is under contract. His trade value is down however, he has matured and needs mmoney by now! He seriously cant afford to miss more paychecks. And Belichick and Brady have kept others from messing up again along with hatd working winning atmosphere. Most important is Justin Blackmon is a freak pheno talent. He is more Talented than ANY WR in this DRAFTclass. Every ounce as fast and athletic as Lee and as physical as Evans but much faster and athletic with ball skills and hands. Lee and the#1 wr in this draft are lightning fast Athletic and great hands, while a threat to score ANY time they touch the ball. However they are not physically strong in traffic. BLACKMON is every bit as fast and elusive but much stronger ,more physical in traffic to pluck the ball and take it the distance. Evans is big physical but slow. BLACKMON is better ,more dangerous than every wr in this DRAFT! Not to mention none of these guys fall to #29!! How could we not make a pitch for him. He would be a steal!! He will have a rippling effect AND make our whole offense leap like the rams did in one yr. We BETTER that by bringing in a big strong athletic mauler at rg or center to punch these young dominant defenses back in their jaws. Then we take rest of our $$$$on we have from cutting all subpar and over the hill players and focus on our defense rest of the way as they see best players to help our Anemic passrush and defense or more oline help. KontraCu once fat subpar over the hill players are cut and restructures done we can bring in ANY player they want to help our team win now with Brady while he is still elite. Hopefully our wr choice is Justin Blackmon,he is a complete true multi talented #1 and a serious redzone stud in case of Gronkowski injury.

OK, I'm stumped. Anyone know where we put the universal space alien translator?

 

[Don_the_patfan]

The patriots can get to 28 million under the cap?


That's some serious surgery.

Well it's doable. Read below on how:

2014 Patriots Off-Season: Salary Cap and Cap Space Breakdown | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2014 NFL Draft

Do I think they'll do all that? No. But it can be done.

 

[Coach42]

Letting Talib go is a dangerous game of chicken. While he certainly has had injury concerns I'm not confident in the Pats ability to draft a replacement. I'm also not so confident that the other free agent options are going to be any cheaper. A Guy like Grimes, who IMO is abetter player, are not going to be easily signed. At this point I think resigning Talib hopefully in the 4-6 mil a year range is the safest option.

 

[BradyToAmendola]

Yeah! Let's get rid of our 2 best players and replace them with draft picks! Great idea! Those never bust or anything! And it's not like we have a finite amount of time before TFB retires!

 

[BelichicksHoodie]

Letting Talib go is a dangerous game of chicken. While he certainly has had injury concerns I'm not confident in the Pats ability to draft a replacement. I'm also not so confident that the other free agent options are going to be any cheaper. A Guy like Grimes, who IMO is abetter player, are not going to be easily signed. At this point I think resigning Talib hopefully in the 4-6 mil a year range is the safest option.

Based on our history of drafting corners in recent years, the last thing I want us to do is play with fire because odds are that we're going to get burned. Obviously is Talib wants too much, you give him the boot. But if it's somewhat reasonable then I feel like we really have no choice but to pay him what he wants. He's an elite cover corner in this league, the fact that we have no one waiting in the wings to replace him, and no one opposite of him, makes it way too risky to let him walk.