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Deathmatch: Julian Edelman v. Alex Mack

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Edelman or Mack

  • Julian Edelman

    Votes: 19 32.8%
  • Alex Mack

    Votes: 39 67.2%
  • Neither. BB will get instant All Pros for those spots via the draft

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    58
  • Poll closed .
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A player as good as Mack is system proof. He has played for four different offensive coordinators and three head coaches in his five seasons, and has done so at a high level.

Adalius Thomas was an excellent player for the Pats in 2007, filling multiple different roles, including inside linebacker which he had never played. He had a tremendous Super Bowl. Thomas didn't work out because of his attitude, not because of any system problems. Shawn Springs was a 34 year old CB who had a knee injury and never played in the NFL again after his one season in New Engand.

The concern with Mack should be his salary cap hit and whether it would prevent in a meaningful way any other major signings from occurring, which would include Edelman. Mack would absolutely flourish here, because he would do so on any team in the NFL.

That's a really good point about how many HCs and OCs Mack has had. This is not a guy who has benefitted from continuity in one scheme/system, and won't be able to adapt.
 
Interesting that it's running 3:1 in favor of Mack right now...
 
Interesting that it's running 3:1 in favor of Mack right now...

Did you expect differently? First, there's no cap difference listed. I'd rather have Edelman for 4 million AAV than Mack for 10 million AAV... but since it's not in the OP, I'm not factoring any big difference in.

You're picking between a guy (Mack) who's in the elite tier of his position against a guy who's had one really good season. Edelman was 4th in catches this year - great! - but 21st in YARDS, and there were 29 receivers with more TDs. He's not a top-15 NFL receiver, and I doubt he's going to climb above his 2013 stats, honestly.

Love the guy. Love what he brings to the PR game. Love his attitude. But his ceiling isn't there.
 
So, Connolly ($3m) + Amendola-sized contract (call it $5m) =

Solder
Mankins
Mack
Cannon
Vollmer

Amendola*
Dobson
Thompkins
Boyce
bargain basement WR

Gronk
Hooman
TE draftee

?




*Or Amendola as a 'post-june' cut, with the bullet bitten in both 2014 and 2015 so that Edelman can take his salary slot (?)


Cousins, Looking at the "talent" that is listed here above is depressing. The point is we did NOT have enough talent around TB. This is long winded, sorry!

Why is it Cousins on this forum completely ignore the fact that the 36 year old QB can't wait for those beloved "Draft" picks to mature? He was dealt a bad hand trying to form Dobson, Kendrick and Boyce along with some replacement parts like Amendola and Hooman (agree Gronk was hurt but there was no guarantee with his other injuries he was recovering from in 2012 that he was going to be a factor Day one of 2013 or at all). I have said that for years and this is what I meant. It takes time with the kids.

This is like owning a Ferrari (TB) and putting bald tires on it. When it goes straight, good, no problem but if there is a curve watch out Ferrari or not.

Don't expect a massive up-tick with these guys Dobson, Kendrick and Boyce in 2014. A little would be great. 2105 more so but an older TB.

Therefor I believe that Edelman will get even better in 2014 and maybe not so productive on another Team. It is a good marriage for him here and if he can stay healthy he brings the kicking game too for another good season.

BUT.........

BB's best WRs he has had are those he has traded for. Not Draft picks other than Branch. I say just one of those three kids becomes a "good" player, not elite. This was such as the case of Givens. The rest my bet is two are JAGS. It is interesting to see which one takes the next step.

As far as I am concerned, if Edelman can be resigned, and one of these guys betters himself, you STILL need a #1 receiver and a Starting TE. Gronk is a luxury if he is back in good form in 2014.

Now let's get to the O-Line. Mack would be great and you can afford to put Cannon at LG because Mack can help out.

Here is the litmus test. If Mack can give Brady just one more second to throw, doesn't that improve the passing game massively? Don't the above parts and pieces WRs get better because they have an extra second to shake loose? Brady had an off year with WR infancy and a O Line that did not protect well at all. Look at his sacks.

I'd have to go with Mack because he can make a difference in the passing game. If Edelman walks, you can take another run at Sanders who might even be a cheaper option but PLEASE no more rookie WR experiments.

I have mentioned both of these moves in prior Threads. Here is some idea, although not perfect to get some talent. Frees up money.

We have
1. S Adrian Wilson ($672k)

2. Tommy Kelly ($1.74mm)-redo at $1mm?

3. Steve Gregory ($1.86mm)

4. Isaac Sopoaga ($2.01mm)

5. Dan Connolly ($2.51mm)

6. Vince Wilfork ($7.51mm) – redo at $3.75mm?

$11,542,000
gained of players to be cut or adjusted.

Amendola cut might gain another $1.2m but just this year

These players would make the Pats better in 2014. This is about their ask and some are trades so bear with me Cousins as I continue:

DE Michael Johnson $7 m (WAS OF INTEREST IN 2013)
Alex Mack $6.5m
Jared Allen $6.5m
Talib $5m
E. Sanders $3m (WAS OF INTEREST IN 2013)
Edelman $3m
WR Andre Johnson $4.5m
TE Owen Daniels $2m
Blount 1.75m
NT Terrance Cody $1mm
Antrel Rolle $4.5m
Justin Blackmon $1.75m

My opinion on who helps the Pats. You might differ but this is for fun.

If Mack is a priority there must by compromises. He will cost at least that $6.5mm. I think Talib is a must. To replace him is a rookie(!!!!) or a top vet is about the same $.

I would like to keep Edelman in the slot because he is great in the kicking game.

I would resign Blount and trade Ridley. Ridley has squatters rights to BB's dog house anyway. To who? How about the NYG for S Antrelle Rolle next to McCourty. BB does not use SS and FS rules. There is a few bucks saved on Ridley and he would be what the Giants need. They are discussing Stevie Brown anyway because the Rolle CAP number. He would have to adjust his money here.

As rumors have Mallet going to the Texans, Let's play there. They say a second pick form the Texans might do it but how does this sound? The 32 year old WR Andre Johnson who has a realistic CAP of $4.5m in 2014 (sorry Larry F.), the broken leg recovered TE Owen Daniels who is a superb move TE only 31 and he should restructure or will be a CAP cut there and the Texans 2nd round pick for Mallett, our first, second an third round picks and a WR (possible Amendola for continuity or Boyce or Kendricks)? Johnson is still a stud and #1 WR. Over 100 catches from a crap QB core. The Texans second round is close to a first so no "BB would never do that".

My last kink would be WR Justin Blackmon from the Jags. The Jags would take a pick. This kid has as much talent as any NFL WR. He had alcoholic problems. WR Cris Carter is in the Hall of Fame after overcoming them when he left the Eagles for the Vikings. Pretty good comparison. Blackmon is only 24. Take a shot on a Team friendly deal. A pick is a luxury to the Jags for him. He has more talent than Dobson, Kendrick or Boyce.

On Defense, we are still pourus against the run and VW might not round into form for the whole season or much of it.Terrance Cody was superb at Bama. He has had good coaching in Baltimore and he is still young at 25. He has underachieved. He would be a great talent to work under Vince and between he and Ngata, Cody can learn from the best. I think a worthy inexpensive choice to the DTs like the Bennets or Meltons of the FA market, alternative.

We need more pass pressure. Jared Allen on a "ring" deal works for me. BB also took a shot at DE Michael Johnson of the Bengals last year. About the same $. We need one of these two without question. Allen and Jones as your outside guys and how about this experiment. Nink in the ILB slot? Now you have flexible rotation with Hightower, Buchanon etc.

We are about $10mm under CAP and perhaps another $15m saved here from Cuts and re-dos (approx>). We can fit most for around $30mm. Not all though.

It is just a thought but Talib back with a player like Allen or Johnson on the edge , S Antrel Rolle in a Trade the the Giants would consider if Stevie Johnson is the direction they go at Safety, and Maybe a young Cody might be all you need on Defense, but think of the offense.

Our Red Zone receptions were down after Gronk. A center piece in Mack (he helps the passing game) , Johnson, Blackmon, Edelman (if he stays) and one of the kids say Dobson, with a very talented TE in Daniels and add a second round pick like Amaro at TE who can play slot as well. Now Gronk comes back down the stretch.

So I guess I want Mack. If we can get a combination of the above mentioned, maybe not so much Edelman then, but think of the possibilities for TB to beat Mannings new records! And our Defense gets better.
DW Toys
 
For me this just isn't even close. I keep Edelman. The amount of money Mack would cost pretty much handcuffs us for the rest of the offseason. I think there is a much better chance that the league views Edelman as a "system" guy and he becomes much more affordable. While Mack is a tremendous player who would certainly improve our line I think there is more cost efficient ways to improve the C spot and certainly more important positions that need our attention ( TE, DE, CB, DT)
 
For me this just isn't even close. I keep Edelman. The amount of money Mack would cost pretty much handcuffs us for the rest of the offseason. I think there is a much better chance that the league views Edelman as a "system" guy and he becomes much more affordable. While Mack is a tremendous player who would certainly improve our line I think there is more cost efficient ways to improve the C spot and certainly more important positions that need our attention ( TE, DE, CB, DT)

There's hatred against Edelman by the Amendola lovers.
 
My last kink would be WR Justin Blackmon from the Jags. The Jags would take a pick. This kid has as much talent as any NFL WR. He had alcoholic problems. WR Cris Carter is in the Hall of Fame after overcoming them when he left the Eagles for the Vikings. Pretty good comparison. Blackmon is only 24. Take a shot on a Team friendly deal. A pick is a luxury to the Jags for him. He has more talent than Dobson, Kendrick or Boyce.

Dealing with addiction is a very tricky thing, unless I knew if he’d actually hit rock bottom and how much he was willing to change I wouldn’t want to use a 7th round pick on him. That would mean him agreeing to a restructured contract with no money guaranteed and also being on a 0 strikes program.

If he did that I’d give the Jags a conditional late round pick for 2015.
 
Dealing with addiction is a very tricky thing, unless I knew if he’d actually hit rock bottom and how much he was willing to change I wouldn’t want to use a 7th round pick on him. That would mean him agreeing to a restructured contract with no money guaranteed and also being on a 0 strikes program.

If he did that I’d give the Jags a conditional late round pick for 2015.

I've seen Blackmon personally at the bars several times around here. Some times, he's dead sober and is drinking water. Other times, he's been absolutely obliterated. When he first moved here, I saw him drunkenly stumble into his car, peel out, and drive off.
 
An offensive line of:

LT - Solder
LG - Mankins
C - Mack
RG - Cannon
RT - Vollmer

would probably be the best offensive line in the NFL.

I know. Having seen this makes Mack my #1 FA target. Bring in an additional big bodied receiving TE and this offense is well on it's way to being 'fixed'.
 
I would pick Alex Mack an all pro C every time but the brown will TAG him and I see the pats offering Edelman something like 3 or 4 million a year and let him walk if he does not take it no way near the 7 or 8 million Mack will get if the Browns even let him hit the market
 
I've seen Blackmon personally at the bars several times around here. Some times, he's dead sober and is drinking water. Other times, he's been absolutely obliterated. When he first moved here, I saw him drunkenly stumble into his car, peel out, and drive off.

That’s very interesting. It’s very common that the alcohol/drugs/etc are not the root problem, though we typically approach the issue as though they are, people often use them to cope with or avoid something else that’s bothering them, and that’s what you need to address, if you can do that the need for the substance goes away.

I saw The Biggest Loser recently and there was a woman whose 5yr old son died and she then again a ton of weight, she tried all sorts of diets and exercise programs and failed every time. IMO it’s completely worthless to bother with any of that, she needs to resolve her issues over her son’s death before any meaningful change can occur.
 
A potential Blackmon trade is interesting. He would be a top 10 WR with Brady. His contract is very reasonable and he still has two years left on his rookie deal.
 
I love Edelman and what he has brought to the Patriots and want him to be resigned here ... but Alex Mack would be my pick. Money and cap are the only concerns from the Patriots point of view.

The addition of a quality center improves the whole offensive line from left to right. The passing game improves, the running game improves and there are more viable options available at WR in the Draft and Free Agency than there are quality centers.

And for a pocket passer who is adept as Brady evading the outside rush, being able to step up in the pocket would be huge for Brady as well as his overall confidence in his O-line. And the ability to run up the gut against your opponent when teams challenge the Patriots run game will only open up other facets of the offense and the knock-on effect that would have e.g. play action etc.
 
I would pick Alex Mack an all pro C every time but the brown will TAG him and I see the pats offering Edelman something like 3 or 4 million a year and let him walk if he does not take it no way near the 7 or 8 million Mack will get if the Browns even let him hit the market

As I understand it, if they tag him they are effectively paying him LT money because the franchise tag doesn't differentiate between types of linemen. That seems excessive, even for a center as good as Mack.
 
I don’t think it comes down to Mack or Edelman anyway, I think if we wanted Mack we could make it work.

2013
  • Mankins – $10,000,000
  • Connolly – $3,400,000
  • Vollmer – $3,000,000
  • Solder – $2,329,225
  • Wendell – $1,015,000
  • Svitek – $840,000
  • Cannon – $637,687
  • Green – $318,000
  • Total – $21,473,245

2014
  • Mankins – $10,500,000
  • Vollmer – $3,750,000
  • Solder – $2,717,429
  • Connolly (cut) – $1,083,334
  • Cannon – $743,968
  • Total – $18,794,731

If we cut Connolly, let Wendell, Svitek and Green walk we $2,678,514 right in cap differential right there and if we can fee up $2-$3 million by reworking Mankins deal than we could sign Mack without issue.
 
As I understand it, if they tag him they are effectively paying him LT money because the franchise tag doesn't differentiate between types of linemen. That seems excessive, even for a center as good as Mack.

That is correct it would cost them $11.6 to retain Mack with the tag.

• QB- $16.2M
• RB-$9.1M
• WR-$11.6M
• TE-$6.8M
• OL-$11.2M
• DE-$12.6M
• DT-$9.2M
• LB-$11M
• CB-$11.3M
• S-$8.1M
• K/P-$3.4M
 
That is correct it would cost them $11.6 to retain Mack with the tag.

• QB- $16.2M
• RB-$9.1M
• WR-$11.6M
• TE-$6.8M
• OL-$11.2M
• DE-$12.6M
• DT-$9.2M
• LB-$11M
• CB-$11.3M
• S-$8.1M
• K/P-$3.4M
-- Heading into 2014, the Browns have $95.7 million in cap space committed to players, which means they have $40 million in cap space to use on roster bonuses, draft picks, free agents and restructured deals.
A look at some of Cleveland Browns' salary cap numbers - ESPN

Provided he wants to stay in Cleveland he probably will they have the money to do it.
 
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