Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

[patchick]

There aren't any reports of the team ganging up on Martin more than anyone else. For instance, it's been widely reported from within Miami's locker room that most of their players (particularly within the OL) have been "victims" of that lunch room prank. Martin was the only one to flip out about it.

Totally possible, it could be a matter of different perceptions/reactions to the same situation. I'm just thinking that a "prank" can come across very differently if you suspect that the perpetrators genuinely don't like or accept you...which apparently they didn't. (EDIT: which actually puts MORE pressure on that player to give in to demands for money, etc.)

 

[Froob]

Sounds like there's a lot more to the story than I thought. I'll wait til more info comes out before I completely villianize Incognito. Apparently Martin was playing the voicemail in the locker room and laughing about it.

 

[upstater1]

Wait, it sounds like you are criticizing the way black people feel about racism toward black people, and putting yourself out as an expert on the black comminuity. If you are in fact African American and live in a black community that may be a valid insight however I'm not sure how it qualifies you to criticize how the Miami Dolphin players feel about their individual teammates. If you are not, why go there?

You're confused. I never said anything about how some blacks feel about racism toward the black community. I think it seems evident the black players don't feel Incognito is racist. Instead, I'm writing about bigotry of some blacks toward blacks that pass (like Martin) or who are educated. When a black guy says Martin isn't black (why? Cultural differences? White father or mother? Education? Slang? I don't know) then absolutely I can only judge that as bigoted and wrong. This attitude essentializes black people as those who either have no white blood in them, or who act a certain way, or who don't go to Stanford.

 

[Deus Irae]

Essentializing black people again. Man you are being very racist here. Black people aren't the same everywhere. Many of them NEVER feel cheery at being called a n-----.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. I'm the one saying "It's not always...", which inherently requires that not all black people (in this case a child of mixed parentage) take this stuff the same at all times. Trying to spin that around on me and brand me as a racist is just pathetic crap on your part, and I'm not going to let you lie your way into it.

I've had the same position on this incident from the beginning: Wait for the evidence to all come out and avoid making assumptions about things without context. Your post was just another post where someone couldn't be bothered to do either.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sports attorney David Cornwell has been hired to help advise and represent Jonathan Martin and his family

https://twitter.com/JayGlazer/status/398473666809184256

 

[Huckleberry1]

Bullygate, just like Spygate and Bountygate before it, everyone was pretty much doing it but 1 team takes it too far and becomes the poster child for it. Like it's predecessors it's more complex than the media gives it credit for, and more widespread, but someone has to pay the price for everyone to move on.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not doing anything of the sort. I'm the one saying "It's not always...", which inherently requires that not all black people (in this case a child of mixed parentage) take this stuff the same at all times. Trying to spin that around on me and brand me as a racist is just pathetic crap on your part, and I'm not going to let you lie your way into it.

I've had the same position on this incident from the beginning: Wait for the evidence to all come out and avoid making assumptions about things without context. Your post was just another post where someone couldn't be bothered to do either.

Man, this is what you wrote:

See, the problem here is that you're trying to force a highly feminized and white(i.e. mainstream) viewpoint onto a very masculine and blended-race culture that's nothing like it is down by the water cooler at the local accountant's office. You're assuming absolutes that don't exist.

Though I have never been in an NFL locker rooms (and have been in many others as a player) I could be from Timbuktu and still realize that no matter what goes on in there, players saying a guy wasn't black (for any number of reasons) or assuming anyone can use racial epithets in any way they wish is absolutely bigoted (the former) and racist (the latter).

 

[Deus Irae]

Man, this is what you wrote:


Though I have never been in an NFL locker rooms (and have been in many others as a player) I could be from Timbuktu and still realize that no matter what goes on in there, players saying a guy wasn't black (for any number of reasons) or assuming anyone can use racial epithets in any way they wish is absolutely bigoted (the former) and racist (the latter).

So you realize nothing, then, and tried to spin me as a racist because you don't know what the hell you're talking about and haven't bothered paying attention to what's gone on in this thread.

How embarrassing for you to be caught attempting such a pathetic maneuver.

 

[Fencer]

You seem to think my comments are about race. If you'd actually read my posts, you'd know otherwise, but in a fast-moving thread like this one, your failure to do so is quite forgivable.

As for my conjectures as to what goes on in the Patriots locker room, I'm sure the news reports and suchlike that I read overlap heavily with the ones you do.

And I would bet a lot of money they weren't surprised that he did. It sounded like the way he communicates to his teammates, which is not that out of whack with many lockerrooms IMO.


I personally feel that the 'words hurt' approach is overused, but I recongize many people disagree with that.
In this case, again, I think you have to know the relationship to understand the intent as well as the feelings of the target.
I am far from convinced that this voice mail, or other interactions with Incognito are the real reasons Martin walked away.


Again, IMO, you need to know the relationship. Hearing someone call a person the N word means something different to me, to you, to African Americans, to white people who are the minority in an organization where blacks are the majority (NFL teams).





Why? That implies you know them personally, which you certainly do not.



Again, on what basis?



That actually could be interpreted as a racist comment.

 

[Deus Irae]

Another interesting detail -- I'm told one of the players Jonathan Martin voted for to serve on the leadership council was Richie Incognito.

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/398484186098462720

Martin told teammates who he voted for, and others in the building saw the ballot. Can see the sway the OL had on team -- 2 guys on the LC.

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/398485231058956288

 

[Ring 6]

You're confused.

No I am not at all confused.

I never said anything about how some blacks feel about racism toward the black community.

You said this:

I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying they harbor bigoted notions about blackness, and this is a controversial topic in the black community.

I asked how you are an expert on what is controversial in the black community and how you know what feelings the black Dolphin players harbored.

I think it seems evident the black players don't feel Incognito is racist. Instead, I'm writing about bigotry of some blacks toward blacks that pass (like Martin) or who are educated.

How could you have any clue about this?
You appear to be claiming that the black players acted in a bigoted fashion toward Martin. There is no evidence whatsoever of that.

When a black guy says Martin isn't black (why? Cultural differences? White father or mother? Education? Slang? I don't know) then absolutely I can only judge that as bigoted and wrong. This attitude essentializes black people as those who either have no white blood in them, or who act a certain way, or who don't go to Stanford.

Or whose name starts with M?
There is no requirement based upon race that Martin fit in with players of black descent. The fact that he is white, black, half black, yellow, green or purple is irrelevant to that.
If players didnt like Martin, they didn't like him because of who he is not what he is.
It is totally ridiculous to be arguing that the black players are racist because they took Incognito the white man as one of their own and shunned Martin because he was half white.

Your thought process is actually the racist view.
If you put me in a series of rooms with one black person and one white person, in some rooms I will like or identify better with the white person and in other I will like or identify better with the black person.
Your perspective says that half the time I would be a racist and half the time I wouldn't, and based on these comments I'm not sure if you would base that on me prefering the one who looks like me or not.
People are people. To view everything that happens to them as motivated solely by race, is the true racist viewpoint.

 

[Deus Irae]

Also, had a Dolphins official text me on @theMMQB first-person piece by Lydon Murtha (Richie Incognito never bullied Jonathan Martin, Lydon Murtha says | The MMQB with Peter King …) His response, "Spot on".

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/398487156814909440

 

[Kontradiction]

We're operating under two different sets of information. Salguero said they thought Martin wasn't black.

The information I'm operating under has been widely reported. But you're still not getting it, so there's no point in even discussing it further.

And Salguero also reported that much of what the Dolphins are saying was prepared for them by Philbin. Salguero focused on the Murtha story, the Ireland story, and on Ellerbe's claims, and he said they showed the Dolphins have circled the wagons, because taken all together, the claim that the Dolphins didn't know that Martin felt bullied by Incognito was hard to justify. You could only believe it if you believe that Ireland never spoke to Philbin about what Martin's agent told him, or that--against what Murtha said--the Phins coaches were totally unaware of what was going on. Salguero thinks the Phins players and management knew Martin was not happy with his relationship with Incognito and they ignored it.

That seems to fly in the face of everything the players themselves actually said, which is that Philbin wanted them mum on the situation and they spoke up anyway to come to the defense of their teammate and friend, who they felt was being unfairly targeted by Martin and the media. But you're looking for any way possible to justify your position at this point because you're extremely offended by the use of a word, even though that word by all reports coming out since the media had access to the locker room yesterday was used in hopes of busting a teammate and friend's balls. Not to mention, the call was also cut short in it's printed version.

 

[Ring 6]

You seem to think my comments are about race. If you'd actually read my posts, you'd know otherwise, but in a fast-moving thread like this one, your failure to do so is quite forgivable.

I read only this one (or should say recall only this one) and my response was limited to its content.

As for my conjectures as to what goes on in the Patriots locker room, I'm sure the news reports and suchlike that I read overlap heavily with the ones you do.

But I put no stock in those reports giving me any insight into the real attitudes and personalities of those players. A year ago someone might have included Hernandez in that statement.

 

[Ring 6]

Totally possible, it could be a matter of different perceptions/reactions to the same situation. I'm just thinking that a "prank" can come across very differently if you suspect that the perpetrators genuinely don't like or accept you...which apparently they didn't. (EDIT: which actually puts MORE pressure on that player to give in to demands for money, etc.)

I think there is a lot of room for considering that Martin was not a 'target' but a guy who just didn't fit in and was more ostracized than pranked.

 

[DaBronxPats14]

So Miami's General Manager Jeff Ireland Suggested Martin Punch Incognito.
Hmmm Stay Classy Miami!

Jeff Ireland of Miami Dolphins suggested Jonathan Martin physically confront Richie Incognito - ESPN

 

[Fencer]

But I put no stock in those reports giving me any insight into the real attitudes and personalities of those players. A year ago someone might have included Hernandez in that statement.

I was commenting about behavior, and we have a lot of data on that.

 

[PP2]

Bullygate, just like Spygate and Bountygate before it, everyone was pretty much doing it but 1 team takes it too far and becomes the poster child for it. Like it's predecessors it's more complex than the media gives it credit for, and more widespread, but someone has to pay the price for everyone to move on.

I don't think it's going to end up being "bullygate." If anything, it seems that the "bullying" is a scapegoat for what really happened.

 

[upstater1]

No I am not at all confused.

You are still confused.

How could you have any clue about this?
You appear to be claiming that the black players acted in a bigoted fashion toward Martin. There is no evidence whatsoever of that.

Salguero said the black players told him that Martin was not black, that Incognito was an honorary black. Really now, you have to be an expert on the black community to know there are issues with passing, issues with skin tone, issues with middle class and poor blacks, as though many white Americans who have daily interactions with people from the black community are unaware of this? As I said, even if I were from the moon and never met a black person in my life, I would know that saying that a black man wasn't really black was totally bigoted. It's astounding to me that you would even question that and ask for my dissertation into the psychology of the black community in order to say that.

There is no requirement based upon race that Martin fit in with players of black descent. The fact that he is white, black, half black, yellow, green or purple is irrelevant to that.

What are you arguing anyway? You're making stuff up now. Who said anything about fitting in? It's clear I've said multiple times he DIDN'T fit in. What I am saying to you is that it's up to him as to how he identifies as a black man.

It is totally ridiculous to be arguing that the black players are racist because they took Incognito the white man as one of their own and shunned Martin because he was half white.

I didn't call them racist. I called them bigoted. Big difference.

Your thought process is actually the racist view.

No, I am entirely confident that yours is, because it essentializes blacks as being only one thing. You'd have absolutely no right at all to tell Martin how black he is. And if this is how you go about things, determining levels of blackness, that's racist.

 

[Kontradiction]

So Miami's General Manager Jeff Ireland Suggested Martin Punch Incognito.
Hmmm Stay Classy Miami!

Jeff Ireland of Miami Dolphins suggested Jonathan Martin physically confront Richie Incognito - ESPN

And that's exactly what Martin should have done if he thought he was being unfairly bullied. But the more that comes out on this, the more I'm beginning to think that Martin, psychologically, just was not cut out for the NFL.