Off Season Misspent

[hovis]

BB took a bunch of fliers on some well-known has been's, never was's, and wannabe's. They were calculated risks, and none of them panned out. Alot've them seemed like good ideas at the time.

But do you think they'd be better off with these guys on the roster?


Gaffney's the only one confusing me....

 

[JackBauer]

So you think it was a good use of are time and resources? Can I ask why in your opinion?

I think giving a bunch of marginal players an opportunity to make the roster isn't a big deal, either way.

The book isn't finished on Branch or Gaffney
The Fanene situation was a mistake, no doubt. Missed medical condition by the training staff? I'm still not sure what exactly happened there
Spencer Larsen got injured. So what? What did we lose, exactly?
Tony Fiammetta had a personal family issue. So we're indicting BB for not being Miss Cleo?
Bobby Carpenter was a marginal player who didn't make it. So what? What did we lose, exactly?
Ditto Stallworth
Robert Gallery retired. Boo on BB for not predicting the future
Dan Koppen is done. Again, I don't see the issue
Anthony Gonzalez: see Carpenter and Stallworth
Will Allen got injured
Joseph Addai: see above
James Ihedigbo: marginal ST player gets pushed off the roster. You're having a sad because we upgraded a position of chronic weakness last season?
Chad Johnson: not sure why he's included on this list

I think the above is simply reflective of the fact that we have a deep and talented roster this season. You're whining about this, why?

 

[Raymond]

I would of brought made a move for a Salas earlier, I would of gave Rivera the snaps that were wasted on Carpenter earlier in the season...

To name a few.

Like I said I am a huge BB fan but it just seems like a lot of wasted money and reps.

The rosters were at 90 men. It is inevitable to happen. BB is the type who leaves no stone unturned when he's looking for his roster. In his mind it is never really complete. Not even the night before the Super Bowl.

There is some player unknown to you ( and me) that he may pick up six weeks from now. Should he have done this yesterday?

 

[Deus Irae]

Carpenter had a workout with the Chiefs, FWIW.

 

[Sciz]

I would of brought made a move for a Salas earlier, I would of gave Rivera the snaps that were wasted on Carpenter earlier in the season...

To name a few.

Like I said I am a huge BB fan but it just seems like a lot of wasted money and reps.

Aka, be psychic enough to know that none of the WRs would work out as anticipated and that Rivera would beat out Carpenter?

 

[mayoclinic]

What's the big deal, you sign 90 players so you can pick the best 53. It is what it is. Those left earned it.

This.

I strongly disagree with the OP, which I think reflects a lack of understanding of how the Pats do business and run their organization. Obviously, none of us has a crystal ball into BB's thinking, but we've discussed some of what apparently drives the personnel and organizational moves:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...uncertainty-theory-how-pats-do-business.html

I think a lot of the Pats offseason moves fall into the "uncertainty theory" model. Sign a lot of guys and hedge your bets. Keep your options open. Let guys compete, and assume that competition will build the strongest roster regardless of who is left standing at the end. None of the guys listed was signed with the expectation that he would be a foundational player, or even an obvious starter.

Let's look at some of the positional shake out:

- QB: Hoyer regressed, Mallett progressed, and the team moves on.
- RB/FB: Addai was a stopgap option in case the youngsters didn't progress. He didn't pan out, and the young kids have looked good so far, including UDFA Bolden. I'm ok with that. I never really wanted Addai on the team, anyway. Neither Larsen nor Fiammetta was ever a lock to make the roster.
- TE: Gronk's injury status was still unknown. He looks healthy, and he and AHern are now signed long term. It's too early to judge the Fells and Shiancoe signings.
- WR: Branch, Ochocinco, Gaffney, Stallworth and Gonzalez were all brought in to compete, but none was considered a lock, and it was assumed that at most only 2 would make the team. Lloyd has looked good so far. The team hasn't necessarily burned bridges with Garffney or Branch at this point.
- OL: Gallery was an insurance policy against Mankins not starting the season or Waters retiring. No one expected that he would decide his body can't take anymore. Koppen was never a lock, and if Wendell, McDonald and Thomas beat him out then it makes the roster stronger, younger and more versatile IMHO.
- DL: Fanene was obviously a big disappointment, but Forston was apparently a nice surprise, and Brace as outperformed expectations.
- DE/OLB: Scott made the team. Chandler Jones looks to be a huge addition.
- LB: Dane Fletcher getting hurt was a bummer. No one would have predicted that Mike Rivera would have beaten out Bobby Carpenter, Jeff Tarpinian and Niko Koutouvides, but he did. Are you questioning BB's off-season moves, or his ultimate decision on who makes the roster?
- DB: Same as with LB. Marquice Cole made the team. I'm not crying that Alfonzo Dennard and Nate Ebner beat out 33 year old Will Allen and journeyman James Ihedigbo.

The Pats hedged their bets, and so far the youngsters appear to have outperformed many of the vets. We should be happy, not bemoaning a "lost opportunity" from the offseason. The purpose of the majority of the FA signings was to provide veteran depth, training camp competition, and above all security to not have to rely on rookies developing. Those signings appear to have met those goals, regardless of the ultimate roster outcome.

 

[Patstopia]

I would of brought made a move for a Salas earlier, I would of gave Rivera the snaps that were wasted on Carpenter earlier in the season...

To name a few.

Like I said I am a huge BB fan but it just seems like a lot of wasted money and reps.

If BB had the hindsight that you have, I am sure he would do things differently. But since he doesn't, he has to have a competition to determine who he wants to keep. I would rather he sign 20 and keep 4 then sign 4 and keep them regardless of how they perform.

 

[fester]

We paid Koppen and Branch they were both FA. I understand the logic of veteran insurance but the it seems like we could of utilized the preseason reps a lot better to develop the actual team.

That logic only works if in April you know, or Belicheck knows that his two cheap veteran insurance policies at positions of uncertainty won't be needed or can't beat out the competition. (In my mind, these two things are logically equivalent but some people disagree. ) Koppen cost the Patriots 350K in signing bonus or .3% of their salary cap allocation for 2012. Actually, .15% of the salary cap as half the bonus is allocated to next year's cap. Branch had an even smaller signing bonus hit.

These are cap cheap insurance policies.

Now if your argument is that Koppen taking reps and a roster spot during training camp kept an UDFA or a 3rd year street FA from developing, that is plausible, but pretty weak. If Koppen was abducted by aliens, then the Patriots would have an extra spot to sign a player that they deemed not worth one of their 90 slots. Sure, there is uncertainty in evaluation, but the odds are greatly against that big of a surprise.

Insurance was cheap in these cases, and I think it is a cost and pattern the Patriots are willing to engage in every year, and now more so than previously because of the expanded camp roster.

 

[ATippett56]

I know every team cuts players but I look at this list of players. These are not UDFA or even younger NFL players that could have untapped ability. These guys are all veterans with plenty of tape and reports on them to show what they could do for us.

I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.

Matt Light - Retired
Robert Gallery - Retired
Will Allen - Injured Reserve
Spencer Larsen - Injured Reserve
Tony Fiammetta - Exempt (family/personal reasons)

Official Website of the New England Patriots | Team - Players

Jonathan Fanene is the only player I seriously question on your original list. If someone within the organization missed a medical issue, shame on them.

 

[DaBruinz]

Deion Branch
Jabar Gaffney (Missed most of pre-season with an injury
Jonathan Fanene (Hid an injury from the team)
Spencer Larsen (Got injured during camp)
Tony Flammatta (Had a personal issue come up. Is on the Reserve EXEMPT list so doesn't count against them. )
Bobby Carpenter
Donta Stallworth
Robert Gallery
Dan Koppen
Anthony Gonzalez (was cut before camp. didn't waste any camp time)
Will Allen (Got injured towards the end of camp)
Joseph Addia (was cut before camp. didn't waste any camp time)
James Iheldigbo (Ihedigbo got beat out by Ebner. Ebner is looking to be a great find)
Chad Johnson

I know every team cuts players but I look at this list of players. These are not UDFA or even younger NFL players that could have untapped ability. These guys are all veterans with plenty of tape and reports on them to show what they could do for us.

I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.

When did BB become clairvoyant? Seriously, how the hell is BB supposed to know that Fanene was going to hide chronic arthritis? How was BB supposed to know that Gaffney, Larseon and Allen were going to get injured? How was BB supposed to know that Fiametta was going to have a personal situation come up so dire that he needed to take a year off from football.

The others, are you really complaining that veterans got beat out by younger players?? Think about that for a minute..

 

[DaBruinz]

I think the one that raised this question in my mind was the Salas move. I like the move but why didn't we make it earlier and not waste the money and reps we did. I really don't think the Rams were holding him with a ransom.

And then today the Tennant cut what a waste of time and we could of used are waiver claim on someone else.

Do you even think before you post?

With Salas, it was a matter of him not clicking with the new coaching staff. Did you stop to think that MAYBE the new coaching staff in St. Louis wanted to see if Salas could fit in before shipping him off?

As fort Tennant, how do you even know there was another player the Patriots might have wanted to claim off waivers? And, don't you think they would have if they had wanted to? They are allowed to claim more than one player.

For all the stating that you trust in BB, you sure whine about the moves he's making.

 

[lamafist]

Ah, yes, all of those "wasted reps" taken up by players who don't make it on the final roster. How dare BB squander all that time, when clearly he should have voluntarily declined to expand the off-season roster from 80 to 90, like all the truly smart coaches in the league did.

Wait, nobody actually did that? :bricks:

 

[mgteich]

You know the answer. The OP would have only signed players who were going to make the final roster.

What would you have done differently?

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Additionally, some of these guys might still be round in 4-8 weeks. If someone is hurt, they'd be a much better option than someone who doesn't know the system. With 6 onthe PS, you can't cover every position so BB builds knowledge/shadow roster this way and players have a chance to make the team.

 

[Sciz]

Also, I think it's awfully ironic that a thread about wasting time and money on veterans was started by the same guy who wanted to sign Ernie Sims.

 

[New England Expat]

Although I disagree with the OP, I think people are being a little too harsh on him. It is too early to judge how successfull the offeason personnel changes are. It's probably fair to say that it was a successfull offseason in some areas, ( Draft, DE/OLB, Secondary) flawed in other areas such as the OLine.

The offensive line is the only area we are clearly worse off than last year. We cant exempt the coaching staff from this fact. I beleive in the end, theyll pull it together, Wendell may be more legit than we think, especially knowing he made it over Koppen.

 

[Off The Grid]

I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.

And then today the Tennant cut what a waste of time and we could of used are waiver claim on someone else.

I understand the logic of veteran insurance but the it seems like we could of utilized the preseason reps a lot better to develop the actual team.

So you think it was a good use of are time and resources?

I would of brought made a move for a Salas earlier, I would of gave Rivera the snaps that were wasted on Carpenter earlier in the season...

Are: Verb ~ present indicative plural and 2nd person singular of "be."

Our: Pronoun ~ a form of the possessive case of "we." Our team is going to win.

...And as long as I'm playing Grammar Nazi...

Of: Preposition ~ 1. (used to indicate distance or direction from, separation, deprivation, etc.)

Have: #25 ~ Auxiliary Verb ~ (used with a past participle to form perfect tenses): It would have been an enjoyable party if he hadn't felt downcast.

Dictionary.com

I'm beggin' ya, dude.

 

[ClevTrev]

Deion Branch
Jabar Gaffney
Jonathan Fanene
Spencer Larsen
Tony Flammatta
Bobby Carpenter
Donta Stallworth
Robert Gallery
Dan Koppen
Anthony Gonzalez
Will Allen
Joseph Addia
James Iheldigbo
Chad Johnson

I know every team cuts players but I look at this list of players. These are not UDFA or even younger NFL players that could have untapped ability. These guys are all veterans with plenty of tape and reports on them to show what they could do for us.

I am a huge BB fan and supporter but the amount of time put into these players by are coaches, and money lost by ownership really does not seem to be the best uses of are resources.

I believe this is called tryouts. Players number 90 at the start of training camp, and 37 have to be cut by the start of the season. Rookies and UDFAs count every bit as much as vets and FAs. If the team stays static by keeping all vets, trouble is near. Should be a fun season.

 

[The Scrizz]

Football players get old fast. They get injured, they lose a step. Did you see his veteran hit percentage last year? Waters, Carter, Anderson all for cheap money.

Were you complaining last year or do you expect every vet to take cheap money and be Pro-Bowlers? This is the point of having depth. This is the point of signing a lot of guys and having not only great camp competition bit vets for the younger players to learn from.

I personally think it's great that the Pats are one of the younger teams in the league now. If younger guys are stepping up and beating out vets that is a great sign for the future.

As for Salas... really? Two teams are needed for a trade. And they can cut anybody they want for somebody they pick up on waivers. Of course 30 other teams have to not want them first. They must all be ******* stupid.

Did I mention injuries?

You need to broaden your repertoire.

 

[mayoclinic]

Although I disagree with the OP, I think people are being a little too harsh on him. It is too early to judge how successfull the offeason personnel changes are. It's probably fair to say that it was a successfull offseason in some areas, ( Draft, DE/OLB, Secondary) flawed in other areas such as the OLine.

The offensive line is the only area we are clearly worse off than last year. We cant exempt the coaching staff from this fact. I beleive in the end, theyll pull it together, Wendell may be more legit than we think, especially knowing he made it over Koppen.

This is reasonable.

I'm not trying to be harsh on the OP. But I think BB's focus has always been to make the team better, regardless of how it happens. Some moves work out, other's don't. He's not clairvoyant, and so he hedges his bets. The Pats routinely bring lots of players in for evaluation. The bottom end of the roster is constantly in flux. This is no different from other years. Sometimes guys unexpectedly step up - Rob Ninkovich and Kyle Arrington were both low profile guys brought in for their ST ability and to provide training camp bodies who stepped up to the challenge and grew into larger roles. Sometimes guys unexpectedly flop - Chris Baker looked great in training camp in 2009 but did nothing during the regular season, and became a locker room problem as well.

Looking at the Pats' roster compared to 2011, I agree with you that the only position which appears weaker is OL. And the Pats loaded up in the offseason. At one point we had Light, Solder ,Vollmer, Mankins, Waters, Connolly, Gallery, Cannon, McDonald and Wendell. Some of the change has been outside of BB's control - Light and Gallery retiring, Waters not reporting. Some has been a conscious decision by the coaching staff to move on - cutting Koppen in favor of the young guys. Given Scar's track record, I think they've deserved the benefit of the doubt that they'll get things sorted out.

I think that part of the OP's premise is that money spent on FAs who don't work out is "wasted". I suspect that BB doesn't look at it that way - it's the price you pay for an insurance policy and for roster depth and competition. As long as the final product ends up being stronger, it's acceptable.