Interesting claim: The Jets are more talented than the Patriots by a wide margin

[Ring 6]

In 2006, Welker had 67 catches for 687 yds with only two starts with bust Joey Harrington and a washed up Dunte Culpepper throwing to him.

Welker is bad example for the argument you are trying to make.

Those 67 catches are more than Edwards has had in all but one season of his career.
Edwards caught just 53 passes this year, and 35 in 12 games with the Jets last year.
That is horrendous production for a WR.
Edwards was a good college player who had 1 good NFL season, and has been thoroughly mediocre in every other season of his career.
If Edwards is a good WR there are about 50 good WRs in the NFL.

 

[Ring 6]

Those 67 catches are more than Edwards has had in all but one season of his career.
Edwards caught just 53 passes this year, and 35 in 12 games with the Jets last year.
That is horrendous production for a WR.
Edwards was a good college player who had 1 good NFL season, and has been thoroughly mediocre in every other season of his career.
If Edwards is a good WR there are about 50 good WRs in the NFL.

Edwards was 54th in receptions this season.
And while many players at that low end of the list are there because they play with a WR across from them getting a lot of throws, Holmes was 56th.

And before the excuse making begins that the Jets didnt throw a lot, they had the 18th most pass attempts in the NFL, 1 a game belopw the average...amd 18 more than the Patriots.

 

[ALP]

well, lets see:

pick a QB:
brady -------
sanchez

pick 2 rb's:
LT
greene
BJGE -------
woodhead -------

pick 2 wrs:
welker -----
branch
tate
braylon
holmes ------
cotchery

pick 1 te:
gronk ----
hernandez
keller

ill skip the o line, but yea, the jets are easily more talented :bricks:

 

[ATippett56]

ill skip the o line, but yea, the jets are easily more talented :bricks:

Care to retract that statement?

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: Final 2010 Offensive Hog Index

 

[bogey888]

Part of that is true. Give Brady Holmes, Edwards, Crotchery, Keller, and that defense they probably are unstoppable.

Luckily, Sanchez is one of the worst qbs in the league and Brady is the best.

.....disagree. I'd rather have our recievers.

 

[Fahrenhype]

He isn't claiming that Brady is a product of a system, so that is far from being the dumbest statement of the week. In a lot of situations he is probably looking at prior performance and concluding the Jets are the winners in that regard. I'll take BJGE and Woodhead tandem over what LT has become. Both teams have one very good corner. Jets have more experience at the linebacker and safety position, though I don't know if you can call it skill since I don't hear a whole lot about Bart Scott these days. It's not like the Jets defense has been scaring anyone lately.

There are also going to be some straight up position to position comparisons that favor another team but the Pats secondary isn't playing against the Jets secondary. I'll take the roster Belichick has assembled. They already willfully exported talent in Moss in order to go with what works. It has been working just fine, and will continue to do so.

 

[Ring 6]

The Sporting News says McCourty is better than Revis, based on their AllPro selections. (And it isnt because Revis missed games because asante is the other corner and he missed 5 games)

 

[Deus Irae]

As an aside, and as an example I don't know how fair it is to just dismiss someone like LadyT in comparison to Woodhead. While I agree that LadyT faded down the stretch, I think the point should be which is currently more talented (as translated into verfiable NFL productivity). I'd still take Woodhead because of LadyT's fade, but I'm not going to pretend that LadyT doesn't bring some things to the table that Woodhead doesn't.

In other words, if a guy's a system guy, let's take that into account.

 

[ATippett56]

As an aside, and as an example I don't know how fair it is to just dismiss someone like LadyT in comparison to Woodhead. While I agree that LadyT faded down the stretch, I think the point should be which is currently more talented (as translated into verfiable NFL productivity). I'd still take Woodhead because of LadyT's fade, but I'm not going to pretend that LadyT doesn't bring some things to the table that Woodhead doesn't.

In other words, if a guy's a system guy, let's take that into account.

Lady T is in the twilight of his career, Woodhead is entering his prime years. Going forward, Woodhead provides more value due to his youth. Furthermore, Woodhead plays special teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

Lady T is in the twilight of his career, Woodhead is entering his prime years. Going forward, Woodhead provides more value due to his youth. Furthermore, Woodhead plays special teams.

Future value is irrelevant. I'm talking about current "talent", as per the quoted poster.

 

[Fahrenhype]

As an aside, and as an example I don't know how fair it is to just dismiss someone like LadyT in comparison to Woodhead. While I agree that LadyT faded down the stretch, I think the point should be which is currently more talented (as translated into verfiable NFL productivity). I'd still take Woodhead because of LadyT's fade, but I'm not going to pretend that LadyT doesn't bring some things to the table that Woodhead doesn't.

In other words, if a guy's a system guy, let's take that into account.

Tomlinson is a future hall of famer, I don't think anyone is doubting that. But he isn't the same player that set the TD record and won MVP a few years ago. Going by what you'd get right now I'm quite happy with what the Pats have done with their roster. Is Deion Branch objectively on par with Moss in terms of skills and the type of career he has had? Of course not. But Deion Branch also hasn't seen his production come to a stand still as a Patriot while moping about a long term contract.

What a guy is capable of at his peak, or while he doesn't have dollar signs in his eyes, isn't always what you get in the present. Belichick has been as cold and calculating as anyone in not letting sentimentality get in the way of building the best roster he can within the confines of a salary cap and free agency that keeps teams from retaining every great player like they used to be able to.

Inexperience on the defensive side is a much greater concern to me than any particular position comparison or who has the most "skill" on paper.

 

[Kontradiction]

I said in another thread that I give us the clear cut advantage at QB, O-Line (as a unit), TE, NT, ILB, and Safety, with arguments to be made about RB, WR2, and WR3. But I'll do a whole breakdown. Why not?

Offense:

QB - Brady over Sanchez
RB1 - BJGE over Greene
RB2 - Tomlinson over Woodhead
LT - Light over Ferguson
LG - Mankins over Slauson
C - Mangold over Koppen
RG - Moore over Connolly (I would put Neal ahead of Moore though)
RT - Vollmer over Woody and/or Hunter
TE1 - Gronk over Keller
TE2 - Hernandez over Hartsock
WR1 - Holmes over Tate
WR2 - Branch over Edwards
WR3 - Welker over Cotchery

Defense:

LDE - Ellis over G. Warren
NT - Wilfork over Pouha/DeVito
RDE - Pryce over Deaderick/Brace
OLB - TBC over Bryan Thomas
ILB - Mayo over Bart Scott
ILB - Harris over Spikes (right now anyway)
OLB - Pace/Taylor over Cunningham/Ninkovich
LCB - Revis over Arrington
RCB - McCourty over Cromartie
S1 - Meriweather over Smith
S2 - Chung over Pool

Special Teams:

P - Mesko over Weatherford
K - Even
Units - Pats over Jets, but by a small margin.

No brainers, IMO, include: Brady over Sanchez, Mankins over Slauson, Mangold over Koppen, Hernandez over Hartsock, Holmes over Tate, Welker over Cotchery, Wilfork over Pouha or DeVito, Ellis over Warren, Mayo over Scott, Pace/Taylor over Cunningham/Ninkovich, both CB positions, Meriweather over Smith.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

This is a thread from ganggreen

not only can we win, we should beat these clowns. They have Tom Brady and a bunch of high schoolers!! Every time i think about the fact that we lost by 42 to these ****suckers I just wanna throw up. Beside Brady I can't think of one player on their team worth mentioning. Who is their running back? Ben Jarvus Green Ellis?? Danny ****** Woodhead? Goddamn Wes Welker the scrawny piece of **** that he is is a threat? 45 year old deion branch we cant stop him? A couple of rookie tight ends?? Fernandez or Hernandez or Martiniez or whatever the **** is name is and Gronkowski? What about their defense?? Goddamn rookies left and right! Honestly the only way the Jets dont win this game is if they played like a bunch of scared ****ies like last time, because its all mental. The jets are way more ****** talented, but they were a bunch vadges in that MNF game from the word goddamn go. Now let's start believing were better than these ****less chowderheads, and we'll win the ****** game!

This Pats team is not THAT good!! - TheGangGreen.com Message Board

Read the comments..HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Holy Diver]

My dad can beat up the Jet's dad

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, there doesn't seem to be any major uproar against my O-line list, so I'll edit my first post on the "talent" breakdown to add that in. What about TE?


Does anyone have a problem going with Gronk/Keller as the two TEs?

 

[alamo]

What's REALLY funny is Saturday afternoon I looked at Gang Green for a bit. The thread I focused on was called "Not feeling it" or something to that extent. And it was basically almost all the posters on that site saying they thought they had no chance in hell, how they were ready to go into the offseason and make the changes to get better next year, ect ect.

Then Sunday I went back and it was all about how there is no way the Jets lose in New England.

They are a lot more similar to us here sometimes than we like to admit.

 

[Kontradiction]

Well, there doesn't seem to be any major uproar against my O-line list, so I'll edit my first post on the "talent" breakdown to add that in. What about TE?


Does anyone have a problem going with Gronk/Keller as the two TEs?

Wouldn't we be directly comparing Gronk to Keller, though? Those are officially both teams' #1 TE's. In that even, I take Gronk over Keller not only due to his pass catching abilities, but also his blocking abilities. In that event, we would also compare Hernandez to Hartsock. I would clearly take Hernandez in that case.

 

[jays52]

Does anyone have a problem going with Gronk/Keller as the two TEs?

Maybe, man. I think that Gronk/Hartsock would be a more accurate comparison in terms of skill set. I think Hernandez matches up with Keller, because I don't think either are tight ends. It may be trivial, and I guess we should be going 1v1, but in terms of comparable skill sets we're talking apples and oranges.

 

[mgteich]

And how good would our players be if we had Sanchez at QB and the jets coaching staff?

In the end, I agree that the jets are more talented than we are. HOWEVER, having Brady at QB and having our coaching staff makes our players to be better players, not more talented. We call this "team" and lots of other stuff. To me, it is coaching, leadership, and having the best QB in the nfl.

For example, I have ZERO question that if you swapped Brick and Light, their performance would be different playing for the other team. Light would look worse and Brick would look better. Brick would be a probowl LT for us and perhaps an elite LT.
=========
BOTTOM LINE

As someone else put it, how many games per year you think it's worth to have Brady, Belichick and staff and Kraft. I think that we'd be 4 games a year worse with their ownership, coaching and quarterback.

But the teams are NOT 4 games different each year. One conclusion is that (on average) the rest of the players are better on the jets. We have some that are better of course (Wilfork, Mankins, Mayo) and they have some.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wouldn't we be directly comparing Gronk to Keller, though? Those are officially both teams' #1 TE's. In that even, I take Gronk over Keller not only due to his pass catching abilities, but also his blocking abilities. In that event, we would also compare Hernandez to Hartsock. I would clearly take Hernandez in that case.

Well, when you're talking talent on the O-line, it's pretty easy. The same 5 are out there pretty much all the time. WR and TE are a bit more fungible. Your post had Welker/Cotchery, for example, and there's no way that would be the real matchup if you were going in order of who's "really" the team's #1 receiver and so on:

Welker
Branch
Tate

v

Holmes
Edwards
Cotchery

I'm trying to be fair and consistent, because I'd like to limit the "Patriots bias!" as much as possible, and I'm certainly open to discussion and persuasion on this, as I'm trying to find ways to make the comparisons as 'fair' as can be. Keller is a pass catching TE who's built like Hernandez and plays much more like him than he does Gronkowski, since he's not much of a blocker.


My take:

TEs
Gronk
Keller
Crumpler/Hernandez
Hartsock

Outside wideouts
Holmes
Edwards
Branch
Tate

Slot receivers/Third receivers
Welker
Cotchery

I'm assembling talent here, not making a team.