Tom Brady Was the Most-Hit QB in the League, from 2006-2007

[Deus Irae]

your opinion isnt needed...
the fact that you sit on one message board (unless your a troll)
means that you are an avid supporter of the patriots and you dont like to see outside sources, so i hope the offensive line is better this year because tom brady wont be rushing 73 times like matt did,

Fact matt threw 63.4 percent of his passes for a 7.2 yard average...
Fact matt Ran 73 times for a 3.7 yard average

now that i gave some facts.. wouldnt you rather him throw than get SCared into running.. obviously his 73 rushes were a sign of him being harrased.. but if you dont like good football conversations maybe you should find the bridge you assume im hiding under and sit under it... because some how you got almost 10 thousand post by saying "troll" "go under the bridge"

p.s. I dont really expect you to respond with a brilliant response..
i expect "troll!"

No, this isn't trolling, per se, it's just a terrible use of numbers.

First of all, Cassel is a running QB, and he had running plays designed for him.

Second, Cassel is a running QB, and he's going to run to escape pass rush far more often than Brady would rather than stand in the pocket, and he's going to sometimes just take off even if the rush isn't coming yet (the "I see daylight" sort of plays that Belichick himself noted were a part of the game with Cassel). Neither of those is any guarantee of being harassed, and neither of those necessarily reflects poorly on the offensive line.

Third, Cassel wasn't as good dealing with pressure in the beginning of the season as he was at the end, and that impacted the runs and the type of runs.

Fourth, the O-line wasn't nearly as good to start the season as it was after Neal came back from the PUP list, and that impacted Cassel in regards to the runs and the type of runs.

Fifth, Cassel's passing yardage versus his running yardage doesn't mean a damned thing.

Sixth, Cassel was sacked 47 times last year, but Brady's never been sacked that often and hasn't been sacked more than 26 times in any of his last 4 full seasons.

Seventh, while Light and Neal are starting to get up there in years, Koppen and Kaczur are in their primes along with Mankins. While I wanted the Patriots to draft Clady and Oher, respectively, in the last two years, neither was to fill an immediate need. The issue with the line really won't take center stage until after this season, assuming the line stays relatively injury free. If injuries strike, it will be no different than it would be with any line in the game today: it will become less effective.

Eighth, we also understand that one of the things that separates Brady from other quarterbacks in the NFL is that he will hold the ball until absolutely the last millisecond before throwing it if he thinks that will lead to a better player. We realize that, as a result, 'hits' isn't going to mean the same for him as they would for a guy like Manning who likes to get rid of the ball as soon as he feels pressure. Differences in style like this, along with other variables, make a plain stat like 'hits' all but meaningless without the surrounding data and context.

As for the "one board" thing, you're not even close.

 

[Smith21]

No, this isn't trolling, per se, it's just a terrible use of numbers.

First of all, Cassel is a running QB, and he had running plays designed for him.

Second, Cassel is a running QB, and he's going to run to escape pass rush far more often than Brady would rather than stand in the pocket, and he's going to sometimes just take off even if the rush isn't coming yet (the "I see daylight" sort of plays that Belichick himself noted were a part of the game with Cassel). Neither of those is any guarantee of being harassed, and neither of those necessarily reflects poorly on the offensive line.

Third, Cassel wasn't as good dealing with pressure in the beginning of the season as he was at the end, and that impacted the runs and the type of runs.

Fourth, the O-line wasn't nearly as good to start the season as it was after Neal came back from the PUP list, and that impacted Cassel in regards to the runs and the type of runs.

Fifth, Cassel's passing yardage versus his running yardage doesn't mean a damned thing.

Sixth, Cassel was sacked 47 times last year, but Brady's never been sacked that often and hasn't been sacked more than 26 times in any of his last 4 full seasons.

Seventh, while Light and Neal are starting to get up there in years, Koppen and Kaczur are in their primes along with Mankins. While I wanted the Patriots to draft Clady and Oher, respectively, in the last two years, neither was to fill an immediate need. The issue with the line really won't take center stage until after this season, assuming the line stays relatively injury free. If injuries strike, it will be no different than it would be with any line in the game today: it will become less effective.

Eighth, we also understand that one of the things that separates Brady from other quarterbacks in the NFL is that he will hold the ball until absolutely the last millisecond before throwing it if he thinks that will lead to a better player. We realize that, as a result, 'hits' isn't going to mean the same for him as they would for a guy like Manning who likes to get rid of the ball as soon as he feels pressure. Differences in style like this, along with other variables, make a plain stat like 'hits' all but meaningless without the surrounding data and context.

As for the "one board" thing, you're not even close.

good post... im still under the impression matt cassel is a passing qb.
he threw the ball 516 time and ran the ball 73 times so your use of numbers isnt the greatest either but hey we all have flaws right?, he might not be as slow as brady so you could assume he was a rushing qb but he is no sprinter.. he ran the 40 yard dash in 4.9 seconds and that is closer to wiforks 40 than maroney's..

the patriots offensive line just in my opinion is behind the jets and dolphins as far as offensive lines go.. and I believe (but im just a troll) that offensive line is a big part of qb play, with 2 pro bowl receivers you dont see the effect as much because teams cant blitz as often as they want to.. but with a slower than before brady.. i just feel they need to play a little different of a game, just be thankful Fred taylor is still a valuable check down receiver with his 40+ catches last year and 400+ yards.. im not sure the exact number..

sorry i had to edit this in.. i literally lol'd when i saw
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th and 8th... not about the points just because it was funny how you numbered you responses..
btw.. im a dolphins fan =)

 

[unoriginal]

good post... im still under the impression matt cassel is a passing qb.
he threw the ball 516 time and ran the ball 73 times

That's over 50% more QB scrambles than Brady usually provides, and ties him for the league lead in QB carries with David Garrard.

 

[Smith21]

That's over 50% more QB scrambles than Brady usually provides, and ties him for the league lead in QB carries with David Garrard.

David Garrad was behind one of the most banged up Horrid o-lines in the League..
and my point was that he ran more than he should have..
so whats yours???

maybe im wrong garrard did have a couple 20+ yard runs.. i can remember 1 decent run from cassel also

 

[unoriginal]

David Garrad was behind one of the most banged up Horrid o-lines in the League..
and my point was that he ran more than he should have..
so whats yours???
Are you also implying that Garrard is a running qb?
he doubled his rushing yards from 07 (when his o-line played better)

I am implying that David Garrard is a running QB. He will often pull the ball down and run in throw-away situations, and Del Rio will call bootlegs and QB dives to make the defense spy him.

That Pats had to spy him with their WILB in their 2007 playoff game.

 

[unoriginal]

For an example of a QB who is not a running QB, consider Ben Roethlisberger.

Despite playing behind some pretty miserable pass blocking lines and being a well-known scrambler in a play action offense, Roethlisberger has topped 50 attempts only once in his career, his rookie year. In the other 4 seasons he has averaged only 33 rushes.

 

[Deus Irae]

good post... im still under the impression matt cassel is a passing qb.
he threw the ball 516 time and ran the ball 73 times so your use of numbers isnt the greatest either but hey we all have flaws right?, he might not be as slow as brady so you could assume he was a rushing qb but he is no sprinter.. he ran the 40 yard dash in 4.9 seconds and that is closer to wiforks 40 than maroney's..

1.) Number of times running vs. passing doesn't show any flaw in my use of numbers. As Unoriginal noted, Cassel is a scrambler. Brady, clearly, is not.

2.) Cassel's 40 time has nothing to do with his scrambling ability, obviously.

the patriots offensive line just in my opinion is behind the jets and dolphins as far as offensive lines go.. and I believe (but im just a troll) that offensive line is a big part of qb play, with 2 pro bowl receivers you dont see the effect as much because teams cant blitz as often as they want to.. but with a slower than before brady.. i just feel they need to play a little different of a game, just be thankful Fred taylor is still a valuable check down receiver with his 40+ catches last year and 400+ yards.. im not sure the exact number..

Fred Taylor caught 16 passes last season. The rest of this is your opinion, and really not worth arguing about. Putting the Patriots line 3rd of that group? Ok, you go with that and I'll just note that I disagree and point out a couple of facts on the way out. In Green Bay the year before last, Favre was sacked 16 times. He was sacked 30 times last year. Meanwhile, the Dolphins were so unhappy with their center play that they made a trade with the Raiders. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm entitled to disagree. So, moving on...

sorry i had to edit this in.. i literally lol'd when i saw
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th and 8th... not about the points just because it was funny how you numbered you responses..
btw.. im a dolphins fan =)

I'm not a big bullet point guy, so I use numbers. For that post, I wrote them out for a change of pace.

 

[Smith21]

1.) Number of times running vs. passing doesn't show any flaw in my use of numbers. As Unoriginal noted, Cassel is a scrambler. Brady, clearly, is not.

2.) Cassel's 40 time has nothing to do with his scrambling ability, obviously.



Fred Taylor caught 16 passes last season. The rest of this is your opinion, and really not worth arguing about. Putting the Patriots line 3rd of that group? Ok, you go with that and I'll just note that I disagree and point out a couple of facts on the way out. In Green Bay the year before last, Favre was sacked 16 times. He was sacked 30 times last year. Meanwhile, the Dolphins were so unhappy with their center play that they made a trade with the Raiders. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm entitled to disagree. So, moving on...



I'm not a big bullet point guy, so I use numbers. For that post, I wrote them out for a change of pace.

should i pull out stats.. from Steve McNair Fran Tarkenton Micheal Vick Steve Young & Randell Cunnigham
to prove my point that he isnt a running qb??...

I appologize for giving taylor the benefit of the doubt i was reading his stats a few days ago, my mind was thinking of the 1998 season.. not the 2008 season i guess because you were right.

the dolphins did not trade for jake grove...
he was a Major, FA signing.. and than they traded away samson satele, for a 6th round pick, which proves that he wasnt a good center because you dont lose 4 rounds of value starting 32 games if you are good.

 

[unoriginal]

should i pull out stats.. from Steve McNair Fran Tarkenton Micheal Vick Steve Young & Randell Cunnigham
to prove my point that he isnt a running qb??

"Running QB" is not a title like "The Highlander," where there can be only one running QB at a time in the league.

 

[Deus Irae]

should i pull out stats.. from Steve McNair Fran Tarkenton Micheal Vick Steve Young & Randell Cunnigham
to prove my point that he isnt a running qb??...

I appologize for giving taylor the benefit of the doubt i was reading his stats a few days ago, my mind was thinking of the 1998 season.. not the 2008 season i guess because you were right.

the dolphins did not trade for jake grove...
he was a Major, FA signing.. and than they traded away samson satele, for a 6th round pick, which proves that he wasnt a good center because you dont lose 4 rounds of value starting 32 games if you are good.

Yes, I miswrote about Grove. Other than that, everything stands the same. As for Grove being a "major" signing, I suppose time will tell. It still doesn't somehow cause that line to leap up over the Patriots. Someone down in Dolphins land seems to grasp that:

Dolphins’ issues at guard holding back O-line with a lot invested in it | Miami Dolphins news, training updates, injury reports, trades & more ? The Daily Dolphin blog

And, once again, Unoriginal is trying to clarify and explain the running/scrambling QB concept, so I'll leave that in his more-than-capable hands.

 

[DaBruinz]

i just have to say.. only patriots fan can figure out how having the worst stat about something in the league really isnt that bad..


to be a good Team you need to be good in part of the game.. how do we judge that?? statS!
but hey maybe letting your qb take the hits because they didnt want to leave that extra half back in to chip the linebacker...maybe theres an upside to that also..
it allowed for matt cassell to run something like 71 times..(scared 55 of those times im sure)
and if it wasnt for that 270 yards, the patriots rush offense would of been outside the top ten..
soo i guess there is a plus side!!

Hits are not an OFFICIAL stat. Stats without perspective are meaningless.

That is what you fail to understand. That is what Maverick fails to understand.

For instance, your comment about Cassel running and being scared 75% of the time. I'd be willing to bet that the Patriots called more than 24 runs for him. Why? Because he has speed and it gave them another option to keep the opposing defenses off-guard.

Also, you are incorrect when you say that if you take away Cassel's rushing yardage that the Patriots would be outside the top 10. The Pats ran for 2278 yards last year. You take away Cassel's 270 yards and that leaves the Pats with 2008 yards on the season. And that would be good enough for 8th place.

So, you've failed to add anything to the conversation. Good job.

 

[DaBruinz]

The "option" in option offense means the QB has at least one run read on most plays. It has nothing to do with passing routes.

TriplecHamp is right in that the shotgun spread as run by Tom Brady and the Pats does not often call for Brady to key for a crashing end, fake the dive to Kevin Faulk, then run a sweep. Nor does the deep horseshoe pocket protection the Pats use favor a run option on pass plays without an audible.

I beg to differ. In fact, I would say that Brady has the option of calling a run or pass based on whatever he reads the defense to be. THAT is having an OPTION.

Also, over the history of football, the OPTION mean that the BACK, whether it be the Full, Half or Quarterback, could run or pass the ball on a given play. However, as the roles of players have changed of the history of football, what is to say that the meaning of descriptions of plays haven't changed? Can you HONESTLY say that they haven't?

And he's right in that the pass/run ratios reflect this. Spread option offenses like what West Virginia, Florida, and Texas run give the QB the unilateral ability to tuck and run the ball on just about every play, run or pass. Consequently they tend to run near 2/3rds of the time and the QB usually leads them in rushing attempts, since he'll be the carrier on nearly half the running plays and a sizable minority of the passing plays.

Sorry, Unoriginal, but you are wrong in that the pass/run ratios reflect the type of offense. Just like Triple was wrong. The Pass/run rations reflect NOTHING in regards to what type of system a team runs. Lets take the Patriots for example. Here are what the Patriots Pass/Run rations (excluding sacks) have been over the past 5 years:

2008: 534 PAs / 513 RAs = 51.5 / 48.5
2007: 586 / 451 = 56.5 / 43.5
2006: 527 / 499 = 51.4/48.6
2005: 564 / 439 = 56.2 / 45.8
2004: 485 / 524 = 48.1 / 51.9


How can you tell what kind of offense they were running from those numbers???? You can't.

College being college a normal spread team will still run half the time or more, but the QB won't be anywhere close to the leader in carries.

I disagree with his other points however.

From JUST the Pass/Run ration, you can't tell anything about a teams offense other than if they pass or run more. If you were to look at the breakdown of who got how many running plays, then you could better tell the type of offense a team was running. But that isn't what Triplechamp referred to.

 

[DaBruinz]

your opinion isnt needed...

Neither is your ignorant one. Yet you've deigned to inflict it upon everyone.

the fact that you sit on one message board (unless your a troll)
means that you are an avid supporter of the patriots and you dont like to see outside sources, so i hope the offensive line is better this year because tom brady wont be rushing 73 times like matt did,

Fact matt threw 63.4 percent of his passes for a 7.2 yard average...
Fact matt Ran 73 times for a 3.7 yard average

Your first fact is wrong. Matt COMPLETED 63.4% of his passes. However, they did not result in a 7.2 yard average. That 7.2 yards is yards per ATTEMPT. Which is different than yards per completion.

Yes, Cassel ran 73 times. But as I pointed out in a previous reply, how do you offer up no context in which those runs were made. You just claim that 75% of them were because he was scared. Yet you have no proof of that.

now that i gave some facts.. wouldnt you rather him throw than get SCared into running.. obviously his 73 rushes were a sign of him being harrased.. but if you dont like good football conversations maybe you should find the bridge you assume im hiding under and sit under it... because some how you got almost 10 thousand post by saying "troll" "go under the bridge"

Are they a sign of him being harassed? Or are they a sign of Belichick recognizing that he has a more mobile QB and using that?

Only an ignorant person looks at someone's post count and assumes that it means something other than the person has been on the board a long time.

So far, you've not brought anything to the conversation.

p.s. I dont really expect you to respond with a brilliant response..
i expect "troll!"

Of course you don't. But then, you've not brought anything of value to the conversation to begin with.

 

[Bring Back Antowain!]

I think it has to do more with fearlessness than offensive line protection. Brady is never afraid to stand in the pocket wait for his receiver, take time with his throw, and take the hit.

All of the quarterbacks on that list were similar types of old-school passers.

 

[DaBruinz]

So, am I to infer then that Brady gets hit even more than the study claims?

I find that very, very disturbing.

This Offensive Line is not getting better, folks; it's getting older, and getting worse. And unless SeaBass becomes the next Michael Roos, there is no help whatsoever on the horizon - near or distant.

Since the study doesn't include sacks, then yes, you should infer that EVERY QB gets hit more than the study claims. Not just Brady. Though, it would have been nice if they INCLUDED sacks since it would have been a much more interesting study.

Why do you find that disturbing? They are football players. They get hit. Its part of the game.

As for Seabass being the next Michael Roos. Why? Because you are a Chicken Little with no concept of reality who over-reacts to every negative thing. Someone who goes out of his way to claim he knows more about drafting than Belichick, yet you are still here posting on a message board and not working for an NFL team.

Stone, just stick to your wacky weed...

 

[Ring 6]

So, am I to infer then that Brady gets hit even more than the study claims?

I find that very, very disturbing.

This Offensive Line is not getting better, folks; it's getting older, and getting worse. And unless SeaBass becomes the next Michael Roos, there is no help whatsoever on the horizon - near or distant.

Did you really think that he got touched less than 3 times a game? 80-some in 32 games?
QBs get hit.
Football players play football. You can create a system where you never risk your Q B getting hit and you will have a very healthy loser.

 

[Ring 6]

So, am I to infer then that Brady gets hit even more than the study claims?

I find that very, very disturbing.

This Offensive Line is not getting better, folks; it's getting older, and getting worse. And unless SeaBass becomes the next Michael Roos, there is no help whatsoever on the horizon - near or distant.

Kaczur, Koppen and Mankins are young players clearly in the getting better stage than the old near the end stage.
Light is going into his 9th year, hardly the end of the line for an OT.
None have been injury prone.

Neal is the only player who may have age or durability concerns, and he has only played about 5 seasons of football in his life.

You definitely are overblowing that issue.

 

[unoriginal]

I beg to differ. In fact, I would say that Brady has the option of calling a run or pass based on whatever he reads the defense to be. THAT is having an OPTION.

If he needs to audible to apprise other players of his intentions that is not option football, that is field generalship.

Goosing the center also doesn't count as option football.

Also, over the history of football, the OPTION mean that the BACK, whether it be the Full, Half or Quarterback, could run or pass the ball on a given play. However, as the roles of players have changed of the history of football, what is to say that the meaning of descriptions of plays haven't changed? Can you HONESTLY say that they haven't?

You're referring to a specific pass play called "option," aka the option pass. It usually takes the form of a halfback pass designed to look like a sweep, and it turns into a sweep if the contain defenders (at least the playside safety or corner) haven't bitten on the sweep. Philosophically it isn't much different from a QB sprint-out. However, neither of these describe anything more than counter or trick plays, and they aren't the "option" in "spread option" or "option offense," just like the "option route" isn't the basis for either of the above.

"Option" in the sense we are using it in refers to an offense that uses run reads and pitches by the initial ball carrier (the QB) to take the primary defenders playside (usually the tackle and end) out of most run plays. The playside blockers this frees up attack the second level of the defense and seal it, creating wide off-tackle and sweep corridors for the QB and tailback on the classic outside veer option play.

This is philosophically different from non-option offenses, which use play fakes to freeze 2nd level defenders while the offensive line is responsible for the playside defensive linemen.

Rob0729's astute but brief point from eariler that "the option does not define Urban Meyer's spread offense" is correct in that Meyer's running offense mixes normal, QB play fakes style stuff with zone read plays that are simple option plays, but the offensive line is less concerned with attacking the 2nd level (the spread has evaporated the linebacker box) then in getting zone movement from the defensive line.

From JUST the Pass/Run ration, you can't tell anything about a teams offense other than if they pass or run more. If you were to look at the breakdown of who got how many running plays, then you could better tell the type of offense a team was running. But that isn't what Triplechamp referred to.

I didn't take TriplecHamp's meaning so strictly when he said "all you have to do is look at the pass/run ratios." Yes, in that sense, TriplecHamp is wrong and you are technically correct. I usually look at stats in a wider context so I missed this particular quibble.

 

[BradyFTW!]

"Running QB" is not a title like "The Highlander," where there can be only one running QB at a time in the league.

It is true that you can only kill a running QB by chopping off his head though

 

[RDS11]

Well guys, as a statistician I feel like I have to give my 2 cents...

Just providing a bunch of numbers is meaningless. If used without context, you can build them into anything you want them to show. Moreover, if your sample (in that case, the numbers of QB hits) was collected without a well defined method, then it is useless.

Now, if you have a good method for collecting your sample (or data...for football that would be the statistics that are ''officials'' and recorded by Elias Sports Bureau) and you can make a correlation to something that is relevant, then we are talking. For example, if the QB hits was an official statistic and there was correlation between the numbers of hits per game and the numbers of games missed because of injuries, then we would have something.

But for now, we don't even know how the QB hits statistic was collected and this data is not related to anything. There's no conclusion anybody can make out of this. It is only data, and not even a good sample as that.